Fluffy Ts and Cold Fs

[INTJMom]

I'm a cold prickly of a feeler. It's not that I'm mean, I'm just cold and socially awkward. Oh well.

Isn't that because you're a T?

 

[substitute]

I enjoy thinkers that can have that feeler type of impression. It makes them seem more approachable and when you get to know them they actually have a lot to say. Personally, they have a talent, I admire that.

I'd advise though when you're enjoying it, not to get too caught up in it and mistake it for genuine attachment... cos though I'm not saying T's aren't capable of genuine attachment, it's just often not the case that they're feeling it, and as cafe pointed out earlier, there are ExTP traits that can easily be mistaken for that.

It's happened to me in the past that what I knew (and assumed was understood) as intellectual excitement and enthusiasm for a project or idea was interpreted by someone as caring about them or a big attachment to them. And then later when I've just behaved true to my intentions and not pursued the other person after the project's over, I've been accused of deceit and betrayal, which I think is a bit harsh. Cos what else could I do - stop myself whenever I get enthusiastic and say to the person "Oh, before I go on, please understand that I'm not interested in you as a person, I just find this project really exciting and I like working with you because you're competent"? Somehow I don't think that would go down as socially acceptable...

Though the ExTP could possibly find a way to reduce that misunderstanding, I do think the other person is just as often equally to blame for seeing what they want to see.

Just a warning there... I don't mean to put you off or anything, but just please check that people do feel what you think they do before you plan on reciprocating it...

 

[INTJMom]

...
Cos what else could I do - stop myself whenever I get enthusiastic and say to the person "Oh, before I go on, please understand that I'm not interested in you as a person, I just find this project really exciting and I like working with you because you're competent"? Somehow I don't think that would go down as socially acceptable...
...

Maybe? LOL!

Ahhh...honesty... it's so refreshing.

Funny how people think everything is about them. How dare they mistake our enthusiasm for a project as affection for them! Are they out of their minds?!

 

[white]

I'd advise though when you're enjoying it, not to get too caught up in it and mistake it for genuine attachment... cos though I'm not saying T's aren't capable of genuine attachment, it's just often not the case that they're feeling it, and as cafe pointed out earlier, there are ExTP traits that can easily be mistaken for that.

It's happened to me in the past that what I knew (and assumed was understood) as intellectual excitement and enthusiasm for a project or idea was interpreted by someone as caring about them or a big attachment to them. And then later when I've just behaved true to my intentions and not pursued the other person after the project's over, I've been accused of deceit and betrayal, which I think is a bit harsh. Cos what else could I do - stop myself whenever I get enthusiastic and say to the person "Oh, before I go on, please understand that I'm not interested in you as a person, I just find this project really exciting and I like working with you because you're competent"? Somehow I don't think that would go down as socially acceptable...

Though the ExTP could possibly find a way to reduce that misunderstanding, I do think the other person is just as often equally to blame for seeing what they want to see.

Just a warning there... I don't mean to put you off or anything, but just please check that people do feel what you think they do before you plan on reciprocating it...

To be fair, I'd wager the ExTPs do know where the sentiments lie (or at least have a very good guess), and are not always above leaving the waters a bit muddy for the time being to enjoy the attachments too - afterall, work is easier if someone likes you personally, isn't it.

 

[substitute]

Funny how people think everything is about them. How dare they mistake our enthusiasm for a project as affection for them! Are they out of their minds?!

I was kinda taking it as read that I do sympathize with the other person's POV and predicament... but my perception is that it's usually the non-attached person who gets the harshest criticism and has the fewest advocates/allies. People feel usually much more sympathy for someone who has had feelings hurt by someone not caring as much as they were expected to, than for someone who is being blackened because of their inability to attach, as though it were a conscious decision.

I also wasn't saying I was angry at them for making that mistake... just frustrated on their behalf exactly because, after the event, I do understand how they got there and feel genuinely bad about it. I just wanted to try and give a warning that this can happen, because knowing something's a possibility and being on guard against it can help prevent ugly situations from evolving.

To be fair, I'd wager the ExTPs do know where the sentiments lie (or at least have a very good guess), and are not always above leaving the waters a bit muddy for the time being to enjoy the attachments too - afterall, work is easier if someone likes you personally, isn't it.

I'm not talking about not wanting someone to like you, but there's like in the detached "that person is cool to be with but I can live without them" sense, and then there's like in the "I really care about this person, they mean a lot to me and I hope I mean a lot to them too" sense, which is quite different and no, I don't think everyone wants their colleagues to feel the latter for them or is aware of it when/if they do.

Speaking for myself, I know that the very last thing I ever suspect or believe is that someone is attached to me. Truly, honestly, the very last thing. I've found it extremely difficult to accept someone's attachment or genuine love even when I've been in a long term relationship with them - even when I'm related to them and grew up with them - so no, knowing something is there and leading someone on is not something I'm remotely capable of. If I even do notice anything, it scares the hell out of me so I'm much more likely to back off completely than lead them on.

I can't speak for other ExTP's in that regard, obviously, but I do know that NT's are prone to detachment and often find attaching to people difficult. I also know that they very often find it difficult to believe others really care about them. Not only is it difficult for many to attach, but it's also something they've grown kinda conditioned to not being able to do, so it's not something they go into a working relationship looking for. In short, it just doesn't cross the mind, and so would not be assumed automatically to be crossing the mind of the other person.

I was talking about something that can be deeply upsetting to both people, when something that's a result of a deep psychological trauma that a person is painfully hindered by, is put down to them being deceitful, leading people on, or deliberately misleading. I accept that there is fault on the part of the unattached person, I was just trying to point out that that's not the only place where 'fault' lies. Many people DO have a habit of seeing what they want to see, when the evidence really doesn't support it.

But I might've guessed I'd get taken wrongly.... it's been one of those weeks where just about any good intention I have gets twisted into me being the bad guy as usual...

 

[white]

I was kinda taking it as read that I do sympathize with the other person's POV and predicament... but my perception is that it's usually the non-attached person who gets the harshest criticism and has the fewest advocates/allies. People feel usually much more sympathy for someone who has had feelings hurt by someone not caring as much as they were expected to, than for someone who is being blackened because of their inability to attach, as though it were a conscious decision.

I also wasn't saying I was angry at them for making that mistake... just frustrated on their behalf exactly because, after the event, I do understand how they got there and feel genuinely bad about it. I just wanted to try and give a warning that this can happen, because knowing something's a possibility and being on guard against it can help prevent ugly situations from evolving.



I'm not talking about not wanting someone to like you, but there's like in the detached "that person is cool to be with but I can live without them" sense, and then there's like in the "I really care about this person, they mean a lot to me and I hope I mean a lot to them too" sense, which is quite different and no, I don't think everyone wants their colleagues to feel the latter for them or is aware of it when/if they do.

Speaking for myself, I know that the very last thing I ever suspect or believe is that someone is attached to me. Truly, honestly, the very last thing. I've found it extremely difficult to accept someone's attachment or genuine love even when I've been in a long term relationship with them - even when I'm related to them and grew up with them - so no, knowing something is there and leading someone on is not something I'm remotely capable of. If I even do notice anything, it scares the hell out of me so I'm much more likely to back off completely than lead them on.

I can't speak for other ExTP's in that regard, obviously, but I do know that NT's are prone to detachment and often find attaching to people difficult. I also know that they very often find it difficult to believe others really care about them. Not only is it difficult for many to attach, but it's also something they've grown kinda conditioned to not being able to do, so it's not something they go into a working relationship looking for. In short, it just doesn't cross the mind, and so would not be assumed automatically to be crossing the mind of the other person.

I was talking about something that can be deeply upsetting to both people, when something that's a result of a deep psychological trauma that a person is painfully hindered by, is put down to them being deceitful, leading people on, or deliberately misleading. I accept that there is fault on the part of the unattached person, I was just trying to point out that that's not the only place where 'fault' lies. Many people DO have a habit of seeing what they want to see, when the evidence really doesn't support it.

But I might've guessed I'd get taken wrongly.... it's been one of those weeks where just about any good intention I have gets twisted into me being the bad guy as usual...

Projection. Yes. We tend to see and hear what we want to many-a-times. Then when the illusion breaks, the tendency is to blame the other person for not playing the role, simply.

NTs may be prone to detachment, or may not suspect that someone could really care for them. Whatever the reason, it does not change the fact that they do not tend to clarify such feelings, until the dam bursts, so to speak. And this is the confusion point, isn't it?

I think they have a good guess what someone is feeling. Ne or Se is perceptive in that way?, But whether or not they choose to believe it, and act to nip it in the bud, is another matter. Thing is to the other person, they were being patently obvious, and would perceive some actions to mean more than the ExTP would have.

 

[substitute]

I personally find that I often perceive a person behaves in a positive and friendly way towards me. However, I put it down to the fact that I'm behaving positively and friendly towards them, so they're merely being polite/considerate/civilized, because that's why I'm behaving that way towards them: because I'm not a barbarian and there's no need to be otherwise. I've learned the hard way never to assume that just because someone doesn't treat you like an animal, and treats you with respect as a human being, that this means they have any particular fondness or attachment towards you. It's just manners.

Anyway I took a break from here cos I figured I'm not in a good state to be posting... shoulda stayed away as you see!

 

[white]

I personally find that I often perceive a person behaves in a positive and friendly way towards me. However, I put it down to the fact that I'm behaving positively and friendly towards them, so they're merely being polite/considerate/civilized, because that's why I'm behaving that way towards them: because I'm not a barbarian and there's no need to be otherwise. I've learned the hard way never to assume that just because someone doesn't treat you like an animal, and treats you with respect as a human being, that this means they have any particular fondness or attachment towards you. It's just manners.

Anyway I took a break from here cos I figured I'm not in a good state to be posting... shoulda stayed away as you see!

Hey, it is a detached discussion. Hope you're feeling better soon.

It is interesting, coming from a male and a female perspective, for us ENTPs. I've on the other hand, learnt to clarify straight off, any hint of flirtation or innuendo IRL, and to specify that I am really joking, because the overall experience is guys do take it seriously (i.e. mean more). *food for thought for aelan*...

 

[substitute]

Hey, it is a detached discussion. Hope you're feeling better soon.

It is interesting, coming from a male and a female perspective, for us ENTPs. I've on the other hand, learnt to clarify straight off, any hint of flirtation or innuendo IRL, and to specify that I am really joking, because the overall experience is guys do take it seriously (i.e. mean more). *food for thought for aelan*...

ha, I'm not as detached from it atm as I should be, obviously!!

Perhaps this is where the difference lies aelan - your experiences as an attractive and smart woman are that people are interested in you, more than you in them, so you've had to make these clarifications. Perhaps it's not usual for women to be as open and friendly as you are, so you're more accustomed to being taken to be more interested than you are, or interested in a different way.

Whereas on the other hand, my experiences are from 'awkward girl' who nobody was really interested in, to 'physical freak', likewise, so never having become accustomed to attention in that sense I've found it safe (and logical) to assume that I'm not thought of in that way. And though possibly it's not unknown for men to be open and friendly with ulterior motives, I don't tend to make any distinction between which gender I'm being friendly towards and how they take it, the whole question of sexuality being ruled out from my life... I forget I guess, that it's pretty foremost in most people's minds.

But it honestly only just occurred to me there that you had romantic interest in mind... I was talking about platonic friendships the whole time...

 

[INTJMom]

I was kinda taking it as read that I do sympathize with the other person's POV and predicament... but my perception is that it's usually the non-attached person who gets the harshest criticism and has the fewest advocates/allies. People feel usually much more sympathy for someone who has had feelings hurt by someone not caring as much as they were expected to, than for someone who is being blackened because of their inability to attach, as though it were a conscious decision.

I also wasn't saying I was angry at them for making that mistake... just frustrated on their behalf exactly because, after the event, I do understand how they got there and feel genuinely bad about it. I just wanted to try and give a warning that this can happen, because knowing something's a possibility and being on guard against it can help prevent ugly situations from evolving.
...

I didn't mean to make you feel as though you had to explain yourself.

I was sharing my own evil and cold-hearted point of view.

I understood you entirely correctly, and then I shared how I have felt in that circumstance.

I know you are a kind-hearted person and genuinely feel badly for other people's pain. (And so do I - but when I was young, I was quite detached.)

 

[cascadeco]

That's interesting and where I become confused about my type. I can be a loving, caring individual, but if I am frustrated, tired or hungry, get.out.of.my.way. I also become very sarcastic and assholish. "Fuck Off", "Dick Head" and Fucktard" are a few of my favorite words when I am in a mood. I also like to say "You're not fucking dying, so get over it!" Can I still be an INFJ?

Mind you I never say these things to or in front of our children, but I do mutter them when I am pissed off with adults. Driving is the worst for me and my mood.

Actually I don't think I'm the most approachable person, but I think most of it is my introversion. Even while at work...I might have a few days where I'm totally in my head and I make very little contact with people around me, and I don't really initiate anything. I'm just...completely in my head. Sometimes it's my mood, and I'm in a negative mood so I don't want to be around people. But other times I'm in a fine mood, I'm just wrapped up in my thoughts. I really think my ISFJ coworker/friend is perplexed by this and she sometimes approaches me with trepidation and caution. Late last week I was completely in my dreamworld/thoughtworld, and she approached me on day 2 of it and asked cautiously...'Are you ok? I thought something might be wrong??'...and I was surprised - I was like, 'Oh, I'm totally fine!! Sometimes I totally just become oblivious to everything and everyone around me!! It's not you!! ' Then I'll realize maybe I should go talk to her or others more often so they don't think I'm upset/mad with them!!

Ok..that anecdote aside..I still don't think I come across to most people as being fluffy. I'm not overly warm, I'm not charismatic and effervescent, I'm not 'fluffy' in the bubbly/goofy/huggy sense. I keep most of my emotions under the surface, but I don't think I can hide them, really. They just don't have free reign in how I respond to people. I imagine some people might think I was a T if they met me in person and I wasn't talking about myself and my own processes/thoughts/feelings at all (and also, I think a lot of people associate 'F' with more of your extroverted feelers, and how the Fe/Fi displays with an extrovert. Introverted feelers are going to appear differently).

Oh, and driving -- hahaha -- I'll often mutter 'Dumbass' under my breath when I'm driving around town and I get annoyed with various drivers.

 

[CzeCze]

I had a half finished thought but what I wanted to add is that you can be very emotional and not very bubbly. I joked earlier that if we were talking about how E/I affects the equation we could make more generalizations.

Also, I think there is a lot to be said for how 'detachment' or really not being aware of and/or not caring about social dynamics and mores can really free you to be yourself. "For better or worse".

An F, or maybe an EF, is more likely to be highly aware and personally invested in their social standing and interpersonal dynamics. And care a lot about it. ENFP hypervigilance comes to mind. This can spur people on to be very charming because they are so invested and aware OR become very shy and withdrawn for the same reason.

However, being divested of the social repercussions of a situation, either because you won't feel them or you can't foresee them, means you act just like you. This can come off as confidence/assertiveness and have 'positive' results OR rub people the wrong way, come off as awkward, and even embarass or turn off those around you.

Someone else mentioned how their ENTP friend is more outgoing than their ENFP friend because the T doesn't care about social awkwardness whereas the F gets caught up in it. SO TRUE.

However, this doesn't just speak to T versus F. I think most people can recall times when they were relaxed to 'be themselves' or be more free socially versus times they became nervous or more invested in a situation (first date, job interview) where you become more reserved/more aware of your actions and impressions.

 

[Blackwater]

Yearh the Fluffy Ts and Cold Fs thing is kind of an ongoing clichee within MBTI. Even von Franz wrote a book about that somewhere in the 20'ies or 30'ies adressing exactly that.

Anyway, its sort of the state of affairs in my social circle as well. The discourse continuously locks feelers in roles where they are expected to provide gaity and warmth, or emotional support after someone is on the recieving end of a critique. Sometimes, they are even assigned magical powers, - much like smurfs

I once wanted to start a discussion with my friends where the premise basically was: "Please explain how feeling can be counted on to be rational and objective, because when you read about the feeling function it seems that it really isn't." That didn't go so well: Only a few thinkers responded and when I pointed this out, one thinker told me: "Yearh but you initiated the discussion on T terms". - I don't know exactly what that was supposed to mean but I refuse to believe that rational discussion is the sole domain of the Ts.

(By the way I know all about Jung's definition of Feeling as being a rational function, but in that case Jung defined rationality as the quality of being internally consistant. Which is not what I am getting at above. Sharia Law is pretty internally consistant, after all, yet very irrational when it comes down to it.)

In my experience, attempting to discuss feeling and feelers objectively is a discoursive nightmare: You immediatly get hit with the same accusations that prevent gender difference, race difference, intelligence etc. from being discussed rationally. Furthermore, you also get kind of incriminated ad hominem; casted as a fun-spoiler, unable to grasp the charms and enjoyment of feeling. (Cue Monty Python's "Logic versus Sex").

Incidentally, I am not saying, that there is necessarily anything to racism, sexism etc. - just like I refuse to believe that rational discussion is the sole domain of the Ts. But I find it striking that some people employ the same rhetoric in the "defense" of feeling as they would employ in their defense of any other group that has traditionally been percieved as weak (that would be women, Africans etc.). So what I would like was some good, rational arguments on the merits of Feeling that avoid the championing of feelers as human cuddle toys.

It may sound provocative, but believe me, I have asked and read around and am yet to find such arguments.

 

[Othon]

Isn't that because you're a T?

No, I need to change that.

 

[cafe]

That's interesting and where I become confused about my type. I can be a loving, caring individual, but if I am frustrated, tired or hungry, get.out.of.my.way. I also become very sarcastic and assholish. "Fuck Off", "Dick Head" and Fucktard" are a few of my favorite words when I am in a mood. I also like to say "You're not fucking dying, so get over it!" Can I still be an INFJ?

Mind you I never say these things to or in front of our children, but I do mutter them when I am pissed off with adults. Driving is the worst for me and my mood.

I have to watch myself at times because I can be very sarcastic and unkind when I'm miffed and say things I wish I hadn't said.

For instance, I once asked the poor gal filling in at my kids' front office at school "Have you had problems with parents bringing cupcakes to school then shooting and molesting the children?"

I was screaming at myself the whole time I was saying it to STFU. I knew it wasn't her fault they wouldn't let me take the cupcakes to my daughter's class, but I was just so frustrated with the situation.

Fortunately I was able to restrain myself from pointing out that if I wanted to hurt children, I could just bring poison cupcakes, since they were fine with the cupcakes going to the classroom, just not the parents. Saying something like that could have probably gotten me in jail.

 

[Tigerlily]

I have to watch myself at times because I can be very sarcastic and unkind when I'm miffed and say things I wish I hadn't said.

For instance, I once asked the poor gal filling in at my kids' front office at school "Have you had problems with parents bringing cupcakes to school then shooting and molesting the children?"

I was screaming at myself the whole time I was saying it to STFU. I knew it wasn't her fault they wouldn't let me take the cupcakes to my daughter's class, but I was just so frustrated with the situation.

Fortunately I was able to restrain myself from pointing out that if I wanted to hurt children, I could just bring poison cupcakes, since they were fine with the cupcakes going to the classroom, just not the parents. Saying something like that could have probably gotten me in jail.

OK why wouldn't they let you take cupcakes to the classroom? Are parents not allowed to enter during school hours? That would totally piss me off!

I am at times guilty of using logic and reason with the school staff. It's very easy because I've noticed that most of the teachers and staff aren't too bright. When I confront them and respond to them in a certain way, they usually just kind of stare at me and appear confused. Thankfully our children are learning "people" skills at home and they are quite good at detecting sarcasm thanks to L and I.

It is too bad that we don't live closer to one another, as I know we'd get along very well.

 

[cafe]

OK why wouldn't they let you take cupcakes to the classroom? Are parents not allowed to enter during school hours? That would totally piss me off!

There had been some kind of scare or something. I can't remember which one it was. It wasn't local or related to cupcakes, but they were freaking out and not letting parents in the classrooms.

I am at times guilty of using logic and reason with the school staff. It's very easy because I've noticed that most of the teachers and staff aren't too bright. When I confront them and respond to them in a certain way, they usually just kind of stare at me and appear confused. Thankfully our children are learning "people" skills at home and they are quite good at detecting sarcasm thanks to L and I.

When they say they want critical thinking I think "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." Some of them appear to be impervious to logic.

It is too bad that we don't live closer to one another, as I know we'd get along very well.

We would, but who would bail us out of jail?

 

[Tigerlily]

We would, but who would bail us out of jail?

Ivy to the rescue!

 

[MacGuffin]

Re: not allowing cupcakes

In many school districts they have banned cupcakes, due to severe food allergies. The ban is usually no homemade food.

Re: not allowing parents

The school district may not be up on custody situations and the like.

 

[heart]

That's interesting and where I become confused about my type. I can be a loving, caring individual, but if I am frustrated, tired or hungry, get.out.of.my.way. I also become very sarcastic and assholish. "Fuck Off", "Dick Head" and Fucktard" are a few of my favorite words when I am in a mood. I also like to say "You're not fucking dying, so get over it!" Can I still be an INFJ?

Mind you I never say these things to or in front of our children, but I do mutter them when I am pissed off with adults. Driving is the worst for me and my mood.

My husband is INFJ and he freely uses the F word all day long, for a variety of meanings, depending on tone and inflection. It is a real art he has perfected.