[MENTION=32874]Vendrah[/MENTION] you wrote this in another type thread to someone else: "When you talk about ambitions, you really give a ENTJ type 8 vibe. I dont know if big ambitions is really an SP things unless ESTP."
What is ENTJ vs ESTP ambition like in your opinion, and why or how is the ESTP the only SP that can have big ambition? What kind of big ambitions?
Also, how would you see ESTJ in terms of ambition?
Thanks for any response.
Problem is, I already more or less forgot why I said that, but I do have some idea. Also, theres no direct stats for ambition in MBTI, most of it is my deduction based on other related information.
As I said somewhere else, I have trouble confusing 8 and 3 types, but, well, about SPs...
ISFPs are the less type likely to lead and have ambitions, thats a deduction from truity:
ISFPs(truity):
"In college, likely to report low levels of assertiveness"
"Underrepresented among MBA students and small business owners"
Assertiveness in big 5 refers to wanting to lead a group, measures the interest in leading. ISFP has the lowest level of all types into that. I already read somewhere that ISFP is the most likely type to be a follower rather than a leader.
The thing for ESFP and ISTP changes a little bit although. MBTI statistics are mostly smoothy... Meaning that for most stats and characteristic you find in one type is true/close to at least one of possible cousins.
In enneagram table...
I may have some hard time arguing this, but I dont think that any MBTI type which distribuition in types 3 or 8 are very low should not be ambitious. By that, I would say that ESFP are rarely ambitious although ESFP people usually tends to hang out with a lot of other extraverts which demands them to care about their popularity, however that doesnt make themselves ambitious.
ISTP is kind of different, I cant really create a strong reasoning for why ISTP is not much ambitious at all, but I do think it is.
The picture for ESTP is really different. First, ESTP has lots of 3s and 8s in enneagram. Also, truity again on ESTP:
"One of four types reporting highest levels of assertiveness in college"
In other words, in terms of assertiveness, ESTP/ISFP are kind of opposites. ESTP tends to lead, ISFPs tends to follow. Thats why I said that big ambitions is not a SP thing unless ESTP (based on that data).
How different is the ambitions of an ESTP, ENTJ and ESTJ, and what kind of ambitions, is kind of a hard question to give a straight answer. There arent much stats on that, so I stick a lot to concepts, indirect stats and my own personal opinion.
ESTP ambitions should heavily rely on Se. Despite truity saying the opposite, ESTP is not considered one of the type to significantly open business (and even less for studying/being in business courses). The four types that significantly open business and join business courses are ENTJ, ESTJ, ISTJ and ENTP (it varies a little in some countries). ESTP kind of leading is not that much linked to business. Using stereotypes, i think its more related to sports, but not at all limited to that (perhaps ESTP could be the most common soccer captain type, I never read anything about that so its pure speculation of my own). I think that because of Se, ESTP leading is more about "driving" a team through an experience (sports related but not limited to), and ESTP ambitions should be more towards achievement linked on experiences, more about the experience itself rather than a specific and straight goal. I think that ESTP ambitions should be more driven towards having a blast experience in a competitive enviroment.
ENTJ and ESTJ are another different thing. These two are very similar in terms of ambitions in my opinion. First, both enterprenurs, both are very found in business courses and tends to get higher qualifications for business. Second, both Te and Fe are a lot oriented to and through social prestige (I have never find anything related on stats of that), I think of that because of original Jungs definition. Jungs description of a pure Fe type (Fe archetype) is a woman picking husbands and "loving" more their husbands based on their achievements. Jung on Fe and pure Fe-dom type:
"Feeling in the extraverted attitude is orientated by objective data, i.e. the object is the indispensable determinant of the kind of feeling."
" The personality appears to be adjusted in relation to objective conditions. Her feelings correspond with objective situations and general values. Nowhere is this more clearly revealed than in the so-called 'love-choice'; the 'suitable' man is loved, not another one; he is suitable not so much because he fully accords with the fundamental character of the woman -- as a rule she is quite uninformed about this -- but because [p. 449] he meticulously corresponds in standing, age, capacity, height, and family respectability with every reasonable requirement."
Despite Jung not mentioning that behaviour on Te, Te should be a lot prone to that as well, the only difference is that it is no longer using feelings, but rather thinking. Social prestige in Jung conception, at least on my interpretation, involves Te and Fe, or basically an extraverted-judging cognitive function (the extraverted Judging cognitive functions are Te and Fe). Here are some Te parts that suggests that as well:
"As a result of the general attitude of extraversion, thinking is orientated by the object and objective data."
However, when Jung follows he gives a completely different approach to Te and says about it scientifical and data aspects rather then social prestige, however in my own opinion Te still holds for high social prestige because its a judgy function oriented by the object/data. In that way, the ambitions of Te are linked and connected to social prestige (while for ESTP that should be more or less ignored), and one of the Te ambitions is connected into having some sort of general society recognition, either in form of money or some sort of recognized achievement. Thats either for ESTJ and ENTJ. What differentiates on that is that ESTJ is more connected to Jung original Te than ENTJ, so ESTJ is more or less purely described in terms of having a social prestige in some form, and that social prestige is connected to the goal. ENTJ is a little bit different although. Because of N function and partially because of Ni, the ENTJ ambitions might derail a little bit from social prestige.
In terms ENTJ/ESTP or rather EXTJ/ESTP ambitions, EXTJ "wants the trophie" to achieve some sort of societal recognition, more or less connected to some sort of status or number, and this societal recognition should be based on a recognized external judgement, while the ESTP should want to achieve for the sake of experience.
However, keep in my mind that five things...
First, Im not considering things like "my big ambition is to have a lot of love", or things like that, Im seeing ambitions in a different lens than that.
Second, there is always the important PS about how MBTI is constructed: Any type can have big ambitions, however in some types ambitions are common or very common and for other types they are uncommon and unlikely.
Third, Fe/Te are a lot prone to trends on the society, and that can be either quite darky or quite brighty (in my own country it is more darky than brighty). Te/Fe criterias of what is sucess/failure is based on what criterias are recognized by society, so if in the society being a hero is the prestigious thing, Te/Fe doms (and partially the auxs) will look for being the best hero in country or town, absorbing all heroic characteristics they can develop. Or the Te/Fe doms (and partially the auxs) can be in Hitler´s Nazi society and works toward the superior race and dedicating themselves into purifing the society from those impure jews, and things can get extremely dark on that. It pretty much depends on what society they are into (Fi and Ti, in other instance, operates more internal and are a lot more independent on the context and more dependent on the person psyche, I think...), and Te/Fe people are good into spreading the culture goods and bads.
Fourth, EXTJs and ExFJs are not entirely depending on that. Thats because pure Fe or pure Te types are quite rare and unrealistic, realistically other cognitive functions, sometimes even 3 or 4, have influences on that. I defend the idea that the function stacks are a lot personal, and because the preferences of each person is more or less unique (although they must obey to relations in order to be associated with a type) (there is also the enneagram role on that), meaning that the persons ambitions can have some variety and not all ESTJs, for example, have equal ambitions, but most of their ambitions should be similar.
And fifth, I dont like much these ambitions because I had bad experiences of other ambitions really playing a role into ruining my own life. Notice that objective social prestige requires that a small group of individuals needing to have significantly more of objective-something in "detriment" of the majority not having much, or in other lens, in order to have winners losers are requires (because the word "winner" has no meaning in the absent of the word "loser"). That objective-something in our society is usually, but in no way limited to, money, meaning that some of these ambitionary people can use other people to their ambitions and they need to not share their ambitions (because if the gains are way too spread, the social recognition reduces), although in statistics what I said in this phrase is not valid for FJ (but it is for TJ). And FJ doesnt equal Fe and TJ doesnt equal Fe, but stats for cognitive functions are near zero so sometimes we need to do the simplification of FJ=Fe and TJ=Te, but these arent equal (they are more or less equal). And yeah, I do have some bad experiences on that, and not having ambitions for me is not a negative trait, and people with too much ambitions make me very caution.
One more thing, it seems you want to be typed now? This topic didnt started with that... I havent read that much these last pages.
If you are considering EXTJ for you, have in mind that, if you are really putting a lot of or some sort of Fi-stuff on a diary and journaling it, that means that Fi should not be in the end of the cognitive function stack, meaning that EXTJ is unlikely for you (although ESTJ and ENTJ with significant Fi in the middle of the stack is possible, but quite unlikely, and most descriptions will describe these types as "Fi-tards").