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Free Will vs. Determinism.

Free Will or Determinism?


  • Total voters
    41

Xann

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Time is the illusion making free will appear implausible. Realize that if time was removed from the equation only for a second of ponderance, the cause and effect chain that causes the universe to appear deterministic disappears and the truth is revealed: all is free will. There are already scientific proofs and theories existing regarding the potential malleability and illusion of time, especially amongst quantum physicists. I don't understand how someone who subscribes to the modern day views of spacetime curving due to gravity and the big bang theory can honestly be a hardcore determinist.

 

á´…eparted

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Nah, its easy and completely fair. There's nothing subjective about being a loser, you either are or you aren't. It's as simple as that.

You've skipped the point I was trying to make: free will can't be proven/disproven, and it's ultimately subjective.

Honestly, it sounds like you are just wanting to call everyonw in this thread that does not think free will exists losers. Am I wrong?
 

Qlip

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I'll state my belief in freewill... it doesn't matter in the least to me if it exists or not, either way I'll continue to live my life with the perception of agency because that's what we do.
 

TopCatLSD

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You've skipped the point I was trying to make: free will can't be proven/disproven, and it's ultimately subjective.

Honestly, it sounds like you are just wanting to call everyonw in this thread that does not think free will exists losers. Am I wrong?

And you've skipped the point I've made.

^Freewill is completely provable, and your demonstrating it right now, as am I and everyone else in this thread. Which is why I conclude those that say it doesn't exist are simply afraid.
 

á´…eparted

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And you've skipped the point I've made.

^Freewill is completely provable, and your demonstrating it right now, as am I and everyone else in this thread. Which is why I conclude those that say it doesn't exist are simply afraid.

Lots of people in this thread don't agree and have given decent arguments to their stance (for the record, I don't know if free will exists because it depends on ones prospective, and I honestly don't care, I just operate/assume it does).

Calling everyone losers and afraid for having valid arguments why it doesn't is quite frankly, incredibly insulting.
 

TopCatLSD

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Lots of people in this thread don't agree and have given decent arguments to their stance (for the record, I don't know if free will exists because it depends on ones prospective, and I honestly don't care, I just operate/assume it does).

Calling everyone losers and afraid for having valid arguments why it doesn't is quite frankly, incredibly insulting.

I'm not calling people fearful losers because they have "valid arguments", I call them that because it's the truth.

If free will denying people get insulted by a punk bitch on the internet pointing out their insecurities, than they're only proving me correct.
 

Forever

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I think life is both comprised of both free will and determinism, as I know that some factors will ultimately decide what decision I make, and to simply ignore that is ridiculous in my view.

Determinism I think, is the harder pill to swallow out of the two. Seeing your life predestined and each failure reminds how not cool fate decided you to be and even the fact you're on the negative side determined by fate makes your life suck even more.

Free Will on the other hand, while easier can be hard but then to actually know that you made those choices make your life suck. Although, I find free will easier because its like "well I didn't know the whole result" so we can all pat ourselves on the back and trot along.

I vote partially deterministic because I do not "will" my preferences towards music, that'd be awesome though if I could do that. Make myself love country and live the life of a cowboy for like some period of time would be cool. But I don't, and I can't explain why. I can't explain why it makes me fall asleep. It just does.

Free Will because when your predetermined desires frustrate you, you can either choose to follow them or not.

So yeah, I just swallowed the purple pill guys. :chillpill:

While you guys think of that, this chillpill, according to definition is purple because of blue and red have been both put together? Purple is a mix of red and blue. ;)
 

Evee

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Those who believe themselves not free are not aware of their own possibilities to be and are enslaved by the inauthentic mode of existence, grounded in the actual, rather than the possible. (Put another way, they are not acting in accordance with self-conscious awareness.)

They are, in essence, not living their own lives, and are determined by the "They" or "Other".

The chief characteristic of authentic existence is an awareness of possibilities (freedom), and that is the only genuine way in which one can be aware of the self. To view the self as an (actual) entity that exists in fact is to see it as an object, and hence, as something else, and hence, as inauthentic, and hence, not free.

This tragic loss of independence is brought about by uncritical living.

"The unexamined life is not worth living." -Socrates

"Know thyself." -Socrates
 
Last edited:

andresimon

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Time is the illusion making free will appear implausible. Realize that if time was removed from the equation only for a second of ponderance, the cause and effect chain that causes the universe to appear deterministic disappears and the truth is revealed: all is free will. There are already scientific proofs and theories existing regarding the potential malleability and illusion of time, especially amongst quantum physicists. I don't understand how someone who subscribes to the modern day views of spacetime curving due to gravity and the big bang theory can honestly be a hardcore determinist.


What a post...
 

Poki

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We still have freewill to make a choice, all past does is present us with options.
 

Evee

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We still have freewill to make a choice, all past does is present us with options.

Wrong, the future presents us with possibilities (options).

In fact, our ability to have possible ways of Being, and thus free will, is what the future means.

That means that possibilities makes the future possible.

The future is not meaningful to us in any abstract ways of not-yet-nows, it is meaningful to us because it is one of the ways in which we exist. We have a future, that means that the future is a characteristic of Being.

Thus, the future is the most significant way of Being because it provides us with freedom, and a life without freedom would be meaningless.
 

Poki

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Wrong, the future presents us with possibilities (options).

In fact, our ability to have possible ways of Being, and thus free will, is what the future means.

That means that possibilities makes the future possible.

The future is not meaningful to us in any abstract ways of not-yet-nows, it is meaningful to us because it is one of the ways in which we exist. We have a future, that means that the future is a characteristic of Being.

Thus, the future is the most significant way of Being because it provides us with freedom, and a life without freedom would be meaningless.

Wrong...tomorrow will happen irregardless of free will. If a choice is made for us or we make a choice via free will, we still have the future. It's just a matter of is ithat predetermined or not. Future does not guarantee possibilities, it guarantees a single path. You cannot take 2 paths in the future, you can take 2 paths NOW. The path you choose decides your future. Possibilities Doesn't mean anything other then...well...maybe one day...if I ever actually pick something. Possibilities are nothing more then empty buckets, empty buckets waiting to be filled.

N's and possibilities :doh: lol

Using your last statement you can be trapped today by a tyrant, but because you never know what tomorrow holds you are living life according to your own freewill and you are free....so long as you don't leave your cell until your told. Then maybe one day I will be a real boy, free to do as I please. Free to cut these strings and stumble on my own.
 

Evee

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Wrong...tomorrow will happen irregardless of free will. If a choice is made for us or we make a choice via free will, we still have the future. It's just a matter of is ithat predetermined or not. Future does not guarantee possibilities, it guarantees a single path. You cannot take 2 paths in the future, you can take 2 paths NOW. The path you choose decides your future. Possibilities Doesn't mean anything other then...well...maybe one day...if I ever actually pick something. Possibilities are nothing more then empty buckets, empty buckets waiting to be filled.

N's and possibilities :doh: lol

Using your last statement you can be trapped today by a tyrant, but because you never know what tomorrow holds you are living life according to your own freewill and you are free....so long as you don't leave your cell until your told. Then maybe one day I will be a real boy, free to do as I please. Free to cut these strings and stumble on my own.

Anticipation is the act of looking forward in time (Being-toward one's possibilities). But how is anticipation possible? What does it mean to "be toward" anything at all?

The answer is: Because there is a future. (Not: There will be a future, as you have claimed.)

You have made the mistake of viewing the future as something that is simply an abstract "not-yet-now", awaiting our arrival as we progress down a "path of time" (As if time were a path on which the "objects of our future occurrences" already lay in wait for us). Rather, the future is meaningful to us because one goes toward the future.

To "have" a future means to expect, to anticipate (to look forward to). Thus, the future is meaningful to us as an awareness of our own possibilities of Being, and thus, if the future were merely a not-yet-now, it could have no meaning for us at all.
 

Mane

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It is the experience of choice.

You do have possibilities and are making a choice between them. Whether that choice is predetermined by or "free" doesn't change the fact that choice making is a real process and experience you go through. This sounds like a paradox because it suggests the other options were not "real possibilities" to began since determinism means it was impossible for you to choose them or anything other then what you've eventually chose, but that's a problem more to do with our semantics and language map then the problem itself, which largely fail to account that possibilities are in themselves existing factors - their potential has weight - an ideology might never come to power but the potential to arrive at system it describes is a real thing that has real impact and weights through those who can see it. Think about high school level Newtonian physics - that an object on a string swings to it's right doesn't negate the fact it might also have a force to make it swing to the left, it simply means there's a greater force to make it swing to the right, and your not going to be able to calculate the swing without both forces. The potential kinetic force is real. Likewise for possibilities, and thus choices. Essentially will doesn't need to be "free" of determinism in order to be will, nor is it any more free when enslaved to a coin toss.
 

Poki

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Anticipation is the act of looking forward in time (Being-toward one's possibilities). But how is anticipation possible? What does it mean to "be toward" anything at all?

The answer is: Because there is a future. (Not: There will be a future, as you have claimed.)

You have made the mistake of viewing the future as something that is simply an abstract "not-yet-now", awaiting our arrival as we progress down a "path of time" (As if time were a path on which the "objects of our future occurrences" already lay in wait for us). Rather, the future is meaningful to us because one goes toward the future.

To "have" a future means to expect, to anticipate (to look forward to). Thus, the future is meaningful to us as an awareness of our own possibilities of Being, and thus, if the future were merely a not-yet-now, it could have no meaning for us at all.

The future is only as meaningful as your actions lead it to be. You are wrong in that you hold it to be this almighty "meaning" as if it always is. Some peoples Future is shit because they so choose this path everyday of their life. They do not anticipate the future, don't confuse your outlook with what something means. Don't confuse subjective meaning with objective reality. This world is not a fairy tale waiting to unravel in front of us where everyone will be happy and anticipate the future. Just look at those who commit suicide. I am speaking from reality, not some dream land of what I want things to be. To some the future is awesome and anticipated, to others it's shit.

There are driver and passengers in life, I am a driver. The future is determined by the paths I take. I dont sit back and just let my world happen to me, I happen to my world. I take control when I want which directly chooses the paths my future will take. I also take responsibility for my actions which is why I believe they control my future. I live my life the way I want. So while I cannot predict everything that happens I can prepare for what I want and choose my paths. I don't anticipate my future, I live in the here and now preparing for my future. I will not live my life in anticipation of what could be, I prefer to figure out how to make it be.
 

Evee

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The future is only as meaningful as your actions lead it to be.

No, the future is meaningful because it presents us with possibilities. The present is significant to us only in terms of actions and situations that reflect our freedom to choose. It is not meaningful to view the present merely as a "background" for actual events, where we perform "everyday" actions which are part of a natural kind of activity.

Some peoples Future is shit because they so choose this path everyday of their life. They do not anticipate the future, don't confuse your outlook with what something means.

No, some people have shitty presents because they are not anticipating the future. They are not aware of their own possibilities and are simply "waiting" for their future to come towards them, rather than going towards the future of their own choosing.

Don't confuse subjective meaning with objective reality.

I'm not. Reality is a human construct and a result of high level theorizing. There is no reality without man because reality is a mode of man's interpretation of the world.

I don't anticipate my future, I live in the here and now preparing for my future.

That doesn't make sense.

Anticipating = preparing.

I will not live my life in anticipation of what could be, I prefer to figure out how to make it be.

So you're going to "figure out" how to make something you already have (a future) be.

Um ok?

:shrug:
 

Poki

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No, the future is meaningful because it presents us with possibilities. The present is significant to us only in terms of actions and situations that reflect our freedom to choose. It is not meaningful to view the present merely as a "background" for actual events, where we perform "everyday" actions which are part of a natural kind of activity.



No, some people have shitty presents because they are not anticipating the future. They are not aware of their own possibilities and are simply "waiting" for their future to come towards them, rather than going towards the future of their own choosing.



I'm not. Reality is a human construct and a result of high level theorizing. There is no reality without man because reality is a mode of man's interpretation of the world.



That doesn't make sense.

Anticipating = preparing.



So you're going to "figure out" how to make something you already have (a future) be.

Um ok?

:shrug:


I don't go through life trying to find "meaning" in everything. I go through life seeing what is in front of me. Meaning in the way you refer to it is a personal opinion.

I don't look forward to the future, I don't anticipate it, I have no feelings towards it very much. I plan for it so when it comes I will have good feelings and a good quality of life. I live in today, not the future. The future is a mere logical thought process of cause and affect so as to not screw it up. Ask those who know me, I don't anticipate, I don't live in possibilities, I live in the what is. When what is possible becomes what is AND I like it I will get excited, but that's not anticipation because it is the present. It is funny when someone tries to get me excited about what might be as if that's some kind of sales technique that works on me. Anticipation is a personal opinion on what may be. Anticipation is not equal to preparation. Anticipation is a half a wave length prior to preparation, it is not the only path that leads to preparation.

- - - Updated - - -

I was born to choose, but I didn't choose to be born.

Depends on where you were born
 
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