Gender

[Thalassa]

Everyone's experience is different--literally. Gender dysphoria is a mixture of both nature and nurture. It is not identifying the the gender you were assigned with at birth. This can include the gender role as well (the "nurture" aspect of it). It may look peculiar to some, that I'm a trans man and yet I still like "girly" things and I'm not hypermasculine. Though that very much does not make my gender dysphoria any less real than anyone else's. Trans people experience gender dysphoria to differing extents I think, but the bottom line is that all of us are so strongly affected by it, that we can't just throw it on a shelf and forget about it without damaging ourselves psychologically. It's hard to accept at first, at least it was for me. I first identified as genderfluid before I began identifying as trans--all I knew at first is that I just wasn't cis. Eventually I realized that every day was a "boy day." And then I mulled on it for months. I wanted to be absolutely sure with myself at my core that the dysphoria I was experiencing was real and not the cause of something else. And once I accepted that, well, that was it.

Body dysphoria is related, but different. There are trans people who don't see it as necessary to transition. While gender dysphoria is more about the social aspect of it--of being seen as the correct gender, passing for it, being identified as it, etc. body dysphoria is more about the physical aspect--of feeling so uncomfortable in your own skin that you can't even look at yourself in the mirror, feeling trapped and unable to escape. I often have to suppress panic attacks at school when I feel like my binder isn't getting me flat enough. Body dysphoria I think is definitely more of a spectrum. And--since I vaguely remember talking to you about dysphoria shortly after I joined, nearly a year ago--things like wanting to be shorter or taller don't really count as body dysphoria, at least in the sense that I am talking about. That's more of a "Oh, if only I was, that'd be nice..." sort of thing, whereas for trans folk, it's more of a "If I can't live in the body I want/I identify with then I'm at a higher risk of suicide" sort of thing. That is causes panic, anxiety, and strong psychological discomfort.

Can provide clarification if necessary!

And remember, everyone's experience is different. Trans people experience dysphoria to varying degrees and in different ways. The above is my understanding/experience.

How do you, personally, as an individual, I'm not trying to ask you to speak for a community of people or for other trans men, feel about the radical feminist suggestion is what you are experiencing is not dysphoria, that you are simply a woman who didn't conform to the submission process of being a fuck object (much how they believe trans women are simply men who reject the emotionally dead subject who others the object as non human) ...and you are just being yourself, because gender is just a symbolic hierchy in the first place, where females are marked as non human objects by sexualizing and physically restrictive clothing, systemically broken into submission.

What makes you different from a woman who sees herself as a subject rather than an object, since you still like "girly things" and don't have body dysphoria?

 

[Yama]

How do you, personally, as an individual, I'm not trying to ask you to speak for a community of people or for other trans men, about the radical feminist suggestion is what you are experiencing is not dysphoria, that you are simply a woman who didn't conform to the submission process of being a fuck object (much how they believe trans women are simply men who reject the emotionally dead subject who others the object as non human) ...and you are just being yourself, because gender is just a symbolic hierchy in the first place, where females are marked as non human objects by sexualizing and physically restrictive clothing, systemically broken into submission.

What makes you different from a woman who sees herself as a subject rather than an object, since you still like "girly things" and don't have body dysphoria?

Quick correction: I do have body dysphoria

As for the idea, I gave that exact notion a lot of thought before I started identifying as trans. A few months of mulling on it and assessing it and figuring out if there was any other root cause (a big one being what you have described here) or if it really was inherent. And I came to the conclusion that it really is inherent for me, that it's who I am. That I am a boy, and not a girl trying to escape the woman's gender role and sexual objectification.

I recently wrote a post in my private blog that touches on this topic a little bit that I can share with you if it would help answer a few of your questions. About me personally, and not about all trans men, of course.

Here is the direct link to that post.

To summarize it: I cannot imagine living the rest of my life as a woman, being seen as a woman, or being addressed as a woman without experiencing anxiety and dysphoria. To be perfectly honest I'd rather kill myself. The idea repulses me. Not because of the terrible shit women are put through in this society or because I want to run away from it, but because there is some part of me that just knows that this is how I'm supposed to be. It is very hard to describe in words.

Basically, women are allowed to like "boy" things. But men aren't allowed to like "girl" things. So my "girly" interests and personality traits "stick out" more than my "manly" ones. I think I actually have a rather androgynous personality. But I know I am a boy. And that liking a few girly things doesn't make me any less of a boy than any other boy, or even any other trans boys.

Because gender is very fluid, and you don't have to by hypermasculine or hyperfeminine to identify with either side of the spectrum. This is how I assume many cis people are who don't fit in with their gender stereotype, but don't identify as trans.

So I am not just trying to "run away" from women's problems, and that is not what creates my dysphoria. I made sure I gave that notion a lot of thought before I started allowing myself to identify as trans.

 

[Yama]

It is a very complicated topic. I'm trying to explain my experience the best I can, but it's incredibly difficult to put my feelings into words. If I could somehow transfer this feeling to you, and make you feel it, you would completely understand, and that would be that. But translating that into the physical realm, into sentences--it's so difficult for me.

Because really, I don't have all the answers. I'm not sure what aspects of myself and my gender identity are nature, and what is nurture. I don't know how my identity would change (or stay the same) had I been raised in a different culture with different gender roles or different conditions. And yet, at the same time, this is my core self. The most vulnerable, yet most central, piece of my identity.

And really, it is something that I have found myself worrying about. The idea that if I'm not hypermasculine, how could I possibly be a trans man? Never during this process of worrying was I unsure of my own gender, but rather my reception. That somehow, I had to "prove it." And that if I couldn't, that I'm "a liar" in the eyes of others, even though I'm not lying to myself.

I decided to throw that out the window. I've accepted that only I get to define myself. No one else. Just me. And that no, I don't have to "prove it" to others. Gender is so very, very complex. And a lot of it truly is irrational. What parts are caused by nature? What parts are caused by nurture? I just do not know the answer.

The only thing I am absolutely sure of is that I am completely comfortable with myself. I can safely say, with 100% certainty, that I am a boy. Because I have discussed with myself, over and over again, for countless hours, days, weeks, and months, what it is this "feeling" is. And I know what it is now. And I am proud of that. I feel very comfortable, very empowered, that I am at a place where I can accept myself without feeling ashamed.

It really is, as my therapist calls it, a "self-diagnosed" thing. No one else can tell someone if they are trans or not. Nor can anyone else validate those feelings or not. Only the individual who is experiencing them.

Since I have become comfortable with myself, I've found that I love discussing my experience with my gender. I love seeing how my experience compares and contrasts with others'. Because neither of us are "wrong." We are all different, and we are all valid.
[MENTION=6877]Marmotini[/MENTION], I like the way you address the topic. You ask solid questions and can phrase them in a way that isn't condescending or hateful. As have many others in this thread and elsewhere on the forum. (Mostly tagging you so you see my addition here in case it helps clarify any of my past post at all. )

 

[Thalassa]

It is a very complicated topic. I'm trying to explain my experience the best I can, but it's incredibly difficult to put my feelings into words. If I could somehow transfer this feeling to you, and make you feel it, you would completely understand, and that would be that. But translating that into the physical realm, into sentences--it's so difficult for me.

Because really, I don't have all the answers. I'm not sure what aspects of myself and my gender identity are nature, and what is nurture. I don't know how my identity would change (or stay the same) had I been raised in a different culture with different gender roles or different conditions. And yet, at the same time, this is my core self. The most vulnerable, yet most central, piece of my identity.

And really, it is something that I have found myself worrying about. The idea that if I'm not hypermasculine, how could I possibly be a trans man? Never during this process of worrying was I unsure of my own gender, but rather my reception. That somehow, I had to "prove it." And that if I couldn't, that I'm "a liar" in the eyes of others, even though I'm not lying to myself.

I decided to throw that out the window. I've accepted that only I get to define myself. No one else. Just me. And that no, I don't have to "prove it" to others. Gender is so very, very complex. And a lot of it truly is irrational. What parts are caused by nature? What parts are caused by nurture? I just do not know the answer.

The only thing I am absolutely sure of is that I am completely comfortable with myself. I can safely say, with 100% certainty, that I am a boy. Because I have discussed with myself, over and over again, for countless hours, days, weeks, and months, what it is this "feeling" is. And I know what it is now. And I am proud of that. I feel very comfortable, very empowered, that I am at a place where I can accept myself without feeling ashamed.

It really is, as my therapist calls it, a "self-diagnosed" thing. No one else can tell someone if they are trans or not. Nor can anyone else validate those feelings or not. Only the individual who is experiencing them.

Since I have become comfortable with myself, I've found that I love discussing my experience with my gender. I love seeing how my experience compares and contrasts with others'. Because neither of us are "wrong." We are all different, and we are all valid.

[MENTION=6877]Marmotini[/MENTION], I like the way you address the topic. You ask solid questions and can phrase them in a way that isn't condescending or hateful. As have many others in this thread and elsewhere on the forum. (Mostly tagging you so you see my addition here in case it helps clarify any of my past post at all. )

I don't think you are a "liar" at all - as long as you are being honest with your self. I apologize, I see now that you do have body dysphoria, which I think changes things considerably. My bad.

I'm actually more inclined to believe that it's genuine when someone like you is not trying too hard to conform to a stereotype - because those things aren't real. That's part of what I was trying to ascertain, not necessarily that you were running from women's problems, but that you simply don't and haven't ever seen yourself as an object and are disgusted as being seen as one ever again, thus the insistence on masculine pronouns and anxiety. I'm just clarifying that it's not a separation of what you know to be your real self from a repulsive social construct. Because those things are not real. Some people would say gender isn't fluid - it just simply does not exist outside of social manipulation in which males are all human subjects, and women are objects, along with animals, the earth, etc. ..which it is why it is seen as feminine or feminine power to see self as subject and also other living things as subject rather than objects to be used. (In case you are wondering where I got this all from, I'm not a rad fem, but I'm interested in the Deep Green Resistance as an environmentalist, and it lists the patriarchal male human subject everything else object as the underlying reason for insane environmental destruction).

Thank you for taking the time to explain your personal situation. I'm glad you feel very comfortable with who you are.

 

[Yama]

I don't think you are a "liar" at all - as long as you are being honest with your self. I apologize, I see now that you do have body dysphoria, which I think changes things considerably. My bad.

Well you don't need to apologize, you didn't do anything wrong.

I'm actually more inclined to believe that it's genuine when someone like you is not trying too hard to conform to a stereotype - because those things aren't real. That's part of what I was trying to ascertain, not necessarily that you were running from women's problems, but that you simply don't and haven't ever seen yourself as an object and are disgusted as being seen as one ever again, thus the insistence on masculine pronouns and anxiety. I'm just clarifying that it's not a separation of what you know to be your real self from a repulsive social construct. Because those things are not real. Some people would say gender isn't fluid - it just simply does not exist outside of social manipulation in which males are all human subjects, and women are objects, along with animals, the earth, etc. ..which it is why it is seen as feminine or feminine power to see self as subject and also other living things as subject rather than objects to be used. (In case you are wondering where I got this all from, I'm not a rad fem, but I'm interested in the Deep Green Resistance as an environmentalist, and it lists the patriarchal male human subject everything else object as the underlying reason for insane environmental destruction).

Thank you for taking the time to explain your personal situation. I'm glad you feel very comfortable with who you are.

Well I find that a little relieving, because sometimes I let my own insecurities about how I am perceived get to me too much.

But yes, I've never seen myself as an object (sexual or otherwise). Gender is really a fascinating subject because of this very reason.

I know just a little bit about ecofeminism and the deep green resistance, but I see how it connects.

Always happy to talk more if you've ever got more questions.

 

[anticlimatic]

What's the point of gender without gender roles?

 

[Firebird 8118]

What's the point of gender without gender roles?

What's the point of sexism (and reverse sexism) without gender roles?

 

[anticlimatic]

What's the point of sexism (and reverse sexism) without gender roles?

Sexism is a celebration of gender differences used to promote a healthy majority by putting most of the aces in most of their places.

 

[laterlazer]

I personally think the only thing all these long ass lists are good for is for someone to recognise that they're not alone in feeling a certain way, since there are clearly other people that feel the same. Outside of that they're basically pointless unless you like being labelled and want to feel part of a community then there's that too. I think it's kind of ridiculous if anyone expects people to know every single one of those genders. Like others have said, do what you want and be who you want, there's really no need for the labelling and complicating.

 

[Yama]

What's the point of gender without gender roles?

The point is that we shouldn't be restricted to or limited by those roles.

Are women who don't want to be wives and mothers not women because they don't fit into their gender role?

and inb4 "she's a woman because she has a vagina": Nope. I asked my mom how she knows she's a woman, and she said that she "just is." Her vagina was irrelevant to her identity.

 

[anticlimatic]

The point is that we shouldn't be restricted to or limited by those roles.

Are women who don't want to be wives and mothers not women because they don't fit into their gender role?

and inb4 "she's a woman because she has a vagina": Nope. I asked my mom how she knows she's a woman, and she said that she "just is." Her vagina was irrelevant to her identity.

So gender roles are fine in and of themselves?

 

[Yama]

So gender roles are fine in and of themselves?

If you want to abide by them, sure. Though others shouldn't have to if they don't want to. I've no problem with people who like their gender roles and choose to live by them.

 

[Coriolis]

What's the point of gender without gender roles?

Exactly.

So gender roles are fine in and of themselves?

I would say there is nothing wrong with the content of a gender role, if that cluster of behaviors is what someone truly prefers and wishes to follow in their own life. The idea of it being a role, i.e. a predetermined menu of behaviors that people are expected to demonstrate based on which set of genitalia or chromosomes they were born with, is where it can easily become limiting and also unrealistic.

 

[anticlimatic]

If you want to abide by them, sure. Though others shouldn't have to if they don't want to. I've no problem with people who like their gender roles and choose to live by them.

Sounds good to me. I personally like gender roles, and I don't define them as behaviors that everyone should automatically pursue. I think they are an objective set list of recommended tasks, methods, and and responsibilities that have been time-tested to be rewarding to either the masculine or feminine disposition, in general. I don't mind letting people choose what they want to do, but I don't like it when people try to discredit gender roles all together as an means to that end.

 

[Yama]

Sounds good to me. I personally like gender roles, and I don't define them as behaviors that everyone should automatically pursue. I think they are an objective set list of recommended tasks, methods, and and responsibilities that have been time-tested to be rewarding to either the masculine or feminine disposition, in general. I don't mind letting people choose what they want to do, but I don't like it when people try to discredit gender roles all together as an means to that end.

Yeah I like to take the "live and let live" approach. You like your gender role? Great! You don't like your gender role? Great! Y'all do what's best for you.

 

[anticlimatic]

I would say there is nothing wrong with the content of a gender role, if that cluster of behaviors is what someone truly prefers and wishes to follow in their own life. The idea of it being a role, i.e. a predetermined menu of behaviors that people are expected to demonstrate based on which set of genitalia or chromosomes they were born with, is where it can easily become limiting and also unrealistic.

There is a bit of murky indecision where the line between choice and objective standard lies. Some people think people should just make up their own roles for genders, some people think people should just make up their own genders for roles, with this that and the other in between. I think the merit of them is in the generationally polished traditionalism of the nuts and bolts. Human beings have 100 years or less to figure things out, and the knowledge of prior generations, even if written down, very seldom carries through to the next. Each has to relearn the same things, because we are empirical by nature. Some things manage to slip between the cracks of these walls, though- like religion, and tradition- and I think they should be respected, minded, and sorted out.

 

[Coriolis]

There is a bit of murky indecision where the line between choice and objective standard lies. Some people think people should just make up their own roles for genders, some people think people should just make up their own genders for roles, with this that and the other in between. I think the merit of them is in the generationally polished traditionalism of the nuts and bolts. Human beings have 100 years or less to figure things out, and the knowledge of prior generations, even if written down, very seldom carries through to the next. Each has to relearn the same things, because we are empirical by nature. Some things manage to slip between the cracks of these walls, though- like religion, and tradition- and I think they should be respected, minded, and sorted out.

Why do either? Why worry about gender at all? Do what it makes sense for you to do, based on your abilities, interests, preferences, needs, and circumstances. Whether the result looks traditionally feminine, masculine, or somewhere in between - all good.

 

[Cellmold]

Some people would say gender isn't fluid - it just simply does not exist outside of social manipulation in which males are all human subjects, and women are objects, along with animals, the earth, etc. ..which it is why it is seen as feminine or feminine power to see self as subject and also other living things as subject rather than objects to be used. (In case you are wondering where I got this all from, I'm not a rad fem, but I'm interested in the Deep Green Resistance as an environmentalist, and it lists the patriarchal male human subject everything else object as the underlying reason for insane environmental destruction).

This is interesting.

Although now I'm going to sound like every gender argument ever.

I can see how the masculine subject of self but object of others might play out, with such notions as 'the ascent of Man!'

But how does the notion of feminine subject of self and subject of other living creatures, meaning empathy of course, vs the men's subject of self and object of everything else, deal with the fact the majority of wars make use of men's lives as a commodity and kill them off fairly unsubjectly? Men's views harming men? Patriarchy harming men? Which is an odd contradiction.

Or how about women who use men for money? Are they tapping into masculine energy over their feminine energy?

On top of this: If part of the aim is to diffuse gender traits being stereotypically assigned and assumed, how can feminine or masculine energy be applied? Since they are assuming certain traits based upon gender? Or have I misunderstood? Because to me, that contradicts with the notion of gender being a social construct.

If it is a construct then the ideas of masculine and feminine have no weight and thus don't hold responsibility or blame to any set of traits.

These questions aside, I don't think a concern for living creatures or the environment has to coincide precisely with ideas of feminine energy, not that it would matter if they did, but I think the focus is too much on semantics and struggling to define how to undefine the already undefined.

My point being that, upon examination heuristically, I find that the more intricate differences are between the biological variations of individuals. But at the same time this isn't a useful abstraction for understanding reality, so there are also overarching traits as well, which can be roughly applied as part of an average (though I think many overestimate the extent of those averages).

The balance inbetween these extremes is (in my opinion... what else?) what would be better to focus on as a whole, instead of throwing around spurious blame to one (barely defined) gender trait or another.

 

[anticlimatic]

Why do either? Why worry about gender at all? Do what it makes sense for you to do, based on your abilities, interests, preferences, needs, and circumstances. Whether the result looks traditionally feminine, masculine, or somewhere in between - all good.

Amen.

 

[Thalassa]

This is interesting.

Although now I'm going to sound like every gender argument ever.

I can see how the masculine subject of self but object of others might play out, with such notions as 'the ascent of Man!'

But how does the notion of feminine subject of self and subject of other living creatures, meaning empathy of course, vs the men's subject of self and object of everything else, deal with the fact the majority of wars make use of men's lives as a commodity and kill them off fairly unsubjectly? Men's views harming men? Patriarchy harming men? Which is an odd contradiction.

Or how about women who use men for money? Are they tapping into masculine energy over their feminine energy?

On top of this: If part of the aim is to diffuse gender traits being stereotypically assigned and assumed, how can feminine or masculine energy be applied? Since they are assuming certain traits based upon gender? Or have I misunderstood? Because to me, that contradicts with the notion of gender being a social construct.

If it is a construct then the ideas of masculine and feminine have no weight and thus don't hold responsibility or blame to any set of traits.

These questions aside, I don't think a concern for living creatures or the environment has to coincide precisely with ideas of feminine energy, not that it would matter if they did, but I think the focus is too much on semantics and struggling to define how to undefine the already undefined.

My point being that, upon examination heuristically, I find that the more intricate differences are between the biological variations of individuals. But at the same time this isn't a useful abstraction for understanding reality, so there are also overarching traits as well, which can be roughly applied as part of an average (though I think many overestimate the extent of those averages).

The balance inbetween these extremes is (in my opinion... what else?) what would be better to focus on as a whole, instead of throwing around spurious blame to one (barely defined) gender trait or another.

Men harm other men in war. The idea of dulling empathy or emotion in males, and training them the "self object" view is intentional, or was originally, to produce better minions to go to wars. Rich men don't fight wars. I think patriarchy is less about being male and more about psychopath worship (based in a primitive honor and envy of resource hoarders)...in more "feminine" or balanced cultures, men are not systemically trained this mindset, so like women are capable of seeing other living things as subjects instead of objects. Therefore the regard for animal spirit in Native American tribes and Kosher practices among ethnic Jews.

It is entirely made up - the gender role construct of "women feel" and "men think." While there are quite certainly biological differences inherent to both sexes, it's not the Western patriarchal construct. Radical feminists were originally called women's liberators. They did not seek equality, because they thought, fairly rightly in my estimation, that it was bad form to merely ape the rigid patriarchal construct of manhood - and instead argued for their freedom to create their own definition of themselves as individuals. I referenced this in another thread, about how Western feminism in its quest for equality, appeared to produce a lot of women trying to fit the more masculine gender role.

I think the traits that are systemically foisted on Western males from preschool is largely responsible for the unusually high number of male Narcissistic Personality Disorder - that is not to say women can never be cruel heartless gold diggers, women just have NPD and ASPD in smaller numbers. Women are more likely to be Histrionic or Borderline - both more "empathetic" cluster B disorders.

Radical feminists want to destroy the patriarchy and create a different civilization, not work within it docilely, nor create women who inadvertently uphold it by acting like self-object patriarchal Real Man ideal - that's why what they believe can come across as transphobia, even when they actually aren't, and support the rights of men and women to be themselves - they have a problem with what they see as Trans women in particular reinforcing the gender binary of woman as fuck object, but then also Trans men reinforcing the Real Man gender role. ..of course though, this is too simplistic since some Trans people completely avoid the hard gender binary and actually are more individual and androgynous or genuinely have body dysphoria.