[Fi] Fi -- Why does it drive you nuts?

[disregard]

What BlueWing describes seems more indicative of personality disorder, and he is thus attributing the effects of something else--perhaps BPD--to Fi egocentricity, which is merely a manifestation of such a disorder in such an individual as a Fi dominant.

 

[TenebrousReflection]

Fis tend to lack the drive for competence (lack of T) and have difficulty learning tasks that require tough-mindedness and aptitude for dispassionate problem solving.

Fi's don't lack a drive for confidence, if they value what they're doing they'll try to get good at it.

I think there is some truth to what BW says, but I think its sorta looking at things the wrong way. When an Fi dom (or secondary) does not know and understand the importance of Fi to them, it can cause them to go into career paths they are not inherently suited for, but the same could be said for many people falling into career paths that are counter to their true values.

If an Fi cares about something and it has meaning to them, then I think it is easy for us to invest the time, energy and devotion to be the best we can be at it, but in a work environment where we don't feel energized, valued and don't feel like our talents are contributing, it can be hard to have the motivation to be more than adequate at the core tasks, but even in those cases we usually don't want to let our co-worker down so we can make up in effort/dedication what we lack in enthusiasm (this assumes of course a relationship of mutual respect with ones co-workers to begin with (and if co-workers mock or otherwise demean us, then that too can be eroded and lead to an unproductive Fi worker)

Many people at work will have a problem with the fact that they cannot speak their mind freely around Fis, as they are forced to walk on eggshells (without even clearly knowing what the hell will offend the Fi, and how to predict their possible reactions and enginneer ways to get around that), especially dominant Thinkers likely will experience this frustration because they tend to highly value candor. They will need to speak their mind freely, no matter who may be offended (from their perspective) in order to solve the problems they deem important to solve.

I think this varies with the individual but I see the overall point of being uncertain what will set off Fi hostility/resentment (the values of the Fi are not so much subject to volatility and flip flopping, but the values can vary a lot from individual to individual with Fi which makes it seem less predictable than it really is - if you learn and understand the Fis values, then you can have a good idea how they will react to various things) . I for one consider myself hard to offend by open speaking Ts, but fairly easy to offend by people who exude authoritarian or judgmental Fe. I find T criticism easier to handle since it is objective and judging the practicality and logic of my decisions, not the morality or ethics of my decisions.

 

[Gabe]

Well, I have watched my ENFP best friend and her INTJ boyfriend do pretty much everything that BlueWing described throughout this thread. He walks on eggshells around her. She cries often over the most trivial things, and he has no way of predicting when her feelings will be hurt or when they wont be. For example, one time she cried because he wouldn't sit next to her on the bed because he was doing stuff on the computer three feet away! I have no idea why she would possibly cry over something like that. Did she tell herself right before she asked him "If he really loves me, he'll get up and sit next to me!"? Why couldn't she pull up a chair and sit next to him if she wanted it so bad?

Another thing about people with Fi I have noticed is that they tend to have an initial distaste for personality typology. I think my ENFP best friend absolutely HATES the idea that some people out there are very similar to her, and so she believes that since it evokes negative emotions in her it can't possibly have any validity to it. She even told me once that she thinks self-help books are stupid; ironically she would benefit from reading a few of them about maintaining relationships and neuroticism, but that's just her.

There's my two cents.

Typology truly has no validity in the way many people present it. So I'm not going to blame ANYONE for not liking typology, or remark on how strange it is of them not to like to be *put in a box* (which is how many people COUGH! use typology), or to be described in a way that doesn't fit them, or to be described in terms of a jargon they don't understand.

I definately would've ditched personology if I hadn't run into the right sites.

And who knows if you're actually describing the dynaming between the supposed INTJ and supposed ENFP accurately. Thank you for your side of the story!

Yeah, I'm really getting sick of this shit.

 

[murkrow]

I'm pretty sure everyone is unhappy with the idea of being described by 4 letters.

Yes then they readily describe themselves by listing their interests: "Umm, I like snowboarding and shopping... I LOOOVE music, and dancing!"

Silly geese.

 

[Gabe]

""(the values of the Fi are not so much subject to volatility and flip flopping, but the values can vary a lot from individual to individual with Fi which makes it seem less predictable than it really is - if you learn and understand the Fis values, then you can have a good idea how they will react to various things)""

good point!

I should've mentioned too (as reflection did), Fi's don't even neccesarily have a problem with "thinkers"! There is nothing inherently more violating about the nature of thinking (although all Fi's will have great irritation with some aspect of introverted thinking).

typical dichotimous crap.

In truth, take any I_TPs and I_FPs, the I_FPs will probably overall be just as much or more comfortable with the whole range of Te activities: debating using if-then-therefor logic, organizing space and resources, contingency planning etc.

 

[wedekit]

Typology truly has no validity in the way many people present it. So I'm not going to blame ANYONE for not liking typology, or remark on how strange it is of them not to like to be *put in a box* (which is how many people COUGH! use typology), or to be described in a way that doesn't fit them, or to be described in terms of a jargon they don't understand.

I definately would've ditched personology if I hadn't run into the right sites.

And who knows if you're actually describing the dynaming between the supposed INTJ and supposed ENFP accurately. Thank you for your side of the story!

Yeah, I'm really getting sick of this shit.

I can't tell if this is sarcasm or not, but I do agree the typology can only go so far. I think what people forget is that psychology (like any science) is about prediction and not solid, incontestable fact. Hell, even the periodic table of elements could be up for debate in a few years.

I like typology because I like to use it as a reference point, not as something to define someone else. Plus, it helps me understand those people that really piss me off. The MBTI helps me understand me understand them a little more, and lets me known where they are coming from and why. The reason I even was drawn into the MBTI was because I thought it would be useful for characterization in my writing.

This thread is probably the prelude to "Fe -- Why does it drive you nuts?", and I'm not sure if I'm ready for the kind of responses people will give after looking at this thread. I think it's easy to see the negative of any "function", and I personally think that having Fi has a lot of shining qualities that I think are praise-worthy. My best friend always sticks to what she feels is right. Sure, it may be annoying when we don't agree and there is no compromising to be had. However, because I know that she has such a strong belief in her feelings, I know that I can trust her in the end. I don't need to know her type to realize that, though.

 

[cafe]

Another thing about people with Fi I have noticed is that they tend to have an initial distaste for personality typology. I think my ENFP best friend absolutely HATES the idea that some people out there are very similar to her, and so she believes that since it evokes negative emotions in her it can't possibly have any validity to it. She even told me once that she thinks self-help books are stupid; ironically she would benefit from reading a few of them about maintaining relationships and neuroticism, but that's just her.

There's my two cents.

That sounds really different from my ENFP friend. She devours self-help books and is one of the few people outside the forums I can talk MBTI with.

 

[Uytuun]

Ironically, the most Fi people I know are my ESFP friend and my INTJ dad. I (increasingly) have Fi moments of my own and can predict it in others or understand where they come from, but they are sometimes not an appropriate reflection of what the other person was trying to do and that can be frustrating. I like to think a well-balanced Fi person will accept an explanation of the motives of your action and will be able to express himself/herself as to his/her values and be open to discussion. Once people are more aware of how they function (not necessarily in MBTI context), they probably get a lot more context to help them use their Fi constructively. But this is true of every type. A teenage INTJ who gets a rush of Te isn't a pretty sight to behold either.

I can't say I have a lot of problems with the ESFP's Fi.

 

[heart]

IThis thread is probably the prelude to "Fe -- Why does it drive you nuts?", and I'm not sure if I'm ready for the kind of responses people will give after looking at this thread.

Its already been done all over the board about Fe. Nothing to fear, its all already been said.

Nothing too awful was said in this thread here about Fi though really. At least nothing an Fi couldn't anticipate would be said. It just gives a good chance to sound off back to Fe critics when in real life often one cannot.

Originally Posted by wedekit
Another thing about people with Fi I have noticed is that they tend to have an initial distaste for personality typology.

I was interested in it from the first I heard about it, my husband (INFJ) had vague interest at first but now cannot understand what I get out of studying it at all. I don't know anyone else in my offline life who will take interest in it either.

 

[wedekit]

I was interested in it from the first I heard about it, my husband (INFJ) had vague interest at first but now cannot understand what I get out of studying it at all. I don't know anyone else in my offline life who will take interest in it either.

Well, I gather now from your post and others that it must just be a coincidence that all the people I mentioned before have Fi. Sorry 'bout that.

edit: Though I don't feel like looking for it, I have read in some description somewhere that ENFPs are the type most afraid/resistant to being "boxed".

 

[TenebrousReflection]

Well, I gather now from your post and others that it must just be a coincidence that all the people I mentioned before have Fi. Sorry 'bout that.

edit: Though I don't feel like looking for it, I have read in some description somewhere that ENFPs are the type most afraid/resistant to being "boxed".

When you refer to being boxed in by type description, I think the "don't tell me how I feel" attitude has to do more with the trait lists than the actual theoretical aspect of how MBTI works, but to get to the theoretical meat of MBTI, one has to first get past the basics and those basics will throw out lots of trait lists and I can see where lots of Fi types would look at a list of those and feel there is nothing in the system that accurately represents them (because they strongly disagree with one or more of the bundled traits). I think another factor is if the person comes to MBTI out of curiosity or if its thrust on them (work or school tests).

 

[songofcalamity]

If someone had very high Fi and very low Ti(or perhaps Te), then they would have the problem of believing things based soley on their own ideals, with no logical support. They would thing things very much in terms of good and bad, and very little terms of true and false.

Of course, that's not the problem of Fi alone, that is the problem of Fi minus Ti. That's never a given, since there are plenty of people that use large amounts of both.

Like me.

I know of a friend who I think has high Fi and very low Ti. He drives me mad, when you debate/argue with him, he doesn't comprehend the logic you are trying to instill into him, he just thinks his logic is right, so whenever I argue with him, I always end up backing out, because I cannot stand his irrationality and his stubborness. Oh, btw, he is an ENFP. His Fi, driven by his Ne, bugs me alot.

 

[CzeCze]

Question, does Fi make you wordy as heck? LOL. No.

First, thank you for visiting the thread I'm started. I'm so happy I started a salient, meaty thread that doesn't involve naked pictures or Fail pictures (not that there's anything wrong with that per sae) it makes me shed a tear of pride :tear:

I've just been watching the discussions take off and it's interesting.

One thing I will say is that it's true -- Fi alone can't and doesn't really do anything IRL. It's how a function is supported/influenced/contradicted (or not) by other functions that makes it happen.

I think given the age skew of the forum and the presence of lots of college aged kids, I understand why there are so many examples of extreme ENFP that border on stereotypical ESFP. The irresponsbility, selfishness, tantrums, deception, etc.

I'll chalk it up to maturity and weak Te/Ti to temper it. And for the record, I strongly do NOT identify with these examples. I am beginning to think I must have *excellent* Te yim_rolling_on_the_) Even as a child and through my early teenage years I *never* threw tantrums or cried purely for show, I had more important things to do, like run around and get in trouble. Plus, I knew it was a waste of my time. My parents and other adults in my life attest to this (now, if you want sensitive cry baby, check out my INTP brother)

What I personally find fascinating is the confluence of LIFE EXPERIENCE and PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY and INDVIDUALITY. Basically, the *decisions* we've all made in our lives to make us who we are.

I think I grew up learning to act really tough and independent and protect myself. Ne/Fi causes a lot of...eventfulness. I took many conscious steps to own up to myself and develop a tough mind and I guess be...both left and right brained? These are decisions I made for myself and at first, it was like forcing square pegs through round slots.

Being an extremely sensitive person (Fi with crazy Ne) and feeling as though I was constantly in hostile waters, I knew I had to adjust for the world, not the other way around. And frankly, it is MUCH easier to present as a 'T' and moreover a 'J' as far practical day to day life goes. It is MUCH more effective to say, "This is how I feel because of X, Y, and Z" than to pout, cry, lash out, or be passive-aggressive. I made conscious steps to OWN my emotions and thoughts and be able to back them up in a public sphere. Because I also wanted to be VIABLE in the world and succeed.

I dunno how much Fi contributes to that, but I think maybe ENFP can feel like an underdog and definitely see the world dramatically. Looking at the world as a case of me vs. it, I decided it will NOT get me down. I'm in it to win it! So I took those steps to win at the game. I frankly am probably much harsher and unsympathetic to others than my XNFP brethren for personal shortcomings that they refuse to take care of.

It took me a long, arduous, blah blah blah time to get through that tunnel of Fi with weak secondary/tertiary functions to get to the point where I could openly admit to when I'm wrong, what my true motivations are, and just own me without feeling pain, shame, or anger. And also not be so sensitive and REACTIVE and drowning in a knee-jerk isolating Fi soup that made me CRAZY PSYCHO emotional sometimes. 'Cause dude, I could flip a bitch.

I honest to god want to have a 360 view of myself (and everything/everyone else) and see myself clearly, without ego or hang-ups clouding the view. So maybe Ne saved the day. I also dont' want to be crazy.

It seems to me a lot of the issues people have with Fi boils down to the person in question not taking responsiblity or being aware of their effects on other people and basically being selfish/self-absorbed and making unfair demands on others.

I think though that most types and people can be reduced to this flaw -- stubborness and unwillingness to accomodate. With Fi though it's just more... demonstrative.

The irony though is that generally Fi makes you care a lot about doing the 'right thing'. It's very true, all my life I have been VERY affected by injustice, unfairness, cruelty and really has been a motivating force in my life. I have always identified as an activist/conscientious person/anti-institutional outsider since I was a tween and I know my Fi has a lot to do with that.

So even though some of these xNFPs described are frankly annoying to be around (according to the posters) and are described as sensitive children, they'll hopefully pull through it and become very strong emotional supports later who can temper their Fi with responsibility and apply it to the greater world.

Fi in itself is an amazing thing. Kinda kooky to outsiders, sure, but when tempered and channeled, can motivate those to do a lot of good in the world.

PS Yeah I know I just went off about rah-rah me, but it's technically my thread and I like me dammit, so RAAAAWWWRRRRR :steam: LOL.

 

[heart]

I think another factor is if the person comes to MBTI out of curiosity or if its thrust on them (work or school tests).

Yes, absolutely the most important aspect I think. One has to already be looking for something like MBTI in order to take a real interest in it.

PS Yeah I know I just went off about rah-rah me, but it's technically my thread and I lik me dammit, so RAAAAWWWRRRRR :steam: LOL.

I enjoyed reading it.

 

[proteanmix]

As did I. That was definitely for the grown and sexy.

 

[SillySapienne]

I honest to god want to have a 360 view of myself (and everything/everyone else) and see myself clearly, without ego or hang-ups clouding the view. So maybe Ne saved the day. I also dont' want to be crazy.

It seems to me a lot of the issues people have with Fi boils down to the person in question not taking responsiblity or being aware of their effects on other people and basically being selfish/self-absorbed and making unfair demands on others.

The irony though is that generally Fi makes you care a lot about doing the 'right thing'. It's very true, all my life I have been VERY affected by injustice, unfairness, cruelty and really has been a motivating force in my life.

Fi in itself is an amazing thing. Kinda kooky to outsiders, sure, but when tempered and channeled, can motivate those to do a lot of good in the world.

Preach it!!!

 

[BlueScreen]

Fi is pretty subtle.

It's one of the "perceptual" decision making processes (along with Ti), which means it's good at making decisions in the middle of massive, nonlinear hits of unstructured information (Te and Fe need their info structured to deal with it).

But unlike Ti, it's more personalized; it encourages a personal relationship with the evolving information. But a prerequisite for any personal relationship is prior experience to determine what's acceptable or not.

An *extremely* simple-minded example of how Fi works is cooking. Say you're making sauce. You need to taste your sauce as you're cooking it and add whatever ingredients you need to make it taste "good". There's no way to structure that kind of information spontaneously, and Fi and Ti don't need to.

Even though you might say that you're taking in the information via S, you're making decisions on the fly in terms of what will make the sauce "good" or "bad". You need to personally know the difference between good and bad beforehand via prior experience. And you need to know it in your bones. Ti lacks this personal relationship in deciding what to do with sense-impressions, so, to Ti, the terms "good" and "bad" are meaningless in this context.

But Fi naturally discriminates between "good" and "bad" like that -- in terms of personal experience. It strikes other types as odd because, since it's perceptual, it's nonverbal, receptive, and guided by perceptions it can't quite explain. And on a much larger scale than cooking sauces, it derives its principles from prior experience of being human.

An added benefit of being perceptual (Fi/Ti) as that it doesn't need to take things apart so finely; Fi has the capacity to see things as a whole, apart from the assumptions we've been socialized into accepting. It can then reason wholistically to determine the integrity of our actions. Fe has a stronger emphasis on the prevailing social norms, and thus has a harder time providing this kind of wholistic decision-making.

But a negative is that it's very hard to express the nonlinear/nonverbal machinations of Fi's decision-making process. Combined with the emphasis on what's personally good or bad in terms of fundamental human values, this difficulty to clearly and linearly lay out one's line of reasoning to others can be interpreted as being dogmatic and polar, and their deeply-held human values aren't always self-evident to other people.

On the other hand, the emphasis on personalizing perceptions gives Fi a remarkably strong point of reference. Take a tragic play, for example. The emotional impact and meaning of the play are entirely dependent on whether or not we have a strong inner reference shaped by the experience of being human -- the kind that bypasses all the social constructs and strikes on what is essentially human. This gives people who use Fi an amazing amount of empathy.

I think others are bothered by Fi because it can appear so dogmatically certain about things that strike others as relative -- concepts like "good" and "bad" -- yet it has difficulty expressing its justification.

That's how I understand it anyway.

This is one of the best descriptions of Fi that I've seen. And described by a Ti! I've found most Fe see it as a random process, this sort of grounds it a bit in reality, and shows how it isn't guess work and is by no means just following a hunch.

 

[BlueScreen]

yes. Fi is too unpredictable to me. and since it doesn't necessarily correspond with the environment, it can be extremely damaging to the current situation when expressed (doesn't take into account social appropriateness). Fi people make me uncomfortable when they state a value judgment in such a way that creates some sort of non-playful division in the group dynamic.

i'm completely obsessed with social harmony (analogous to Te's need to create order). my social role is basically to be a mediator. i watch the feelings of everyone around me and the web between them, keeping that web in mind when choosing my actions. so sometimes i'll watch an Fi person shake the web unknowingly, and it's hard to reason them out of it, since their feelings don't even have to correspond to what is in front of them.

We shake the web, normally not unknowingly. At one extreme it can be destructive, at the other extreme it can be like MLK. Sometimes social norms and harmony are what is best, sometimes they are evil as all f**k. To everything there is a season..etc.

Can see what you mean by can't reason us out of it though. If you need to stop an ENFP in this sort of situation argue the effect of his actions rather than the facts they are based on. And move him to think through it more till he finds a better method of resolve. Judgment on the specifics of what to do is normally more of a weakness for us than perception about people and the situation. Not saying we don't normally have good enough judgment to get the effect we intended, just talking us through it can lower collateral .

 

[Glycerine]

We shake the web, normally not unknowingly. At one extreme it can be destructive, at the other extreme it can be like MLK. Sometimes social norms and harmony are what is best, sometimes they are evil as all f**k. To everything there is a season..etc.

Can see what you mean by can't reason us out of it though. If you need to stop an ENFP in this sort of situation argue the effect of his actions rather than the facts they are based on. And move him to think through it more till he finds a better method of resolve. Judgment on the specifics of what to do is normally more of a weakness for us than perception about people and the situation. Not saying we don't normally have good enough judgment to get the effect we intended, just talking us through it can lower collateral .

From what I have read, MLK was most likely INFJ. Having Fe does not mean you can't rock the boat and go against social norms. Just like Fi users, if an Fe user's values are violated, watch out. Also, "because the INFJ has such strong intuitive capabilities, they trust their own instincts above all else. This may result in an INFJ stubborness and tendency to ignore other people's opinions." Portrait of an INFJ This means that if social norms go against their strongly-held vision, INFJs tend to flat out reject them.

"Martin Luther King, Jr. (1929-1968) lived the life of oppression in the southern part of the United States during the post Great Depression era. As an INFJ type, King learned his philosophy of non-violence from Gandhi and applied it to the civil rights movement. King's idealism and willingness to suffer for his ideas was a main impetus for desegregation."
MBTI Personality Types

Most other sources say MLK is INFJ but a couple sources say ENFJ.
Another example of a Fe user rocking the boat is Nelson Mandela (most likely INFJ) of South Africa.

 

[BlueScreen]

From what I have read, MLK was most likely INFJ. Having Fe does not mean you can't rock the boat and go against social norms. Just like Fi users, if an Fe user's values are violated, watch out. Also, "because the INFJ has such strong intuitive capabilities, they trust their own instincts above all else. This may result in an INFJ stubborness and tendency to ignore other people's opinions." Portrait of an INFJ This means that if social norms go against their strongly-held vision, INFJs tend to flat out reject them.

"Martin Luther King, Jr. (1929-1968) lived the life of oppression in the southern part of the United States during the post Great Depression era. As an INFJ type, King learned his philosophy of non-violence from Gandhi and applied it to the civil rights movement. King's idealism and willingness to suffer for his ideas was a main impetus for desegregation."
MBTI Personality Types

Most other sources say MLK is INFJ but a couple sources say ENFJ.
Another example of a Fe user rocking the boat is Nelson Mandela (most likely INFJ) of South Africa.

The source you chose wasn't really the best, but I think you're right . I just watched the speech again. He's definitely an I, and his overuse of metaphors makes me think INFJ (though the preaching language was intentional for effect with the speech).

Anyway my point stands about ENFPs, we can go that way sometimes and go the other way sometimes.