Fe or Fi?

[Meowcat]

The interactions we've been having in this thread remind me of another member who was also wondering about their type, and I thought they were an ISTJ. I don't remember their username; I think they were also into fitness.

I see, are you able to put into words how they/I come off/what this style is like? Analytical? Or?

Well yeah, even if staying on track towards goals is your primary attitude, there is also the influence of the other cognitive functions. So there will be similarity between two different people of different types in terms of what they do, but differing amounts of each particular activity/state of mind, and different importance given to it.

Yeah. Thing is I don't know if staying on track towards goals is my *primary attitude*. I'm not sure if it is that or my dealing with immediate things having to respond to them immediately and taking care of them, get them done. That is my other big attitude or whatever.

I would not want to live without either one, though.

Reflection might not be the best term for it, because that might be more associated with Fi. But do you often have memories, or perhaps specific facts that you've learned, coming to your mind?

Right, reflection to me goes too deep in the mind. No, I don't often think of memories, that again would be too deep in the mind. I think of specific facts when they are relevant to the situation, I'm good at having the right fact coming up for the situation I am in, yeah. But it's just the fact on its own with nothing else connected to it. No past memories are connected to it.

So that part of Si as described in some places is off for me. If we mean details in front of me or these separate (concrete) facts coming up when relevant to the situation, then sure. But as soon as it's something that would take me away from what's in front of me, I find it draining.

So I just like to deal with what's in front of or I can talk about things not in front of me if I'm talking to someone else, otherwise not really. It is hard for me to focus inside, again. Whether that's introversion, or Ne, or whatever it is, it is hard.

The amount of Fi that an ISTJ uses differs considerably from one ISTJ to the next.

To draw a parallel, I am an INFJ with a lot of Ti; I even majored in mathematics. But another INFJ may have an aversion to logic and try to avoid it.

What you're describing seems to be using Te to combat the negativity of Fi. That sounds like a healthy way to do things assuming that you're an ISTJ, because Te use will give you energy, but Fi will drain it. Of course, Fi shouldn't be ignored completely, it has its place in the overall functioning of things, e.g. it can pull you back if you're attempting to make a move forward which will have negative consequences to the harmony which is keeping everything in balance.

The parallel for me as an INFJ is that socially oriented activities can keep me out of the flatness of excessive Ti use, but the Ti will pull the Fe back when the social move is in contradiction to logical principles, e.g. giving someone advice which is logically unsound.

(I'm using parallels to INFJ a lot because I understand that type a lot better than ISTJ, of course, and while the situational analysis of Ti+Se might be more what you're looking for, there's only so much of that that I can do)

It kinda does feel like it's overdoing the logic (Te? or otherwise whatever kind of deductive logic), in recent years due to dealing with those bad moods stuff.

When I get actions focused it's not just deductive logic analysing anymore. It's ofc still logical, the decision and the action. But it's more than what I do when I just analyse and try to find the solution while not feeling the emotions themselves. When I do have it and the action to take, then that is when I have dealt with the bad emotion fully so it goes away (until it comes back, lol).

So how does a low Fi ISTJ's Fi differ from the inferior Fi of ESTJ?

In terms of the theory, I'm not sure what the basis of that observation would be. If anything I would expect the opposite, because Fi is more geared towards deeper connections, and Fe has more of a tendency to expand its circle.

Ohh it didn't talk about deep connections for the ESTP, just an opportunity to socialise but already having the social (superficial) connections. And the ISTJ doesn't already have them, so that's why there was this difference. And yeah I see, interesting this would be Fe.

I suppose that Fe has more of a character-forming nature to it, sort of like it's acting, so I guess that makes sense.

Building up the character of the person who's being told to do the 50 push-ups?

From what I hear, STJs are big in the military. The hierarchical social structure, and emphasis on discipline in a physical sense would be appealing.

I thought of the military a long time ago but I wasn't interested in being a lowly subordinate lol

Tho getting to a better position is okay yeah

I have however never worked inside a "hierarchical social structure". I have done business with a business partner, have done my own informal business-y things, and have done freelancing, BUT I have never wanted to do the 9-5 job. And never considered putting in the time to get to a better position in the hierarchy at the workplace or whatever. I said I have never had a goal requiring decades of working for it, and this would be such a goal. When I talked of social status I meant having achievements and having objects/possessions that have value socially. If you want, you can see it as being in the very general hierarchy in society. But I have never done it in a controlled way like in the military or at a 9-5 job workplace.

Whatever that says about type, this is how my life has been, I'm not 100% controlled is something I can def say about myself. Still have 50/50 wrt the J/P traits.

Hmm, you might be describing Se and Ti there. Those are the 5th and 6th functions for ISTJ, and those are energising functions, but they can later in the order of considerations. So they can be like rewards for hard work.

Yeah I don't mind the idea of "rewards for hard work". Umm... IDK if I really do it as rewards for hard work though lol. Idk if I'm controlled enough for that. Or if I want to be. I basically just do do these things whenever. (See above with the workplace stuff)

I mean, I have not decided if I want to be that controlled.

To draw another parallel (I don't know how to describe it for ISTJ), for INFJ it's like... we start with a vision of how things will be, and then we turn that vision into reality, and that can be hard to do. But once it's there, in concrete form, it becomes something you can play with, and connect up with different things that are out there.

So ISTJ would start with something definite, then eventually make it into something abstract, which would be difficult, but then they find joy from the concrete things that come from it.

Maybe, my grip is sorta like this, but it's not really typical for me. I don't like the something abstract too much. It's tiring to do it.

Well... every function is "in the present" in the obvious sense that we exist in the present, so that's when we're using it. Se is the "most" in the present, because it doesn't bring much else into the equation when it's dealing with something (however it's not always completely in the present, because it can inwardly relive experiences). Si, then, is less in the present because it tends to bring past associations into the situation, e.g. remembering that an item is fragile so has to be handled carefully, or remember when you bought that item.

An example of when I personally use Si a lot is when I walk up/down the stairs. I have poor balance, so I pay careful attention to what I'm doing just in case something unexpected happens and I fall. I guess you could say I am very present at that time, because what I'm doing is paying careful attention, but I am paying careful attention in response to a mental note I have made for myself.

Again I have the problem here that I do not do these past associations. I mean when an item is fragile, I just automatically handle it carefully. I do not remember and don't want to spend time remembering when I bought the item. It would be draining.

The stairs example makes more sense. I do do careful attention when I really don't want the unexpected to happen, mainly so that I don't get too pissed & frustrated lol, because then you see, I have to act it out (again). My frustration threshold or whatever is really low. I do know that gets associated with giving up but I don't give up, I just act out the anger and then I can go on with the thing alright.

I can also do careful attention ofc if I know it would be too dangerous otherwise. Iguess like most people can

Thing is I don't often get scared or worry much. So I don't need careful attention in some situations where others seem to need it.

Anger can occur when we get thrown into our weaker functions. So perhaps you are being thrown into Ne because something unexpected is happening and you have to brainstorm, so what you're doing is returning to your stronger side.

I can't and won't brainstorm tho'. So yeah I guess I only have anger instead of that. Then I just try to analyse more methodically, try to verbalise logical reasoning more sometimes. Not often though, it usually still stays nonverbal. So the methodical approach would just simply be me forcing myself to examine the details of the issue more closely without leaving anything out.

That does require careful attention, actually. Which I do not have by default when I get at the new thing/situation/whatever.

That careful attention is what I have to switch to more consciously. But I can alright.

The emphasis on "steps", "methodical" does sound rather Te.

And yes, all functions learn from the past. Si just tends to be more explicit in bringing those past instances to mind.

I really am NOT explicit about it though. You need to take this into account for analysing what I say/write.

So yeah not explicit, it would be draining again.

When I am explicit about recalling memories, that is really rare and I do it in the context of a task only: if the task literally involves recalling them. Like I am asked to describe what I did yesterday. Like I did have a diary for a while. I also had a special experience as a kid and then I felt like I wanted to keep an autobiographical memory, however I don't spend time on methodically maintaining the memories for it. I just want to at least make sure though that I know what year something happened in, it's bad when I don't know what number to put on it.

So other than this, no. It would be really out of place if I just thought of past associations when dealing with things in front of me. Draining, just not me, not okay.

What I see in that is a unification of your conscious and unconscious functions. So there are various things in there that can be tied to different functions, but the way it all ties together seems to reflect how those functions fit into your overall worldview.

An example is that you associate social expectations, rules etc. with "moving forward". Fe is the 7th function for ISTJ, and the 7th and 8th functions do often fit into the overall story in terms of the notion of moving foward. It's relating to how when we are at our best, we're able to wield all 8 of our functions in an effective manner. They all fit together holistically.

That is interesting, I had no idea this would be Fe. How would you see it as Fe, can you elaborate?

Also what I notice about your philosophy is that it concerns the experience of actually being in the world. By contrast, my own philosophy deals largely with notions like free will, right/wrong, true/false, and I view these as existing "beyond" this world, and essentially being the prerequisites for it to exist. It's not until the foundation of universal ideas is laid that the reality of being is considered.

Lol, your last sentence, I don't know how that's even possible.


PS: If you ever get thoughts/ideas on these, I'm still interested:

1. Can you give me an example of "goals that are done for the purpose of exploring". What goal would be like that?
2. Se wielded in an intentional controlled manner
3. I mean I can be a straight line too moving to the goal but I also can do this moving around and you would say that's Ne or Se, yeah?, how would Se and Ne differ here?

 

[Pionart]

The thing about memory is interesting; I assumed that SJs would have memories come to their mind frequently, but perhaps this applies to some and not others. My own Si certainly seems to be memory related. I'm not sure what would be going on there, apart from: each function has multiple things associated with it, and you may relate to some and not to others.

Regarding many of the questions you have, much of this will have to remain unresolved. Intuition dominants (INJ and ENP) start with theory/speculation, and it is a later step in the process where this is made into something concrete. The number of speculations therefore exceeds the number of concrete descriptions, and even when a concrete description is formed, this may be hard to understand for a Sensing type.

I may return to this later, but no guarantees!

 

[Meowcat]

The thing about memory is interesting; I assumed that SJs would have memories come to their mind frequently, but perhaps this applies to some and not others. My own Si certainly seems to be memory related. I'm not sure what would be going on there, apart from: each function has multiple things associated with it, and you may relate to some and not to others.

Regarding many of the questions you have, much of this will have to remain unresolved. Intuition dominants (INJ and ENP) start with theory/speculation, and it is a later step in the process where this is made into something concrete. The number of speculations therefore exceeds the number of concrete descriptions, and even when a concrete description is formed, this may be hard to understand for a Sensing type.

I may return to this later, but no guarantees!

Alright, thanks for all the input; I'm really only interested in these (first one isn't MBTI)

- How do I come off that's similar to that other person
- Example for goal done for the purpose of exploring
- Se wielded in intentional controlled manner (sounds a whole lot like me this wording, bc it includes both "intentional" and "controlled" lol, well somewhat controlled)

I considered this a bit more btw. I know NO one who just / primarily lives for exploring stuff. I just don't, and never did. And where I said I'm not as emotional as that kind of exploring an alive world... I meant I'm more pragmatic so yeah I make a task out of it soon and then due to the pragmatism it's no longer so directly "alive".

***

Anyhow. Something else. I realised today that with feelings my main issue is I need to find their meaning. Their meaning in terms of what will become of them, of the relationship, what these feelings, emotions will lead to in the future for me with other people, what worse emotions or events; and also their meaning in terms of a larger context of the personal relationship. Like I need a perspective for them, to connect the dots. The best fitting/right perspective that fits all the events/actual facts best. This is hard for me to find and takes a lot of mental processing and energy but it helps when I manage it finally. It's where I feel so disoriented until this gets sorted. I could see how this is Inferior Intuition, as weak as to be Inferior even, tho' I don't relate to Inferior Ne offering multiple bad possibilities. I've got a more one track mind than that.

My other main issue seems like the things that people do with Fe - I don't do those things and that has caused me problems. In all honesty, I do not see myself "doing" Fe like that though, it would be too fake and too "not me". I can be polite and can care about not being rude in a social context, where some things definitely "jar" me as being too rude that I would never do myself; and I understand "white lies"/the innocent versions of "white lies" seem pretty normal to me, but ...I don't worry about Fe otherwise. Yeah, like this nuanced stuff about considering the other person's stuff...and then talk in this soft way... no. Not beyond those basics of not being rude and being okay with some really basic "white lies". The rest is just too much. Thanks.

So yeah I prefer to spend the time instead on my own internals. When it comes to feelings, emotions. Finding the meaning and bigger picture like above. This does touch on what others do emotionally in relationships, but it's primarily still about myself even in that context. Not about my own feelings though, just simply, my own internals. That doesn't really mean feelings all that much. My feelings I still do not "own". That is where I've related to inferior Feeling.

Today I did have an interesting experience. Where I was meeting someone, interacting with them for a while, talking and doing things together yeah, well, so we had a little fallout before and I wasn't sure about things. I kept monitoring myself real consciously, I don't usually do this!! I watched my own body language extra strongly, and I watched what reactions come up in me, and kept watching if I was behaving accordingly. Sortof the other person too, but I'm just able to monitor myself more, I have way more access to my own internals. It's not a LOT of access but it's way more compared to how much access I got to someone else's, lol. Um this is hard to explain but I wanted to keep some boundaries carefully. This internal monitoring relates to that. Anyway yeah eventually it all unfolded to be OK - gradually better and better. It was an interesting experience like I said. My trust issues can be dealt with after all, I think. Slowly.

 

[Vendrah]

I even majored in mathematics.

Usually use

[MENTION=39881]Meowcat[/MENTION] I hold still for ISTJ, and, as I said before, this adaptability is the thing that threats it. I am really not a believer on the single tertiary functions at all, so I dont think that "an ability to stay with an internal emotion long" is something related to the type of ISTJ. And actually, even if it would be related, it would be for F/T axis in favor for F.

I dont rely that much on these stress theories... i havent got anything that really led to believe me that people do get on their shadow or in their "reverse" functions (in related to dom or aux) when they are stressed. Ne-tard is supposed to be described not in terms of stress, but in terms of absence of Ne and being bad use Ne when the conditions force to. And I dont really consider the achile heels reliable for typing on my stats, I prefere to use it as a late resort, since Ive seen cases like ISFP being Ti-tard and more balanced stacks without a "tard" function and no visible achile heels, although we couldnt say these were unflawable Gods in earth.

Actually is that Fi, too. Again I feel pretty low Fi for standard ISTJ. Heh. High on adaptiveness, impatience, those achievements&goals, low on tuning into definite values and patience settling down for the same direction for decades. I mean high and low compared to standard ISTJ. Those things make me feel really un-ISTJ. I'm not saying I can't be ISTJ but I'm trying to make sense of it all still.

This is actually a strong point.
The case is, ISTJ could be a result of your adaptability. Could, or not.
But if it is, then tracking from which type you "came" from before that adaptability... Well, is way too much complicated for me for the moment, and I would likely arrive at a wrong result. ISTJ could be a result more for the moment than for a life-time.

 

[Meowcat]

[MENTION=39881]Meowcat[/MENTION] I hold still for ISTJ, and, as I said before, this adaptability is the thing that threats it. I am really not a believer on the single tertiary functions at all, so I dont think that "an ability to stay with an internal emotion long" is something related to the type of ISTJ. And actually, even if it would be related, it would be for F/T axis in favor for F.

I dont rely that much on these stress theories... i havent got anything that really led to believe me that people do get on their shadow or in their "reverse" functions (in related to dom or aux) when they are stressed. Ne-tard is supposed to be described not in terms of stress, but in terms of absence of Ne and being bad use Ne when the conditions force to. And I dont really consider the achile heels reliable for typing on my stats, I prefere to use it as a late resort, since Ive seen cases like ISFP being Ti-tard and more balanced stacks without a "tard" function and no visible achile heels, although we couldnt say these were unflawable Gods in earth.



This is actually a strong point.
The case is, ISTJ could be a result of your adaptability. Could, or not.
But if it is, then tracking from which type you "came" from before that adaptability... Well, is way too much complicated for me for the moment, and I would likely arrive at a wrong result. ISTJ could be a result more for the moment than for a life-time.

Hm that's interesting thinking. I'll consider this too.

I agree that being able to stay long with emotions would be F>T but I meant that relatively, ISTJ vs ESTJ.

OK, just one question. Have you ever heard ISTJ say they don't own their feelings, like totally detached from them?

I thought that was inferior Feeling but I'm curious about your input.

 

[Pionart]

Alright, thanks for all the input; I'm really only interested in these (first one isn't MBTI)

- How do I come off that's similar to that other person
- Example for goal done for the purpose of exploring
- Se wielded in intentional controlled manner (sounds a whole lot like me this wording, bc it includes both "intentional" and "controlled" lol, well somewhat controlled)

I considered this a bit more btw. I know NO one who just / primarily lives for exploring stuff. I just don't, and never did. And where I said I'm not as emotional as that kind of exploring an alive world... I meant I'm more pragmatic so yeah I make a task out of it soon and then due to the pragmatism it's no longer so directly "alive".

It's a similar "vibe", I don't know how to explain it beyond that. I use vibes to type people a lot by saying that they're probably the same type because they feel similar to me, it may or may not be something I can verbalise.

So right now I'm in "ESTP" mode. I'll tell you a bit about what's going on.

So I've been moving my body, like moving my arms in a kind of funny walk/dancing motion. So intentional Se can include bodily movements which are done impulsively but also intentionally.

Regarding goals for exploring, there's a sense right now that I want to have a good time, but I also feel that maybe bringing someone else in would help with that. So Fe can have social goals, like wanting to invite someone over so they can join in the fun. It's a party mode sort of thing. For Te it might be getting funds together to allow for material things for that purpose.

With INFJ, the drinking etc. which could be considered exploring is done for the purposes of getting into a certain mindset conducive to furthering spiritual goals and social ability etc. so that's the opposite version.

When I said it I mainly had theory in mind, like each function from the dominant to the inferior, is generally done in the context of the functions above it. So INFJ does Ni for everything, but prefers when Fe brings in Ni, when Ti brings in Fe and Ni, when Se brings in Ti and Fe and Ni. Since I'm speaking of theory it takes additional contemplation to get examples.

Another aspect of the Se is looking to the environment for immediate sources of actions, e.g. "oh that thing looks cool, I'll use that", and the overall state of mind is to have fun and enjoy.

Describing the functions in the unintentional form would be more difficult though, and may require the use of an insight that I will find in the future.

Hope that helps.

--

ESTP Jack Black

 

[Vendrah]

Hm that's interesting thinking. I'll consider this too.

I agree that being able to stay long with emotions would be F>T but I meant that relatively, ISTJ vs ESTJ.

OK, just one question. Have you ever heard ISTJ say they don't own their feelings, like totally detached from them?

I thought that was inferior Feeling but I'm curious about your input.

I live in the country with the highest % of ISTJs in the world (they make almost 1/4 th of population) and I met with different ages.
I dont remember any of them talking about feelings at all. Feelings for them are a matter of lack of focus.

 

[Meowcat]

It's a similar "vibe", I don't know how to explain it beyond that. I use vibes to type people a lot by saying that they're probably the same type because they feel similar to me, it may or may not be something I can verbalise.

So right now I'm in "ESTP" mode. I'll tell you a bit about what's going on.

So I've been moving my body, like moving my arms in a kind of funny walk/dancing motion. So intentional Se can include bodily movements which are done impulsively but also intentionally.

Regarding goals for exploring, there's a sense right now that I want to have a good time, but I also feel that maybe bringing someone else in would help with that. So Fe can have social goals, like wanting to invite someone over so they can join in the fun. It's a party mode sort of thing. For Te it might be getting funds together to allow for material things for that purpose.

With INFJ, the drinking etc. which could be considered exploring is done for the purposes of getting into a certain mindset conducive to furthering spiritual goals and social ability etc. so that's the opposite version.

When I said it I mainly had theory in mind, like each function from the dominant to the inferior, is generally done in the context of the functions above it. So INFJ does Ni for everything, but prefers when Fe brings in Ni, when Ti brings in Fe and Ni, when Se brings in Ti and Fe and Ni. Since I'm speaking of theory it takes additional contemplation to get examples.

Another aspect of the Se is looking to the environment for immediate sources of actions, e.g. "oh that thing looks cool, I'll use that", and the overall state of mind is to have fun and enjoy.

Describing the functions in the unintentional form would be more difficult though, and may require the use of an insight that I will find in the future.

Hope that helps.

The theory is interesting, based on it I definitely have inferior Feeling (either Fe or Fi). Because I go through logical reasoning/deductive logic & a lot of concrete details, and then I attempt to see the intuitive conceptual "big picture", before I get to see any emotions/feelings and make any judgments related to them. But it's also true that sometimes I get to see how I feel/what emotions I have and then I can go back to logic and details and then I can go on to derive an intuitive conceptual "big picture" for the future. But to get to see how I feel/emotions/blah blah, I do go through the attempt to see the intuitive whatevers first (not that that works well, I do a LOT of concrete detail before I can get there). And infact, if I do this (optional) T/S->N->F->T/S->N, at this point, if I got that extra "big picture", if I go on to ->F then I might not be able to get out of the "grip" and have to go through stuff again. If it stops at ->N after the second cycle, it just means I got an additional neat insight. And if I'm lucky I only have to do the T/S->N->F->T/S once and then I am back to normal. Did this make sense?

Also I would say I can have some very basic emotions - anger, excitement/enjoyment, rarely sadness - without doing all that, but when it comes to any of what's described as Feeling....then it's the above process.



As for the description of intentional Se etc., that was interesting too. I got to say again, I most definitely do not do any Sensing in context of Intuition like you describe it, lol not that that's news. But it's incredible to me, "exploring is done for the purposes of getting into a certain mindset conducive to furthering spiritual goals". I can't even imagine how that's done.


"Another aspect of the Se is looking to the environment for immediate sources of actions, e.g. "oh that thing looks cool, I'll use that", and the overall state of mind is to have fun and enjoy."

Yeah no no it's been a while that I wanted to have fun&enjoy much, lol.


As for "bodily movements which are done impulsively but also intentionally" & "looking to the environment for immediate sources of actions", in my case it's more like doing impulsive movements or looking to the environment for immediate options to be able to take action - for something that's just come up where I want to respond to it and I frame it all, the desire to respond and move etc, for some immediate goal (to win, or just to get something) or for a task. Just to justify doing it, bc just having random scattered emotional fun isn't enough of a reason. Then with this intentional action, I can have fun of sorts too, but it's really "controlled fun". That's where I don't relate to SP, I relate only in terms of picking up the concrete options for immediate action. But it's not done l'art pour l'art ever in the way you describe (or not for long), I'm just not emotional enough for that either... so the Se serves something else. So with that, in the 8-function models I can be SJ alright.

And with Inferior Feeling that's ESTJ. Or if I'm P enough, ISTP is not totally excluded yet, I'm not socially very extraverted anyhow.


EDIT: I feel P enough rightnow, yesterday I didn't keep to the plan and just did whatever I felt like doing. I didn't even make a detailed plan but whatever I did decide I changed too fast. But I felt tired and stuff and then obviously it's harder to keep control for a predetermined direction. Tho' in general yeah I can get totally off track easily, before I make myself go back to it eventually. .... That sounds like a J that easily gets P or something But then sometimes it's not even me wanting to get off track, I just swerve off it somehow without even noticing. Again, being tired, being influenced by messed up moods etc doesn't help. But it's also that it's hard to keep a focus on the future, that's a big issue for me.

 

[Meowcat]

I live in the country with the highest % of ISTJs in the world (they make almost 1/4 th of population) and I met with different ages.
I dont remember any of them talking about feelings at all. Feelings for them are a matter of lack of focus.

And how about ESTJs?

 

[Pionart]

The theory is interesting, based on it I definitely have inferior Feeling (either Fe or Fi). Because I go through logical reasoning/deductive logic & a lot of concrete details, and then I attempt to see the intuitive conceptual "big picture", before I get to see any emotions/feelings and make any judgments related to them. But it's also true that sometimes I get to see how I feel/what emotions I have and then I can go back to logic and details and then I can go on to derive an intuitive conceptual "big picture" for the future. But to get to see how I feel/emotions/blah blah, I do go through the attempt to see the intuitive whatevers first (not that that works well, I do a LOT of concrete detail before I can get there). And infact, if I do this (optional) T/S->N->F->T/S->N, at this point, if I got that extra "big picture", if I go on to ->F then I might not be able to get out of the "grip" and have to go through stuff again. If it stops at ->N after the second cycle, it just means I got an additional neat insight. And if I'm lucky I only have to do the T/S->N->F->T/S once and then I am back to normal. Did this make sense?

Yep, in that case you'd be ESTJ.

I was pretty sure about Si+Te, but really making a guess about which came first. Hearing you put it like that and how well it lines up with the theory of function order makes ESTJ sound like the most likely option.

 

[Vendrah]

And how about ESTJs?

I am in doubt with 2 people, that seems sometimes more ESFJ than ESTJ...
And there is one in my teen days, he could be ENTJ that needed to be realistic?
So, I dont really have a clear of a picture of ESTJ...

The cloudy ones from these ESFJ gives that an emotion show up in a quite darky way, which Id prefer to not describe.
The one ENTJ one is quite a tough guy.. Which lives in a life tougher than me. I dont recall him being much emotive, if he was ever it should be in private. He needed to pass some strong image in his context, which even makes me doubt if the typing is right. Im not that good typing people on real world (I dont try much actually, now I just did mentally some "estimates").

 

[Meowcat]

I am in doubt with 2 people, that seems sometimes more ESFJ than ESTJ...
And there is one in my teen days, he could be ENTJ that needed to be realistic?
So, I dont really have a clear of a picture of ESTJ...

The cloudy ones from these ESFJ gives that an emotion show up in a quite darky way, which Id prefer to not describe.
The one ENTJ one is quite a tough guy.. Which lives in a life tougher than me. I dont recall him being much emotive, if he was ever it should be in private. He needed to pass some strong image in his context, which even makes me doubt if the typing is right. Im not that good typing people on real world (I dont try much actually, now I just did mentally some "estimates").

Ah I see. Heh the ESFJ vs ESTJ conundrum. My brother tried out MBTI once and claimed he can't tell if I'm ESFJ or ESTJ, lol. Those were his two picks for me. He can see me as emotional, and that's why he said that. But I think I can be seen that way only at home really or with other very close people and only if they kinda can make me emotional (not everyone can). I would say if your ESxJs are emotional just in private with the right people, they aren't ESFJ either.

 

[Meowcat]

Another note. I just talked with someone who types as Fe inferior and they said they are uncomfortable with strong emotions, "even good ones to a certain extent". And that they have a hard time trusting them.

And I realised that that's like me except I'm more uncomfy with "soft feelz", plain strong emotion is easier to tolerate tho definitely not easy either. I can control them more easily though yes, than feelings that are softer and go deep. Them going deep it's scary because then I don't know where too much sensitivity leads, where it will end up. And overall the part about being uncomfortable and problems with trusting these feelings, yeah that's totally spot on.

Really with strong emotion it's easier because I can define them more easily and just hold them, keep them under control that way. Including their expression. I'm just not worried about that stuff. It's never a question of where they will lead, because I don't see this as having other consequences, I don't see them as leading anywhere (and to a direction that I cannot see well!!) like with the deeper feelings. They are just really way more simple and in the moment.

So overall. Intensity is less of a concern than depth.

Is that like a difference between inferior Fe vs Fi?

 

[Vendrah]

Another note. I just talked with someone who types as Fe inferior and they said they are uncomfortable with strong emotions, "even good ones to a certain extent". And that they have a hard time trusting them.

And I realised that that's like me except I'm more uncomfy with "soft feelz", plain strong emotion is easier to tolerate tho definitely not easy either. I can control them more easily though yes, than feelings that are softer and go deep. Them going deep it's scary because then I don't know where too much sensitivity leads, where it will end up. And overall the part about being uncomfortable and problems with trusting these feelings, yeah that's totally spot on.

Really with strong emotion it's easier because I can define them more easily and just hold them, keep them under control that way. Including their expression. I'm just not worried about that stuff. It's never a question of where they will lead, because I don't see this as having other consequences, I don't see them as leading anywhere (and to a direction that I cannot see well!!) like with the deeper feelings. They are just really way more simple and in the moment.

So overall. Intensity is less of a concern than depth.

Is that like a difference between inferior Fe vs Fi?

I dont rely much on these inferior descriptions as I said before.

I can look later for answer, but the problem of ESXX types is that I dont have much data on them, except about country distributions which dont help much for the case.

 

[Meowcat]

Ofc I'm back. For a short time. Can an ESTJ or how can an ESTJ feel they were never part of the system entirely? It says everywhere ESTJs are so community oriented and leading the communities. Not really, that's not me. There was a time when I didn't even believe such a thing as a "community" existed.

Also: do all Fi types like to feel warm or just feely inside? Bc I never do, really not for longer than 1-2 seconds. I'm pretty neutral or "cold" on the inside and I prefer it that way. I've read it about ISTJs that they feel very emotional and feely inside and even warm. That's not my preference, but I can understand if inferior Fi makes ESTJs different. Am I right on that one?

If anything, I can look warm outwardly, not too often though. But I can do it outwardly more than inside.

I just really have very little tolerance about being filled up with feelings or emotions internally. I read ESTJs have discomfort with emotion, I don't mind them, they can be good even, as long as they can pass fast and then it can be even good, enjoyable. But they must pass fast, go away, removed, or be released somehow. I don't have tolerance about being/staying filled with feelings/emotions internally. I want to always be neutral/"cold" inside and have emotions only for these very short times inside.

***

To be clear I'm not totally unemotional, I'm just not cerebral or stoic enough for that, but my emotions - when I do have them - come and go pretty fast. And that's how I like it. So I get hot-headed easily but it's for short times. And same for most other emotions by default. When I had a period not so long ago where I had emotions a lot more, it was making me completely nonfunctional so it's like my brand of logic just doesn't work with that.

What works for me is translate/convert the emotion into an action plan or immediate action asap. Action plan is also executed, if it can't be done immediately then I have a set time for when to do it. If I can't convert it into action I'm going to have a problem. But if I can convert it into action then I actually can enjoy it alot. I feel more alive then compared to if I'm just totally detached and neutral; though nothing wrong with that either, but I do want this too some of the time i.e. the emotions converted into actions.

I find verbalising emotions still doesn't work well for me in that it doesn't help find relief or release much. Ability to verbalise about emotions helps with communication of them but I do not enjoy doing so, I only learned to do it some because it's necessary for some situations. Only action gives the relief and release - and enjoyment if it was a positive emotion / or the solution if it was a negative emotion. I've also been told I sometimes express emotions in some social situations but I don't notice doing so, it's not intentional. And I don't like to notice.

 

[Meowcat]

Edit: example of expressing - I view the situation as a friendly one so I'm going to have a positive attitude internally (but I don't feel emotional). And I'm told I look like I put on a big smile then. It can happen that this overrides my actual feeling (?) so for example I was talking to a therapist about a bad, sad situation and I was having the big smile on and I was told of that. I noticed then that yeah I am doing that expression. And I didn't like noticing consciously. I had only a vague "image" of it even then, when I tried to notice consciously (which I didn't like doing). So anyway my decision that the situation is a socially friendly one, that overrode expression of the actual emotional content of what I was saying.

This happened mainly though because I was internally pretty neutral, emotionally detached about it. Because, it takes time for me to actually get emotional about emotionally difficult situations, or emotionally too new situations. I have a delay... I can get completely out of sync with the actual "timeline" of emotional events happening. My own "timeline" internally can be totally out of sync with that with my emotional reactions only coming later.

So for example, recently I had an issue with someone where I would accidentally show some tears, even though I never do that, I always hide such stuff. I was just in a strange mindset because I did show expression of this sadness when I usually do not. It was so strange, like I lost my toughness for a second and like I couldn't help it. That was bad, not being in control like that. (I never want that again.) Then they did a personal comment/a little attack emotionally at that. Then I just said nothing. A bit later they tried to repair by being nice. Then they were again extra nice maybe half an hour later. I was still not reacting to any of that. Only days later did I react to the original personal attack. I was alone then. It was pretty extreme. And then it took even more time to get as far as taking in their positive inputs that they did soon after the original issue. So I was totally out of sync with the timeline of the actual events, my own only followed later.

I want to add that this usually isn't like this, because I usually don't even express emotions like this. In social situations sure sometimes I do like I said above. But this was new that I would show/express more personal stuff. Unintentionally, of course. It was also new that the other person would notice that it would help if they repaired the issue by adding the positivity.

 

[Meowcat]

*bump* Shouldn't there be more people on here with the corona virus

 

[Sabbathhhank]

*bump* Shouldn't there be more people on here with the corona virus

Just to be extra obnoxious people started walking around all day and staring in peoples windows to their house. They started doing this, I don’t know why more irrational belligerent and crazy unmitigated mob mentality. They started wearing all black too and you hear dumbbells being out of stock in stores show creepy. Who knows, worshipping the dark arts probably I.e. Satan/lucifer.

If they haven’t started putting poisonous chemicals in the foods they keep scurrying right up past my back whenever it’s turned, like how damned is Canada? But you know, it’s the worlds first post-national country.

 

[Sabbathhhank]

I have a hard time with understanding the differences with Fe/Fi, I can understand what Fe does but it doesn’t really make sense to me, what? Extroverted feelings, huh? okay. Obviously feelings are real and that they matter, I can’t believe that b.s is still propagated so then of course, the only socially acceptable emotions are the extroverted kind.

I grew up in Canada, so I don’t by an American standard it could potentially hard to tell exactly how my feelings function, but I know the extroverted feelers are really gregarious and extreme here and in some countries. America’s tame in comparison. I guess ironically on an outward level, my extroverted feelings don’t make sense, whilst it’s the opposite with most people but it’s as simple as my most inward, personal and authentic feelings are often denied or disregarded thus, it’s hard to extrovert outward feelings as thirty are in discordant with my true feelings.

I used to be, if I hadn’t endured so much hardship, I used to be all about “connecting to other people” or it mattered to me a lot, so it’s hard for me to say. Fe is about connecting with others yet, Fi desires harmonious connection with others.

The way I see it I’m just a feeler I guess, who represses/introverts their feelings because they’re not considered socially acceptable enough to others in a conventional sense thus that’s what my pain is, deep desire to connect with others yet seemingly out of place in world.

 

[Oaky]

I have a hard time with understanding the differences with Fe/Fi, I can understand what Fe does but it doesn’t really make sense to me, what? Extroverted feelings, huh? Okay.

One way to think of it is as the difference between trying to 'fit in' (Fe) and trying to 'be yourself' (Fi).