Fe or Fi?

[Pionart]

[MENTION=39881]Meowcat[/MENTION]

That internal store of sensory impressions is unconscious? Mine has to be because I do not see it consciously. I relate to being able to remember some things in detail (tho' then some other things I just completely forget that they ever happened) but I don't see an "internal store of sensory impressions".

I suppose you'd only be seeing the part that is relevant to what you're doing at the time, but at least in theory the store would be there. With Ni, I apply a conceptual understanding to situations, so whereas with Ne they see the patterns that manifest directly with what they're perceiving, Ni is seeing things in terms of a pattern they're already aware of (but can also become aware of new patterns). So there would theoretically be a store of patterns, but it's generally accessed one pattern at a time. There are likely to be overarching patterns though, which would be a philosophy, just as Si has a philosophy of the world but it's based more on the facts of how the world is, rather than an other-worldly symbolism.

I mean, I really am more specific than "a sense of looking for something and it can be hard to say what it is exactly". For me it is easy to say what it is exactly.

Yes, perhaps that's the case generally with Si. Being primarily an Ni user, it's something I'm not sure about, but it makes sense that an Si would know what they're looking for more than an Ni user would.

I don't stay in one place

I like to move more than that

Well yes, with extroverted judgment there would be movement, but the Si would keep you focused on your goal, whereas Ne would jump more from one thing to the next.

exploring all day without some goal and achievement (yes competition too), that seems really aimless to me. I mean I'd feel like there is no...no higher purpose?

That sounds like a really J thing to say. I would imagine a P would be much more comfortable exploring for exploration's sake, and in fact prefer goals that are done for the purpose of exploring.

I'm similar in a different way, in that I tend to want to engage with the external world in ways that further my "vision" of how things are. An example is drinking alcohol. I don't generally like the physical experience of drinking alcohol, but I like being in an altered state of consciousness, because it allows me to see the world in ways that thus far have been helping me get to where I want to go. Though, I also do like sugary drinks and certain kinds of food, and that seems to be physical pleasure for the sake of physical pleasure, so I do engage in that to a degree.

Another example would be going for walks - I tend to go for walks for the sake of stimulating my mind, because I find that the act of walking allows for long trains of thought to develop, which can lead me to new understanding. And internet browsing too, is done for the purpose of discovery, transformation, acting out a role/story etc.

What is it like when Se is wielded in an intentional controlled manner?

I don't have an answer for this right now. Hopefully I'll probe my mind later and see if I can garner a response.

Um, if I look at something's details for a specific reason it's usually for some (immediate/concrete) goal like, actual example, here's this new type of tin/can I never saw before and no I don't know how it works, so... so I'll look at its details closely, poke it a bit (I somehow learn faster when I do that)

That's got to do with the internal store I mentioned earlier. It seems that you're taking notes of the details which you want to internalise about the object, so that when you see it again, you can bring those details to mind without needing to look at it as closely the next time.

I did a similar thing with maths, where I would look at the formula until I had internalised it, and by that point I could solve a lot of maths problems which worked on the same principle without needing to give it much thought, and generally I either didn't have to remember the formula, or I had understood the formula so well that remembering it came naturally.

Or I just enjoy looking at it for a short time bc it's cool.

This might be the Se aspect. All types have all 8 functions, and Se is generally a pleasurable function for SJs to use, it just doesn't come as naturally. Though it might be Si doing it on the other hand. I know that I can think an idea is really profound, and I think Ni is noting that rather than Ne, though I haven't given this question sufficient reflection.

PS: I realised you said earlier "sees an artistic item, and feels a sense of personal transformation regarding the item". For the INFJ example. I forgot to say that I don't do that either and I don't even understand this but it sounds cool.

Yeah it's quite surreal when it happens. It's like... staring at something, and kind of zoning out but also becoming really immersed in what's being looked at, and feeling a kind of fiery passion igniting inside which is having an as-yet unknown effect.

Sometimes those aesthetic experiences can really be life changing.


Funnily enough, I used to think I was an ISTJ, because I was trying to figure out which my dominant function was, and since I didn't understand the functions too concretely, I thought that: because the environment was clear to me, I was using Sensing, but I was viewing the environment in this really aesthetic kind of way, so I figured it was subjective, so I put that together and decided it was Si. Also I had read Jung speaking of Si as being aesthetic, so that confirmed it for me. Really, I was using Se combined with Ni, and Si was a totally different process, but it took me a long time to figure that out.

 

[Vendrah]

[MENTION=39881]Meowcat[/MENTION]



I suppose you'd only be seeing the part that is relevant to what you're doing at the time, but at least in theory the store would be there. With Ni, I apply a conceptual understanding to situations, so whereas with Ne they see the patterns that manifest directly with what they're perceiving, Ni is seeing things in terms of a pattern they're already aware of (but can also become aware of new patterns). So there would theoretically be a store of patterns, but it's generally accessed one pattern at a time. There are likely to be overarching patterns though, which would be a philosophy, just as Si has a philosophy of the world but it's based more on the facts of how the world is, rather than an other-worldly symbolism.



Yes, perhaps that's the case generally with Si. Being primarily an Ni user, it's something I'm not sure about, but it makes sense that an Si would know what they're looking for more than an Ni user would.



Well yes, with extroverted judgment there would be movement, but the Si would keep you focused on your goal, whereas Ne would jump more from one thing to the next.



That sounds like a really J thing to say. I would imagine a P would be much more comfortable exploring for exploration's sake, and in fact prefer goals that are done for the purpose of exploring.

I'm similar in a different way, in that I tend to want to engage with the external world in ways that further my "vision" of how things are. An example is drinking alcohol. I don't generally like the physical experience of drinking alcohol, but I like being in an altered state of consciousness, because it allows me to see the world in ways that thus far have been helping me get to where I want to go. Though, I also do like sugary drinks and certain kinds of food, and that seems to be physical pleasure for the sake of physical pleasure, so I do engage in that to a degree.

Another example would be going for walks - I tend to go for walks for the sake of stimulating my mind, because I find that the act of walking allows for long trains of thought to develop, which can lead me to new understanding. And internet browsing too, is done for the purpose of discovery, transformation, acting out a role/story etc.



I don't have an answer for this right now. Hopefully I'll probe my mind later and see if I can garner a response.



That's got to do with the internal store I mentioned earlier. It seems that you're taking notes of the details which you want to internalise about the object, so that when you see it again, you can bring those details to mind without needing to look at it as closely the next time.

I did a similar thing with maths, where I would look at the formula until I had internalised it, and by that point I could solve a lot of maths problems which worked on the same principle without needing to give it much thought, and generally I either didn't have to remember the formula, or I had understood the formula so well that remembering it came naturally.



This might be the Se aspect. All types have all 8 functions, and Se is generally a pleasurable function for SJs to use, it just doesn't come as naturally. Though it might be Si doing it on the other hand. I know that I can think an idea is really profound, and I think Ni is noting that rather than Ne, though I haven't given this question sufficient reflection.



Yeah it's quite surreal when it happens. It's like... staring at something, and kind of zoning out but also becoming really immersed in what's being looked at, and feeling a kind of fiery passion igniting inside which is having an as-yet unknown effect.

Sometimes those aesthetic experiences can really be life changing.


Funnily enough, I used to think I was an ISTJ, because I was trying to figure out which my dominant function was, and since I didn't understand the functions too concretely, I thought that: because the environment was clear to me, I was using Sensing, but I was viewing the environment in this really aesthetic kind of way, so I figured it was subjective, so I put that together and decided it was Si. Also I had read Jung speaking of Si as being aesthetic, so that confirmed it for me. Really, I was using Se combined with Ni, and Si was a totally different process, but it took me a long time to figure that out.

Im a little bit lazy to read all your texts, so what you basically think? ISTJ?

 

[Meowcat]

Added more lines on impatience/details

I suppose you'd only be seeing the part that is relevant to what you're doing at the time, but at least in theory the store would be there.

(...)

That's got to do with the internal store I mentioned earlier. It seems that you're taking notes of the details which you want to internalise about the object, so that when you see it again, you can bring those details to mind without needing to look at it as closely the next time.

Hmm but how does this differ from Se? Both Si and Se are in the present btw, yeah?

Anyway to be clear I look at the details to figure out how it works to be able to use it, like I said I get more analytical and I try to do it methodically if I remember to be methodical. To avoid the frustration/anger that otherwise will come up if I run into an obstacle (if it's not easy to figure out the thing right away). Tbh it happens too easily that I first get pissed and act it out a bit then I calm down and then I'm finally methodical. Instead of remembering right away that that would help, lol. But when I'm impatient it's hard to remember to be methodical until I got rid of the anger enough Iguess.

So. Those are the details I internalise, that relate to how the thing works. And the steps that I figure out to be able to use the thing. Like there I do try to be methodical at least a little. Easier to remember to be methodical at that point, comes way more easily to me.

And of course after I figured out the thing, I won't need to look at it as closely as the first time, that seems logical to me that I don't have to explore again as if I had never seen it before, seems like a basic thing for anyone, learning and remembering what you learned is basic I mean. The details I bring to mind are the above ones, how it works, what steps to do to deal with the thing so that it works predictably. Yes the details of course include how the thing looks but it's analytical logical too to be able to do the steps that I figured out.

With Ni, I apply a conceptual understanding to situations, so whereas with Ne they see the patterns that manifest directly with what they're perceiving, Ni is seeing things in terms of a pattern they're already aware of (but can also become aware of new patterns). So there would theoretically be a store of patterns, but it's generally accessed one pattern at a time. There are likely to be overarching patterns though, which would be a philosophy, just as Si has a philosophy of the world but it's based more on the facts of how the world is, rather than an other-worldly symbolism.

My philosophy of the world as it is would be, there is no solipsism...you definitely die if you jump off that cliff. There actually exist things outside you and you do have to take them into account. And tbh that's good.

My philosophy of myself in the world is that I'm this active person interacting with the world, and there is an abundance and variety of things to have/do things with, and overcoming/conquering complex hard challenges.

My philosophy of society in the world is that it exists with all the social expectations and rules and norms having adapted to the environment and that it's good to have society for us/humanity to be able to keep moving forward.

These are the things I could think of when you mentioned overall philosophies about the world. It's definitely fact based but the second one has some inspiration too about the challenges part and the moving forward part in the third one.

Well yes, with extroverted judgment there would be movement, but the Si would keep you focused on your goal, whereas Ne would jump more from one thing to the next.

Oh yeah, I move around, even jump around, while keeping in mind the immediate goal to get there and get it done right away. I mean I can be a straight line too moving to the goal but I also can do this moving around and you would say that's Ne or Se, yeah?, how would Se and Ne differ here?

That sounds like a really J thing to say. I would imagine a P would be much more comfortable exploring for exploration's sake, and in fact prefer goals that are done for the purpose of exploring.

Ah yeah, all the moving around it's also exploring, but I won't do it without the goal lol. I like to do it in the context of the goal, to achieve something, but otherwise....it gets aimless.

Can you give me an example of "goals that are done for the purpose of exploring". What goal would be like that?

I'm similar in a different way, in that I tend to want to engage with the external world in ways that further my "vision" of how things are. An example is drinking alcohol. I don't generally like the physical experience of drinking alcohol, but I like being in an altered state of consciousness, because it allows me to see the world in ways that thus far have been helping me get to where I want to go. Though, I also do like sugary drinks and certain kinds of food, and that seems to be physical pleasure for the sake of physical pleasure, so I do engage in that to a degree.

Another example would be going for walks - I tend to go for walks for the sake of stimulating my mind, because I find that the act of walking allows for long trains of thought to develop, which can lead me to new understanding. And internet browsing too, is done for the purpose of discovery, transformation, acting out a role/story etc.

Interesting about the alcohol, how did it help you so far, just out of curiosity have you got an example?

And "physical pleasure for the sake of physical pleasure", yeah, ofc, I'm sure most people do engage in it some.

And walks um, holy no way in hell that I'd want to take a walk to stimulate my mind. Interesting though

I don't have an answer for this right now. Hopefully I'll probe my mind later and see if I can garner a response.

I'd be really interested in it. (Re: Se wielded in an intentional controlled manner)

I did a similar thing with maths, where I would look at the formula until I had internalised it, and by that point I could solve a lot of maths problems which worked on the same principle without needing to give it much thought, and generally I either didn't have to remember the formula, or I had understood the formula so well that remembering it came naturally.

I don't internalise logical things just by looking at them though. I do have to analyse them to internalise them.

This might be the Se aspect. All types have all 8 functions, and Se is generally a pleasurable function for SJs to use, it just doesn't come as naturally. Though it might be Si doing it on the other hand. I know that I can think an idea is really profound, and I think Ni is noting that rather than Ne, though I haven't given this question sufficient reflection.

I think everything I read about Se, it does seem all right, tho' see above yeah about how I want to do this stuff in the context of some achievement or goal.

Like the hilly trails again...I really virtually never just run up hard some hill just 'cause I feel like it, I'm just not emotional enough for that, I want more out of it than that. At the minimum I want to make a challenge or a competition out of it. A competition does need someone else to be there, while just doing a challenge is possible alone too and I do do that. So yeah to me that's how I want to get somewhere with it, either an immediate goal or a long term goal.

That's just how I am with everything really, I can feel I'm on an adventure, enjoying it, excitement blah blah, but it's absolutely gotta be in the above context.

Yeah it's quite surreal when it happens. It's like... staring at something, and kind of zoning out but also becoming really immersed in what's being looked at, and feeling a kind of fiery passion igniting inside which is having an as-yet unknown effect.

Sometimes those aesthetic experiences can really be life changing.

You know when I look at good art I usually just "see"/"feel" some really vague slight abstract "mood". I dunno as I got older I sometimes see more than just that now. It can now be a specific emotional experience sometimes.

Funnily enough, I used to think I was an ISTJ, because I was trying to figure out which my dominant function was, and since I didn't understand the functions too concretely, I thought that: because the environment was clear to me, I was using Sensing, but I was viewing the environment in this really aesthetic kind of way, so I figured it was subjective, so I put that together and decided it was Si. Also I had read Jung speaking of Si as being aesthetic, so that confirmed it for me. Really, I was using Se combined with Ni, and Si was a totally different process, but it took me a long time to figure that out.

Oh... well I saw the Jung excerpts where it says Sensing is aesthetic, Se too. I'm aesthetic in that I like to have good looking things and I care about my looks too yes. The "cool" factor too yeah. So I don't know if you meant that kind of aesthetics when you said you look at your environment in an aesthetic kind of way.

I gotta add where I read that Jung says that Sensing is just really about being an aesthete and a good life experience, it was kinda just.... I'm gonna say it feels the same aimless thing as with the description of yours that Se just explores and that's all it does. I mean it's OK but if life was just about this umm.... I don't know. It's not enough. There needs to be meaning too. And the goals and challenges.

 

[Meowcat]

[MENTION=38618]Bismuth Blitz[/MENTION]

How are Te doms a very ambiverted type? (I saw a post of yours mentioning this)

 

[Meowcat]

I'm going to add a list of the things I'm best at

- Navigation (outside in the world/physically)
- Perseverance with the will to go on with something to get to the goal/desire
- Some sports, endurance in general
- Perseverance mentally, also patience with logical or other details
- Some logic skills (deductive logic, some maths -- all good for things like legal details, concrete enough science details etc....)
- Fast efficiency and decisiveness in everyday things, I like even some crisis situations as long as it's concrete and immediate stuff.
- Dealing with concrete obstacles

And a list of things I'm worst with

- Sensitive feelings / intimacy in relationships
- Making sense of my internals
- Imagination of future
- Not great with lateral or very far-fetched / "original" thinking especially when I'm really focused on deductive reasoning. Hopeless at it then
- Repressing anger (it's impossible for me to repress)
- Dealing with emotional obstacles ... god


If I had to choose 3 things from the first list, then, in no particular order: Navigation, perseverance to never give up, logic skills

And if I had to choose 1 thing from the second list, then: Dealing with emotional obstacles

 

[Meowcat]

I was also thinking about adding adaptability to the first list, but I am not sure how good I am with that compared to others. I tried to add things where I'm definitely good compared to others. But then with decisiveness for example, I didn't realise until paying some more attention that others have problems where it's totally smooth sailing for me with decision-making. I think adaptability is like that too in some situations. I don't even just mean crisis situations though those too. But yeah I didn't add it to the list, because I am not sure, I never checked enough about how others are with it.


Thoughts? Does this list give anything to anyone? [MENTION=32874]Vendrah[/MENTION] [MENTION=22833]Legion[/MENTION] [MENTION=39780]noname3788[/MENTION] [MENTION=40271]mancino[/MENTION]


Also Vendrah -- and mancino, as I ask about ESTJ too --

"ESTP leading is more about "driving" a team through an experience (sports related but not limited to), and ESTP ambitions should be more towards achievement linked on experiences, more about the experience itself rather than a specific and straight goal. I think that ESTP ambitions should be more driven towards having a blast experience in a competitive enviroment."

So with ESTJ, having a blast with the competitiveness is not really about experiencing anything, right?

For me it's like, I like to have that blast in a competitive environment, I like the experience of that specifically, but the experience is just that, not really about having just light fun or whatever sensory fun or whatever stereotypes of relaxed SPs bc I'm anything but relaxed with it.

What is the primary focus for ESTJ when in a competitive environment/why do they like competition/how do they do it?

 

[Pionart]

Im a little bit lazy to read all your texts, so what you basically think? ISTJ?

I'm thinking ISTJ, yes. I'm reminded of other people that I've typed as ISTJ on this forum in terms of the writing style. I haven't done the function-order read thing, so ESTJ could still be possible.

How are Te doms a very ambiverted type? (I saw a post of yours mentioning this)

Te doms aren't very extroverted if you use the socialising definition of extroversion.

By the internal/reflective versus external/active definition, Te doms (usually) are clearly extroverted, because they're so focused on getting things done and working towards goals. The extroverts who are hard to pick as being extroverted by that definition are the Ne doms, because it can be hard to understand how ideas can be an external/objective sort of thing, and a lot of the activity happens in a way that seems internal, but ideas/patterns do have an objective character, where an idea can be perceived in its own right, and not in terms of the internal store of the individual.

An example of a Te dom would be Henry Rollins (ENTJ). By the sounds of it, he's a clear, clear extrovert due to his focus on being productive, not wasting time and the likes, however on a social level he might seem introverted, because as he says he doesn't actually have any friends, and that's a choice that he made.

Te auxiliary types would also relate to the productivity aspect, but probably not to the same degree. An INTJ would spend time reflecting on ideas without necessarily tying it to goals, and likewise ISTJ would spend time reflecting on past experiences, things like that. For ISTJ and ESTJ, they both do the Te and Si things, but it's about a) which is more prominent, and b) which is the first thing the person typically considers.


Apologies for not replying to the other post yet.

 

[Pionart]

"ESTP leading is more about "driving" a team through an experience (sports related but not limited to), and ESTP ambitions should be more towards achievement linked on experiences, more about the experience itself rather than a specific and straight goal. I think that ESTP ambitions should be more driven towards having a blast experience in a competitive enviroment."

So with ESTJ, having a blast with the competitiveness is not really about experiencing anything, right?

I don't know how competitive ESTPs are. Yeah they like sports where there is a prominent competitive aspect but they're more the "fun-loving" type. I generally associate competitiveness with Te, though I don't know how accurate that is.

The problem with the term "experience" is that it can mean a lot of things. Every function is experienced in a certain way. It's like the term memory. Every function has its own kind of memory, but the kind of memory typically associate with memory (e.g. recalling past events) is associated with Si. Ni has conceptual memory, where it understands something easily if it has understood it in the past.

So ESTJs would still be experiencing things. The act of working towards a goal is an experience in itself. Se is about sensory experience, so it's about taking in what you're sensing to as full degree as you can.


So yeah, when you say "not really about having just light fun or whatever sensory fun or whatever stereotypes of relaxed SPs bc I'm anything but relaxed with it", that doesn't sound very SP, as you said.

 

[Vendrah]

[MENTION=38618]Bismuth Blitz[/MENTION]

How are Te doms a very ambiverted type? (I saw a post of yours mentioning this)

I disagree.
By stats, the most ambiverted types are ENFP/ISTP, but thats considering data I have not yet shared.
I also asked for [MENTION=8936]highlander[/MENTION] and for the sakinorva guy about data related to that recently.
The most I of cognitive function are, considering the role as dominant and auxiliary, would be Ne. [MENTION=22833]Legion[/MENTION] gets a good graps on the likely reason. ENFP is ambiverted, ENTP has a fame for being ambiverted, while INTP/INFP wons the most monk ones.

However, any type can be ambiverted. These types are just more likely than others to be ambiverted.

I was also thinking about adding adaptability to the first list, but I am not sure how good I am with that compared to others. I tried to add things where I'm definitely good compared to others. But then with decisiveness for example, I didn't realise until paying some more attention that others have problems where it's totally smooth sailing for me with decision-making. I think adaptability is like that too in some situations. I don't even just mean crisis situations though those too. But yeah I didn't add it to the list, because I am not sure, I never checked enough about how others are with it.


Thoughts? Does this list give anything to anyone? [MENTION=32874]Vendrah[/MENTION] [MENTION=22833]Legion[/MENTION] [MENTION=39780]noname3788[/MENTION] [MENTION=40271]mancino[/MENTION]


Also Vendrah -- and mancino, as I ask about ESTJ too --

"ESTP leading is more about "driving" a team through an experience (sports related but not limited to), and ESTP ambitions should be more towards achievement linked on experiences, more about the experience itself rather than a specific and straight goal. I think that ESTP ambitions should be more driven towards having a blast experience in a competitive enviroment."

So with ESTJ, having a blast with the competitiveness is not really about experiencing anything, right?

For me it's like, I like to have that blast in a competitive environment, I like the experience of that specifically, but the experience is just that, not really about having just light fun or whatever sensory fun or whatever stereotypes of relaxed SPs bc I'm anything but relaxed with it.

What is the primary focus for ESTJ when in a competitive environment/why do they like competition/how do they do it?

I already write on ESTJ competition enoughly, I dont have much to add.
I actually even not put enough thought on ISTJ competitiveness. And dont have much idea now that I started thinking about it.Should be a little bit alike ESTJ.

It seems that [MENTION=22833]Legion[/MENTION] also agrees with me so far (not on whys, just on ISTJ). I still hold my ground for ISTJ for the same reasons I said before and have not changed my mind. I and J can be borderline; One borderline is normal, two borderline isnt that much normal but it isnt that unusual. However, the part that you mention adaptability can be a problem on typing.. But not much to the methods we do usually use.

 

[Red Memories]

I can elaborate more but kind of getting Te/Fi from this.

 

[Meowcat]

I can elaborate more but kind of getting Te/Fi from this.

Hey thanks for your input. Please do elaborate more.

 

[Meowcat]

I'm thinking ISTJ, yes. I'm reminded of other people that I've typed as ISTJ on this forum in terms of the writing style. I haven't done the function-order read thing, so ESTJ could still be possible.

Writing style like? I'm interested to see how I come off.

Te doms aren't very extroverted if you use the socialising definition of extroversion.

By the internal/reflective versus external/active definition, Te doms (usually) are clearly extroverted, because they're so focused on getting things done and working towards goals. The extroverts who are hard to pick as being extroverted by that definition are the Ne doms, because it can be hard to understand how ideas can be an external/objective sort of thing, and a lot of the activity happens in a way that seems internal, but ideas/patterns do have an objective character, where an idea can be perceived in its own right, and not in terms of the internal store of the individual.

An example of a Te dom would be Henry Rollins (ENTJ). By the sounds of it, he's a clear, clear extrovert due to his focus on being productive, not wasting time and the likes, however on a social level he might seem introverted, because as he says he doesn't actually have any friends, and that's a choice that he made.

Te auxiliary types would also relate to the productivity aspect, but probably not to the same degree. An INTJ would spend time reflecting on ideas without necessarily tying it to goals, and likewise ISTJ would spend time reflecting on past experiences, things like that. For ISTJ and ESTJ, they both do the Te and Si things, but it's about a) which is more prominent, and b) which is the first thing the person typically considers.


Apologies for not replying to the other post yet.

No worries feel free to take your time.

The Te-dom stuff, and Si-dom stuff hmm, well. I don't spend time reflecting on past experiences, because that drains me. I mean any kind of reflection is draining tbh.

I'm very focused on the goals yah, being on a nice track to some of them, but I don't spend 24/7 on that track, I do other things too, however I do need that track so I know I have some other purpose to go for too. If that made sense .....

And then immediate goals don't need a track. Because you get them done now. I feel more introverted on that track tbh but it's still not about reflecting. I can analyse logical stuff but that's very un-reflective too. I learned to do reflection more in the last couple years. Been hard work for me.

So the track to those goals is more introverted only because I am more patient and analytical of details. I know you gonna scream ISTJ now

But do ISTJs like to go into and stay with their Fi feelz much? Do they stay with them for a while? I'm unable to, and I don't want to either, I don't like emotional states to be around for more than a few seconds or a few minutes for intense shit.

I said I am in a bad place so I feel more negative. But. With the long bad moods I logic them away, basically, so I do not feel those either.

When the emotionz do come up I try, as fast as I can, switch to a decision about the stuff and to make a *very* concrete action plan and then take action.

With the worst ever negative moods/emotions, I'd be fighting them away with the distraction, doing logical tasks, whatever, whatever could use deductive logic instead and just try to figure out why I'd have the bad emotions. While trying to figure it out with strong logical analysis I didn't have to feel it so that was a good trick always.

(You know how some people supposedly count from 0 to 10 to suppress anger. This is prob the same thing. I can't and won't suppress anger effectively tho' lol)

Anyway after that I eventually could not escape the bad emotions and they'd hit me in the head alright. But these bad emotions themselves I would not feel for long (good bc very intense shit). I eventually learned to say I had a bad day with bad mood even if I didn't feel it most of the day it had my logical skills distracted into trying to find a solution.

(Eventually I kinda did start finding solutions yes.)

So that's what I mean by not staying with emotions, feelings for long. Do ISTJs stay longer with it?

And overall. Did this make sense?

I don't know how competitive ESTPs are. Yeah they like sports where there is a prominent competitive aspect but they're more the "fun-loving" type. I generally associate competitiveness with Te, though I don't know how accurate that is.

The problem with the term "experience" is that it can mean a lot of things. Every function is experienced in a certain way. It's like the term memory. Every function has its own kind of memory, but the kind of memory typically associate with memory (e.g. recalling past events) is associated with Si. Ni has conceptual memory, where it understands something easily if it has understood it in the past.

So ESTJs would still be experiencing things. The act of working towards a goal is an experience in itself. Se is about sensory experience, so it's about taking in what you're sensing to as full degree as you can.


So yeah, when you say "not really about having just light fun or whatever sensory fun or whatever stereotypes of relaxed SPs bc I'm anything but relaxed with it", that doesn't sound very SP, as you said.

I did read both ESTP and ESTJ are very competitive. And even ISTJ can be based on some pages sure. I found a page last night where it said ISTJ can use competition to build some people connections too as it's an opportunity to socialise too. I was like huh, interesting, lol. No, really, I liked that. For the ESTP it said they do it - competition - to spend time with already existing people connections. That was basically the difference.

(I can find the page again if anyone's interested let me know)

Anyway ESTP vs ESTJ. I once read ESTP is the drill sergeant when they feel like it and ESTJ just is the drill sergeant by default.

These weren't the words used, but that's basically what it was saying. Like the ESTP would order you to do 50 push-ups if they feel like making you do hard shit (I forget the whole situation), but they will not stay with that one thing for long.

Ofc drill sergeant makes me thinks of guy stuff and I'm female so it's gotta be translated to more female stuff, I'm not a total tomboy or any of that, lol.

Anyway experience... right, ok. I liked this way of putting it, "act of working towards a goal is an experience in itself". Yeah, having a blast with the hard stuff.

Then you say "Se is about sensory experience, so it's about taking in what you're sensing to as full degree as you can."

The thing is if I do go at sensory experience, take it in as much as I can to the full degree, I go hard. I keep in control but I go hard like many people can't. And that is a blast too.

I might've read this about STJs somewhere awhile ago. Work hard, play hard, I like that, lol.

 

[Red Memories]

*puts on typing cap*

WHEW I HAVEN'T DONE THIS IN A WHILE KIND OF EXCITING OK lets analyze!

1. What makes you angry?

Things getting in my way, unfair treatment, personal attacks.

This on its own can be generic but says a couple little things that can be built upon.
"Unfair treatment, personal attacks" reference more toward feelings as feeling is an ethics function. You are upset by other people being mistreated. Either feeling type can be upset by this though.
Things getting in my way can be a two way street as well to thinking or intuition. You feel annoyed by either physical or mental barriers keeping you from something. I would ask for a deeper description of what things you consider to be "in the way" as this would help clarify where this goes.


2. What do you like/dislike most about people?

Like: not sure about a favourite here.

Dislike: too easily judging others, getting emotional and taking every small thing personally

Likes can vary from person to person. I would say try and think of some traits you readily enjoy in the people around you or look for. Like ambition, or compassion.
Your dislike makes me think of a thinking dominant again. Feelers have a tendency to "gut" their feelings about people which to a logical mind may come across as "judgmental" and they can also be seen as too emotional.


3. Do you like animals? Why?

Cats.

I dunno why, just always did as a kid too.

Cute but irrelevant.


4. What do you like most about the favorite people in your life?

Reliability

Things can just be fun with the person.

Why do you value the reliability? This can be a two way street. If you value their reliability as to being there for you, sentimental, etc. it can be an "ethics" thing, but if you value reliability as having reliability helps you obtain things needed to achieve goals and etc. then it leans on Te.


5. What do you like/dislike most about yourself?

I like being myself

If I internalised a negative judgment by someone else about myself, I'd dislike that.

So this goes two ways.
1. This suggests Fi > Fe because Fe cares way too much how others perceive them at times. Fi focused on inner serenity, so letting an outer opinion disrupt your inner peace would appear ridiculous.
2. You are showing thinking over feeling function wise still.


6. Do you care about being fashionable? why/why not?

Yes, bc it just looks good and all that

The lack of a fair reason makes this irrelevant. XD


7. Do you prefer to fit in or stand out?

I don't try to do either

Ethic feelers tend to think about fitting in/not fitting in at times so lower stack idea again.

8. What activities do you enjoy?

Right now idk because I'm in a bad place atm


Fair warning this type assessment may not be as accurate as it could be if you were in a healthier place. <3 wishing you well.

9. What makes you feel secure?

I don't think I ever paid attention to feeling secure. Physically it's easy to sort out. Emotionally when someone was very attentive. I figured out attentiveness isn't enough though. Real warmth is also needed. Not just faking it

The fact you went physical first moreless suggests lower feeling.


10. Do you like being in a relationship? why/why not?

Atm no

I liked to just have fun with people before and then attach meaning to that if I could, previously.

Seems more like a thinkers way.


11. What do you love and why? Could be people, things, places, etc...

Atm just work bc it's not bullshit emotions and judgments of people

Seems you struggle with people attaching their emotions to things too much. Something a thinker will struggle with dealing with a strong feeler on.


12. What do you spend the most time thinking about?

Whatever my main focus is. Now just work I guess

Previously it was people and relationships.

And before that just whatever I worked hard for, coming back to this again.

Hi Te.


13. How much have you changed over the years? Who were you as a child?

I was recently told that I now sound monosyllabic, disengaged, distant. I do remember myself as being more playful, I can still have some moments of that. But like I said, bad place right now. I just like to not change though, I'd like to just be the usual, that is, ready to engage with the world and keep a positive worldview I guess.

As a child: sober realist lol and had bad tantrums sometimes, first trait of myself I learned from others was "forceful", then later "logical".

Te is kind of like a drill sergeant at times. Efficient yet logical both.

At the moment I kind of lean toward some sort of TJ by this. It is hard to tell if you use intuition more or sensing more (Intuition is more future focused vs. Sensing which is more within the past and present moment) but I see Te and Fi in places here so I lean to that being in your function stack.

 

[Meowcat]

I disagree.
By stats, the most ambiverted types are ENFP/ISTP, but thats considering data I have not yet shared.
I also asked for [MENTION=8936]highlander[/MENTION] and for the sakinorva guy about data related to that recently.
The most I of cognitive function are, considering the role as dominant and auxiliary, would be Ne. [MENTION=22833]Legion[/MENTION] gets a good graps on the likely reason. ENFP is ambiverted, ENTP has a fame for being ambiverted, while INTP/INFP wons the most monk ones.

However, any type can be ambiverted. These types are just more likely than others to be ambiverted.

Gotcha there.

I'll highlight some stuff for TLDR lol

I already write on ESTJ competition enoughly, I dont have much to add.
I actually even not put enough thought on ISTJ competitiveness. And dont have much idea now that I started thinking about it.Should be a little bit alike ESTJ.

It seems that [MENTION=22833]Legion[/MENTION] also agrees with me so far (not on whys, just on ISTJ). I still hold my ground for ISTJ for the same reasons I said before and have not changed my mind. I and J can be borderline; One borderline is normal, two borderline isnt that much normal but it isnt that unusual. However, the part that you mention adaptability can be a problem on typing.. But not much to the methods we do usually use.

Funnily enough I thought you said ESTJ but I went back and I see ISTJ, lol. Alright, so it's because my seeming socially introverted? And even though I don't have an ability to stay with an internal emotion long it would fit ISTJ alright in your view?

As for the adaptability. If I really wanted to, I could still relocate to another country pretty fast even tho' I'm trying to settle down in a nice area atm. Uh, I haven't fully settled with my career direction yet either. I do feel I am getting more stereotypical ISTJ bc I started enjoying the idea of working at the same career forever to get better and better that way (compared to others too re: competitiveness), and get really good in that way. I don't know if that's type or something else tho' that I didn't settle before. It does make me feel groundless sometimes but then I ignore that feeling. If I'm an ISTJ, then I've really learned to rely on my adaptiveness and ignore the slight stress about not always being on a nice neat track forward. Thing is I don't think I had to learn the adaptiveness. What I'm having to learn more is more patience, settle down more in one final direction, .... Like have goals that I achieve only in decades or something... I've achieved goals before that do take many years or even decades for many people and I achieved them in a couple years here and there, but yeah, this is a complex topic now. Achievement is one of my most important values as far as I'm even able to identify definite values for myself. I'm not good at that sortof thing, but I'm practicing to remember what my fundamental values are, as far as I've figured them out I mean.

Please don't get me wrong. I did always have a patient side too, that's how I achieved the goals requiring years of work at it, but uh...not decades long goals yet. No, but I'm trying to get there lately maybe.

Actually is that Fi, too. Again I feel pretty low Fi for standard ISTJ. Heh. High on adaptiveness, impatience, those achievements&goals, low on tuning into definite values and patience settling down for the same direction for decades. I mean high and low compared to standard ISTJ. Those things make me feel really un-ISTJ. I'm not saying I can't be ISTJ but I'm trying to make sense of it all still.

Here's the other thing, I keep reading Ne inferior means you get a host of imagined bad possibilities under stress. Nope not me. I never get a host of possibilities, my mind just does not... does not go that way. I can do a tiny little "lateral thinking" to think up extra options for concrete action when I very much WANT something, where I wouldn't have thought of the options by default. They are all options directly for taking concrete action. Not bad (or good) possibitilies. Anyway yeah that's as far as the extent of "lateral thinking" goes for me. So no I don't have a host of bad ideas/possibilities/catastrophes under stress.

Under very severe stress I did have an image of a bad outcome but it was just one bad direction. Horribly bad anyhow', I was fascinated watching that it was leading forward straight ahead to a more and more horrible and catastrophic end, lol. A very straight line there, mind you. It was just funny how it suddenly got worse and worse lololol. So I applied cognitive behavioural therapy principles Iguess, because I figured my worldview couldn't have changed that suddenly, it must be a subjective change, so I needed to find positive facts. I did and a minute later I was planning my concrete actions to get out of the dire seeming situation. And I did. Half an hour later I was executing the plan already.

So that's me and my decisiveness Iguess

Afaik standard ISTJ is less decisive than me, tho I'm only this strongly decisive and impatient 50% of the time. The other 50% I'm chill and hanging back more patiently. Or just being on that track for the goals (tho' not the several decade long ones yet).

But I agree I'm socially introverted. More aloof than not. I get "gregarious" too but that's sorta for shorter times. So that's why I'm willing to consider ISTJ yeah.

If you have any thoughts on this, feel free to say.

 

[Meowcat]

*puts on typing cap*

WHEW I HAVEN'T DONE THIS IN A WHILE KIND OF EXCITING OK lets analyze!

Hey hey thanks for your analysis I had a more recent questionnaire too if you are curious. (Don't have to do it too, but just incase. It's a tiny bit more wordy than this very short one was, it's here anyhow, post #37.)

OK, I'll respond to your comments below .

1. What makes you angry?

Things getting in my way, unfair treatment, personal attacks.

This on its own can be generic but says a couple little things that can be built upon.
"Unfair treatment, personal attacks" reference more toward feelings as feeling is an ethics function. You are upset by other people being mistreated. Either feeling type can be upset by this though.
Things getting in my way can be a two way street as well to thinking or intuition. You feel annoyed by either physical or mental barriers keeping you from something. I would ask for a deeper description of what things you consider to be "in the way" as this would help clarify where this goes.

Yeah I care about fair & good vs unfair & shit treatment. Either bad treatment of me or of other people, yes.

I get annoyed at obstacles in my way bc I want to remove them Iguess lol. I don't have a high frustration tolerance tbh so I go at it hard. It could be physical, could be anything.

Mainly though it's just something I want to get done, and something just plain gets in the way. Some thing or someone else, lol.

Oh as for personal attacks. I really don't tolerate that sort of thing in two circumstances: 1) in an argument where logical rules gotta apply. 2) Personal relationships.

2. What do you like/dislike most about people?

Like: not sure about a favourite here.

Dislike: too easily judging others, getting emotional and taking every small thing personally

Likes can vary from person to person. I would say try and think of some traits you readily enjoy in the people around you or look for. Like ambition, or compassion.
Your dislike makes me think of a thinking dominant again. Feelers have a tendency to "gut" their feelings about people which to a logical mind may come across as "judgmental" and they can also be seen as too emotional.

Yeah I don't do those types of gut feelings.

Enjoyable traits: uh attentiveness maybe. Being philosophical almost, not overdoing it tho

4. What do you like most about the favorite people in your life?

Reliability

Things can just be fun with the person.

Why do you value the reliability? This can be a two way street. If you value their reliability as to being there for you, sentimental, etc. it can be an "ethics" thing, but if you value reliability as having reliability helps you obtain things needed to achieve goals and etc. then it leans on Te.

NOT the latter lol. I will gladly help with that, but I don't need others do that for me. I can do that part alone.

So reliability, it's plain about the relationship itself. They won't take advantage of you bc they are more reliable than that.

5. What do you like/dislike most about yourself?

I like being myself

If I internalised a negative judgment by someone else about myself, I'd dislike that.

So this goes two ways.
1. This suggests Fi > Fe because Fe cares way too much how others perceive them at times. Fi focused on inner serenity, so letting an outer opinion disrupt your inner peace would appear ridiculous.
2. You are showing thinking over feeling function wise still.

Fact is, I "tried out" (not intentionally) the Fe thingy for a short time as you describe it here. It just drove me too mad (recently actually). I mean I'm in the process of killin' all that right now but yeah

So I just plain don't get anything out of caring how I'm perceived in that Fe or whatever way. Too unrewarding.

6. Do you care about being fashionable? why/why not?

Yes, bc it just looks good and all that

The lack of a fair reason makes this irrelevant. XD

How's that not a fair reason

8. What activities do you enjoy?

Right now idk because I'm in a bad place atm


Fair warning this type assessment may not be as accurate as it could be if you were in a healthier place. <3 wishing you well.

Thanks, nice of you.

9. What makes you feel secure?

I don't think I ever paid attention to feeling secure. Physically it's easy to sort out. Emotionally when someone was very attentive. I figured out attentiveness isn't enough though. Real warmth is also needed. Not just faking it

The fact you went physical first moreless suggests lower feeling.

I will admit, here, all anonymously af, yeah, I don't ever really feel emotionally secure, lol. It's very rare for a short time maybe but it's ok bc I just don't focus on it.

10. Do you like being in a relationship? why/why not?

Atm no

I liked to just have fun with people before and then attach meaning to that if I could, previously.

Seems more like a thinkers way.

I think we are not going to argue there.

11. What do you love and why? Could be people, things, places, etc...

Atm just work bc it's not bullshit emotions and judgments of people

Seems you struggle with people attaching their emotions to things too much. Something a thinker will struggle with dealing with a strong feeler on.

Yes, when it gets really really in the way. Way worse than the impersonal obstacles, lol

12. What do you spend the most time thinking about?

Whatever my main focus is. Now just work I guess

Previously it was people and relationships.

And before that just whatever I worked hard for, coming back to this again.

Hi Te.

Actually yeah my main focus is achievements, challenges

13. How much have you changed over the years? Who were you as a child?

I was recently told that I now sound monosyllabic, disengaged, distant. I do remember myself as being more playful, I can still have some moments of that. But like I said, bad place right now. I just like to not change though, I'd like to just be the usual, that is, ready to engage with the world and keep a positive worldview I guess.

As a child: sober realist lol and had bad tantrums sometimes, first trait of myself I learned from others was "forceful", then later "logical".

Te is kind of like a drill sergeant at times. Efficient yet logical both.

At the moment I kind of lean toward some sort of TJ by this. It is hard to tell if you use intuition more or sensing more (Intuition is more future focused vs. Sensing which is more within the past and present moment) but I see Te and Fi in places here so I lean to that being in your function stack.

I don't have a clear image of female drill sergeant atm. But looking into that.

 

[Red Memories]

the "drill sergeant" analogy of Te is about the army mentality.

Organized. Efficient. Objective (keeps emotions out of decisions and etc as it muddies the waters). Goal-oriented. Low tolerance for ineptitude and basic stupidity or overreactions. Thicker skin. A Te type may also try to make the things around them more efficient and objective as well and get frustrated if someone's lack of ability to do that holds something back.

 

[Meowcat]

the "drill sergeant" analogy of Te is about the army mentality.

Organized. Efficient. Objective (keeps emotions out of decisions and etc as it muddies the waters). Goal-oriented. Low tolerance for ineptitude and basic stupidity or overreactions. Thicker skin. A Te type may also try to make the things around them more efficient and objective as well and get frustrated if someone's lack of ability to do that holds something back.

Well just for the heck of it I googled army mindset

and I get "A state of mind achieved after completing intensive training, the military mindset can be colloquially summarized in the following mental attributes -

1. A mindset with discipline

2. A mindset with courage

3. A mindset with purpose"

I definitely like that sortof stuff. Even tho I was never in the military.

***

Anyway about the description you gave here, yeah I relate to some of this.

I especially try to keep emotions out of decisions in recent years. I don't have a problem with "overreactions" if you mean people being emotional (as long as it's not a personal attack and judgments of me), though unless the person is just making themselves look totally pathetic.

I don't completely relate to: "get frustrated if someone's lack of ability to do that holds something back"

Let me explain. It does hurt my eyes if someone is doing things in a pretty crappy way, but I know not to be rude and I won't interfere, unless it's my business as to what they are doing. So I just do not look at the crappy ways of doing things if I can help it, lol. Or unless they are really really fucking up things for themselves and can't get out of it and then I step in and help.

So I would say I'm not as rude as "Low tolerance for ineptitude and basic stupidity". I had a boyfriend who was totally like that though. I found it frankly very rude. I get blunt but that...that's extra rude, the stuff he'd do. Idk if guy vs girl thing on top of Te.

And yeah sure I get irritated if it's like someone's too slow and gets in my way but I don't judge them, I just want to sort out the issue here/now and then I'll forget about it, I'm past it. No lasting judgment or even fleeting like my boyfriend would do it, "he's a moron" etc. (This is assuming they do not have a serious competence issue ofc, just random crap)

I make things for others more efficient if I'm involved enough. I'm good at giving steps to others for doing things, I wrote a complete instruction manual for something once that was really actually very long, lol. I wrote it for others actually, I would never have bothered with writing it just for myself. But it ended up being useful for myself too, i.e this way I wouldn't have a problem with forgetting more obscure aspects, if I had to use those features later, I could quickly look them up in this manual .

I'm also especially good at helping find the right decision though if the person is really very scatter-brained emotional then it definitely requires patience. I do have the patience tho' for some reason. But then sometimes I do get to wish that they'd allow me to decide for them or that it wouldn't be too rude that I'd take over and decide for them. In emergency enough situations I will do that tho' without hesitation.

The rest fits okay yeah, I'm organised with some things (not with everything), objectivity as I said above and ofc the goals, thick enough skin by default.

All in all I would say I get more frustrated at some unexpected obstacles or if they don't behave as I expect them to, but I do know how to handle that and get over the anger+frustration, I just act it out quick and go on more "zen" methodical afterwards.

Because yeah for some reason I forget to be fully methodical right away. Which is also where I do get to doubt ISTJ. I feel more standard ISTJ-like after I removed the anger/frustration. Like you know, calm, steady, logical methodical 1000%

 

[Meowcat]

I reread [MENTION=32874]Vendrah[/MENTION] 's previous nice long analysis a bit. Again Vendrah I do want to say that was a great detailed analysis.

By competitiveness I don't mean the same as ambitiousness but there's def overlap, so that's interesting too. So I reread it yeah, processing more than the first time (that's how these things work for me usually, idk if that's type).


This is a good bottomline, where this was summed up as "In terms ENTJ/ESTP or rather EXTJ/ESTP ambitions, EXTJ "wants the trophie" to achieve some sort of societal recognition, more or less connected to some sort of status or number, and this societal recognition should be based on a recognized external judgement, while the ESTP should want to achieve for the sake of experience."

& "ESTJ is more or less purely described in terms of having a social prestige in some form, and that social prestige is connected to the goal."


If anyone has any example for what one can achieve for the sake of experience I'd like to hear about that. Because I still don't understand how that works. Achievement to me is definitely a social thing and it can be numbers too loool, yeah, I'm just not really dark or spreading the culture zealously or be that extremely very businesslike businesswoman in a business school blah blah blah. That part is overkill for me. But the achievement part hell yeah that's me.


And then: "However, when Jung follows he gives a completely different approach to Te and says about it scientifical and data aspects rather then social prestige, however in my own opinion Te still holds for high social prestige because its a judgy function oriented by the object/data. In that way, the ambitions of Te are linked and connected to social prestige (while for ESTP that should be more or less ignored), and one of the Te ambitions is connected into having some sort of general society recognition, either in form of money or some sort of recognized achievement."

Well, yeah oriented externally, that works for me for my uh, competitiveness and then sometimes ambition too (ambition to me is more grandiose than competitiveness but I like both). I relate to the science/data orientation thingy too.


"I think that because of Se, ESTP leading is more about "driving" a team through an experience (sports related but not limited to), and ESTP ambitions should be more towards achievement linked on experiences, more about the experience itself rather than a specific and straight goal. I think that ESTP ambitions should be more driven towards having a blast experience in a competitive enviroment."

And then here, well alright so I just don't really live for the pure experience, this is established alright. I frankly almost look down on people who just hang around all day like that for just the "experience" without any yeah, any goals and achievements heh. But. I still don't understand the "achievement linked on experiences" or "having a blast experience in a competitive environment" thing. What would the Se focus on in a sports race for example? Te would focus on getting the trophy, getting on podium, first place, or whatever award and other connected social prestige is there to get, all that right? And Se? What experiences are focused on, for example? The sun, the burning muscles, fucking around maybe with people, is that all?




***

Something else. How much Fi (or Fe or whatever feelz) I really have. I just tried to talk with someone about some emotional experience, I've been told enough psychology stuff by now that I wanted to try that more. But. I just couldn't really give them anything coherent. I talked randomly about details that came up.

But what's even worse is, I suspect I have so many feelings, emotions that just can't come up, can't come out to the surface (let alone expressed, shared, whatever, idk), because my logic just plain disagrees with the "thoughts" linked to those feelz. This is not always a problem lol, but then sometimes it interferes with processing of (emotionally) heavy experiences.

I always read that ISTJs are comfortable with their private feelings and while there are maybe a few I have been okay with, I just in general really am not... Does ISTJ "kick out" this many feelz from even appearing internally on the surface, bc logic disagrees? They stay in the depths I guess, then sometimes want to come up but can't because my logic dictates differently. And again, it does make emotional processing really complex for me compared to some other people.

It works eventually, the processing, but it's really strange in that I maybe get one glimpse of a flash of "image"/feeling state, and it's gone. I can read a lot from it now sure, I couldn't read too much from it before, all the psychology learning though has helped.

Also I really don't feel okay with feeling an emotion/feeling for longer than a few seconds or minutes. Hours sounds exhausting, I tried 1.5 hours once using a technique, it was such a hard workout and then just gave me muscle issues the next day (I don't want to assume it was just a coincidence).

Another thing I am thinking of. I've had this issue where I do come off cold and I just seem to be telling others what to do (tbh not necessarily actually the case), and have wasted a lot of energy on people who I didn't even really care about, I just lost all sense of prioritising. Like this (older post of mine): "At my worst ever, I did stop being able to prioritise the causes/people. It felt really "un-rewarding" too to be like that. I got no enjoyment from the interactions even where I usually do get some. I don't understand why I was like that. I hope I never get to waste time like that again. Plus it really backfired on me. Also yeah, more dark shit, if I get into doing all this support thingy a lot, I don't think it ever ended all that well eventually. Especially in that case where I didn't even prioritise. Felt shallow, disconnected and it was not rewarding and was totally pointless eventually but I just didn't stop until it was too much of a disaster eventually. :???: I didn't feel I was being truly myself anymore."

(This was me commenting on an inferior Fi description.)

I felt extra cold basically at that point even. After noticing this was going on. But by default either I just do not "own" my feelz AT ALL, I thought ISTJ has no problem doing that to some extent?

 

[Pionart]

Writing style like? I'm interested to see how I come off.

The interactions we've been having in this thread remind me of another member who was also wondering about their type, and I thought they were an ISTJ. I don't remember their username; I think they were also into fitness.

No worries feel free to take your time.

The Te-dom stuff, and Si-dom stuff hmm, well. I don't spend time reflecting on past experiences, because that drains me. I mean any kind of reflection is draining tbh.

I'm very focused on the goals yah, being on a nice track to some of them, but I don't spend 24/7 on that track, I do other things too, however I do need that track so I know I have some other purpose to go for too. If that made sense .....

Well yeah, even if staying on track towards goals is your primary attitude, there is also the influence of the other cognitive functions. So there will be similarity between two different people of different types in terms of what they do, but differing amounts of each particular activity/state of mind, and different importance given to it.

And then immediate goals don't need a track. Because you get them done now. I feel more introverted on that track tbh but it's still not about reflecting. I can analyse logical stuff but that's very un-reflective too. I learned to do reflection more in the last couple years. Been hard work for me.

So the track to those goals is more introverted only because I am more patient and analytical of details. I know you gonna scream ISTJ now

Reflection might not be the best term for it, because that might be more associated with Fi. But do you often have memories, or perhaps specific facts that you've learned, coming to your mind?

But do ISTJs like to go into and stay with their Fi feelz much? Do they stay with them for a while? I'm unable to, and I don't want to either, I don't like emotional states to be around for more than a few seconds or a few minutes for intense shit.

I said I am in a bad place so I feel more negative. But. With the long bad moods I logic them away, basically, so I do not feel those either.

When the emotionz do come up I try, as fast as I can, switch to a decision about the stuff and to make a *very* concrete action plan and then take action.

With the worst ever negative moods/emotions, I'd be fighting them away with the distraction, doing logical tasks, whatever, whatever could use deductive logic instead and just try to figure out why I'd have the bad emotions. While trying to figure it out with strong logical analysis I didn't have to feel it so that was a good trick always.

(You know how some people supposedly count from 0 to 10 to suppress anger. This is prob the same thing. I can't and won't suppress anger effectively tho' lol)

Anyway after that I eventually could not escape the bad emotions and they'd hit me in the head alright. But these bad emotions themselves I would not feel for long (good bc very intense shit). I eventually learned to say I had a bad day with bad mood even if I didn't feel it most of the day it had my logical skills distracted into trying to find a solution.

(Eventually I kinda did start finding solutions yes.)

So that's what I mean by not staying with emotions, feelings for long. Do ISTJs stay longer with it?

And overall. Did this make sense?

The amount of Fi that an ISTJ uses differs considerably from one ISTJ to the next.

To draw a parallel, I am an INFJ with a lot of Ti; I even majored in mathematics. But another INFJ may have an aversion to logic and try to avoid it.

What you're describing seems to be using Te to combat the negativity of Fi. That sounds like a healthy way to do things assuming that you're an ISTJ, because Te use will give you energy, but Fi will drain it. Of course, Fi shouldn't be ignored completely, it has its place in the overall functioning of things, e.g. it can pull you back if you're attempting to make a move forward which will have negative consequences to the harmony which is keeping everything in balance.

The parallel for me as an INFJ is that socially oriented activities can keep me out of the flatness of excessive Ti use, but the Ti will pull the Fe back when the social move is in contradiction to logical principles, e.g. giving someone advice which is logically unsound.

(I'm using parallels to INFJ a lot because I understand that type a lot better than ISTJ, of course, and while the situational analysis of Ti+Se might be more what you're looking for, there's only so much of that that I can do)

I did read both ESTP and ESTJ are very competitive. And even ISTJ can be based on some pages sure. I found a page last night where it said ISTJ can use competition to build some people connections too as it's an opportunity to socialise too. I was like huh, interesting, lol. No, really, I liked that. For the ESTP it said they do it - competition - to spend time with already existing people connections. That was basically the difference.

(I can find the page again if anyone's interested let me know)

In terms of the theory, I'm not sure what the basis of that observation would be. If anything I would expect the opposite, because Fi is more geared towards deeper connections, and Fe has more of a tendency to expand its circle.

Anyway ESTP vs ESTJ. I once read ESTP is the drill sergeant when they feel like it and ESTJ just is the drill sergeant by default.

These weren't the words used, but that's basically what it was saying. Like the ESTP would order you to do 50 push-ups if they feel like making you do hard shit (I forget the whole situation), but they will not stay with that one thing for long.

Ofc drill sergeant makes me thinks of guy stuff and I'm female so it's gotta be translated to more female stuff, I'm not a total tomboy or any of that, lol.

I suppose that Fe has more of a character-forming nature to it, sort of like it's acting, so I guess that makes sense.

From what I hear, STJs are big in the military. The hierarchical social structure, and emphasis on discipline in a physical sense would be appealing.

Anyway experience... right, ok. I liked this way of putting it, "act of working towards a goal is an experience in itself". Yeah, having a blast with the hard stuff.

Then you say "Se is about sensory experience, so it's about taking in what you're sensing to as full degree as you can."

The thing is if I do go at sensory experience, take it in as much as I can to the full degree, I go hard. I keep in control but I go hard like many people can't. And that is a blast too.

I might've read this about STJs somewhere awhile ago. Work hard, play hard, I like that, lol.

Hmm, you might be describing Se and Ti there. Those are the 5th and 6th functions for ISTJ, and those are energising functions, but they can later in the order of considerations. So they can be like rewards for hard work.

To draw another parallel (I don't know how to describe it for ISTJ), for INFJ it's like... we start with a vision of how things will be, and then we turn that vision into reality, and that can be hard to do. But once it's there, in concrete form, it becomes something you can play with, and connect up with different things that are out there.

So ISTJ would start with something definite, then eventually make it into something abstract, which would be difficult, but then they find joy from the concrete things that come from it.

 

[Pionart]

Hmm but how does this differ from Se? Both Si and Se are in the present btw, yeah?

Well... every function is "in the present" in the obvious sense that we exist in the present, so that's when we're using it. Se is the "most" in the present, because it doesn't bring much else into the equation when it's dealing with something (however it's not always completely in the present, because it can inwardly relive experiences). Si, then, is less in the present because it tends to bring past associations into the situation, e.g. remembering that an item is fragile so has to be handled carefully, or remember when you bought that item.

An example of when I personally use Si a lot is when I walk up/down the stairs. I have poor balance, so I pay careful attention to what I'm doing just in case something unexpected happens and I fall. I guess you could say I am very present at that time, because what I'm doing is paying careful attention, but I am paying careful attention in response to a mental note I have made for myself.

Anyway to be clear I look at the details to figure out how it works to be able to use it, like I said I get more analytical and I try to do it methodically if I remember to be methodical. To avoid the frustration/anger that otherwise will come up if I run into an obstacle (if it's not easy to figure out the thing right away). Tbh it happens too easily that I first get pissed and act it out a bit then I calm down and then I'm finally methodical. Instead of remembering right away that that would help, lol. But when I'm impatient it's hard to remember to be methodical until I got rid of the anger enough Iguess.

Anger can occur when we get thrown into our weaker functions. So perhaps you are being thrown into Ne because something unexpected is happening and you have to brainstorm, so what you're doing is returning to your stronger side.

So. Those are the details I internalise, that relate to how the thing works. And the steps that I figure out to be able to use the thing. Like there I do try to be methodical at least a little. Easier to remember to be methodical at that point, comes way more easily to me.

And of course after I figured out the thing, I won't need to look at it as closely as the first time, that seems logical to me that I don't have to explore again as if I had never seen it before, seems like a basic thing for anyone, learning and remembering what you learned is basic I mean. The details I bring to mind are the above ones, how it works, what steps to do to deal with the thing so that it works predictably. Yes the details of course include how the thing looks but it's analytical logical too to be able to do the steps that I figured out.

The emphasis on "steps", "methodical" does sound rather Te.

And yes, all functions learn from the past. Si just tends to be more explicit in bringing those past instances to mind.

My philosophy of the world as it is would be, there is no solipsism...you definitely die if you jump off that cliff. There actually exist things outside you and you do have to take them into account. And tbh that's good.

My philosophy of myself in the world is that I'm this active person interacting with the world, and there is an abundance and variety of things to have/do things with, and overcoming/conquering complex hard challenges.

My philosophy of society in the world is that it exists with all the social expectations and rules and norms having adapted to the environment and that it's good to have society for us/humanity to be able to keep moving forward.

These are the things I could think of when you mentioned overall philosophies about the world. It's definitely fact based but the second one has some inspiration too about the challenges part and the moving forward part in the third one.

What I see in that is a unification of your conscious and unconscious functions. So there are various things in there that can be tied to different functions, but the way it all ties together seems to reflect how those functions fit into your overall worldview.

An example is that you associate social expectations, rules etc. with "moving forward". Fe is the 7th function for ISTJ, and the 7th and 8th functions do often fit into the overall story in terms of the notion of moving foward. It's relating to how when we are at our best, we're able to wield all 8 of our functions in an effective manner. They all fit together holistically.

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Also what I notice about your philosophy is that it concerns the experience of actually being in the world. By contrast, my own philosophy deals largely with notions like free will, right/wrong, true/false, and I view these as existing "beyond" this world, and essentially being the prerequisites for it to exist. It's not until the foundation of universal ideas is laid that the reality of being is considered.