Fe and the wall?

[Dreamer]

This is just an observation I've had with three Fe doms in my sphere of acquaintances, two ENFJ and one ESFJ, but when I talk to them, I swear, what I get or feel from them is nothing of themselves, as if there is this wall up that prevents me seeing the real them. I don't believe they are Sp doms or anything as they are all very warm and welcoming, but I definitely feel this supposed barrier that no others I know seem to possess. It sometimes feels like I am talking to a wall, where my voice echoes and reverberates. What I hear back is different and not just a mirrored projection, but it's altered. This bounce-back affect is, what I believe, is the cause of me feeling like there is this wall between me and getting to know who they really are.

This is just an observation with some theorizing here, but if anyone can add to this or give their feedback, that'd be awesome. Is Fe like this? Is this a trait of Fe??

 

[Agent Washington]

This is just an observation I've had with three Fe doms in my sphere of acquaintances, two ENFJ and one ESFJ, but when I talk to them, I swear, what I get or feel from them is nothing of themselves, as if there is this wall up that prevents me seeing the real them. I don't believe they are Sp doms or anything as they are all very warm and welcoming, but I definitely feel this supposed barrier that no others I know seem to possess. It sometimes feels like I am talking to a wall, where my voice echoes and reverberates. What I hear back is different and not just a mirrored projection, but it's altered. This bounce-back affect is, what I believe, is the cause of me feeling like there is this wall between me and getting to know who they really are.

This is just an observation with some theorizing here, but if anyone can add to this or give their feedback, that'd be awesome. Is Fe like this? Is this a trait of Fe??

I feel that way about Fe users, but hm. IDK
On one hand, it feels really nice and validating, but on the other it really does make me question whether there was really any meaningful interaction, in that the way these present themselves often feel like a script.

*note: not applicable to some nice Fe users that actually do rephrase things so that i know they internalised what was said.

 

[Lord Lavender]

Hmmm as a Fe user speaking here we do put up barriers but its not on purpose as its a trait of Fe to be socially acceptable and that means to some extent not being 100% true. Fe you can think of as a filter for their behavior and actions so that for a Fe dom its first nature to do that thing you describe above.

A good way to get a Fe user to open up is to reassure them they will not be judged for not following Fe codes which ic a hard nut to crack. There may be other factors at play in those Fe dom (They very well could be Sp doms or image heavy types so they may be a heavy 2, 3 or 4 meaing that they will act in a way they want to bee seen as). I think with the ESFJs a good way to get them to open up is to appeal to their Si and Ne with your own on a note. BTW in our convos youve hit a Fe wall with me at times as hmm when you dig me I do close off (Im sorry btw for that). Its that in my head I am thinking about the social codes of expressing said emotion or thought.

 

[magpie]

I have difficulty irl with strong Fe users, usually ExFJs. It feels like their expectations of how the interaction should go have given them a sort of script which they assume I have as well, but in reality I have no idea what they want. I just know they want something in particular and I can tell I'm not giving them whatever it is. To clarify, usually they're looking for a particular response or vibe from me, or even have specific things in mind they'd like the other person to say. I think this is the result of watching yourself from the outside. Dom Fe users tend to do a type of "acting" when they're around people, in my observation, especially when they feel the stakes are high socially for whatever reason, or even just when they want their social image to be in accordance with how they view their ideal self.

 

[Dreamer]

I feel that way about Fe users, but hm. IDK
On one hand, it feels really nice and validating, but on the other it really does make me question whether there was really any meaningful interaction, in that the way these present themselves often feel like a script.

*note: not applicable to some nice Fe users that actually do rephrase things so that i know they internalised what was said.

Ahh yes, I repeat and rephrase too (when someone's trying to teach me something new) as I've misunderstood people in the past and have done something entirely different. That particularly is annoying when at work and your performance is actually measured versus just saying oops.
I feel the "wall" is different though. It isn't just a rephrasing of things, actually, they'll input their own commentary and thoughts as well, but what I feel is happening, is that what they communicate back, is an exact parallel to what I've just said. Not the same, but headed towards the same direction with no conflicts whatsoever. So there is this sort of "bond" at least in that sense, a social bonding of words, but it isn't the sort of communication I'd prefer, like walking up to a home and someone opening their front door. Even if they never let you inside, being able to peek inside around them gives you some of their context.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

This is just an observation I've had with three Fe doms in my sphere of acquaintances, two ENFJ and one ESFJ, but when I talk to them, I swear, what I get or feel from them is nothing of themselves, as if there is this wall up that prevents me seeing the real them. I don't believe they are Sp doms or anything as they are all very warm and welcoming, but I definitely feel this supposed barrier that no others I know seem to possess. It sometimes feels like I am talking to a wall, where my voice echoes and reverberates. What I hear back is different and not just a mirrored projection, but it's altered. This bounce-back affect is, what I believe, is the cause of me feeling like there is this wall between me and getting to know who they really are.

This is just an observation with some theorizing here, but if anyone can add to this or give their feedback, that'd be awesome. Is Fe like this? Is this a trait of Fe??

Out of curiosity, are these people especially "normal"? Do they live in fairly big suburban houses, work at a large company, communicate competitively, have all possessions quite beautiful (yard, clothes, car) etc? If not, then I would be interested to hear more details about them.

My feeling about the present culture is that it is as you describe these individuals. There is something excessively artificial about modern culture, especially as presented in the media. People who have a natural inclination to absorb and mirror back the outside world of expectations (possibly strong Fe), could be adept at exemplifying culture as it is. The behavior you describe is living up to the expectations of how a modern person behaves and presents imo.

What you are describing would then be a subset of people with strong Fe - it would be the ones specifically entrenched in modern pop culture. Place those same Fe-doms in a different culture like "Little House on the Prairie" and they may exemplify that authentic, down-home feeling.

 

[Dreamer]

Hmmm as a Fe user speaking here we do put up barriers but its not on purpose as its a trait of Fe to be socially acceptable and that means to some extent not being 100% true. Fe you can think of as a filter for their behavior and actions so that for a Fe dom its first nature to do that thing you describe above. A good way to get a Fe user to open up is to reassure them they will not be judged for not following Fe codes which ic a hard nut to crack. There may be other factors at play in those Fe dom (They very well could be Sp doms or image heavy types so they may be a heavy 2, 3 or 4 meaing that they will act in a way they want to bee seen as). I think with the ESFJs a good way to get them to open up is to appeal to their Si and Ne with your own on a note. BTW in our convos youve hit a Fe wall with me at times as hmm when you dig me I do close off (Im sorry btw for that). Its that in my head I am thinking about the social codes of expressing said emotion or thought.

Thanks for your input Brain. Hmm, you may be right. Even I they aren't Sp dom, it could be enneagram as well. One of the ENFJs is 2w3 (so obvious with it too it's kinda gross) and the other is 3, not sure of wing.

And no need to apologize, that's social conditioning at it again You didn't actually do anything wrong. If you put some wall up, it's because that's just how you are, not because of some malintent. You're fine Brain, you're fine!

 

[Lord Lavender]

Thanks for your input Brain. Hmm, you may be right. Even I they aren't Sp dom, it could be enneagram as well. One of the ENFJs is 2w3 (so obvious with it too it's kinda gross) and the other is 3, not sure of wing.

And no need to apologize, that's social conditioning at it again You didn't actually do anything wrong. If you put some wall up, it's because that's just how you are, not because of some malintent. You're fine Brain, you're fine!

Awww thanks for the reassuremnt, I do apologize a lot for some reason as im so E9 lol.. It seems the Fe doms are image types so that may be the cause not Fe. Basically what I think in my theories anyways is that image heavy people will put on masks to fit a certain image (Even Fi image heavy's but in a different way from Fe, I think a Fi image person will try to portray themselves to others based on their inner wants and desires while a Fe image type will do it in the classical way to fit an outer standard of an image. Like hmmm a Fi may want to feel badass so they put on a mask while a Fe may want to look cool in others eyes so they do the same and the end result can look similar but different motives).

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

Sometimes there can be a wall of positivity when there is no way to tell how the person actually feels. When this is expressed in backhanded compliments that could mean something positive and/or negative, then communication can become very complex. I can see strong Fe as being complex in its internal negotiation of motivation and intent. Sometimes it is too complex for me to read through. I don't usually get a blank read, so much as an uncertain one because I feel a lot of layers of authentic self filtered through social norms. One Fe-dom I admire works at my place of employment. She has a gingerbread person smile and is always positive in a way that feels simple, clear, and consistent. I was a little disappointed and thrown off when I found out she can become complex and catty when crossed. Now I'm not certain how to read her.

Perhaps the geniunely positive feelings from Fe are simple, straightforward, clear, and beautiful, but it is the anger and negativity that become infinitely complex because those emotions are the authentic self filtered through the external realm of social expectations and assumptions.

 

[Dreamer]

I have difficulty irl with strong Fe users, usually ExFJs. It feels like their expectations of how the interaction should go have given them a sort of script which they assume I have as well, but in reality I have no idea what they want. I just know they want something in particular and I can tell I'm not giving them whatever it is. To clarify, usually they're looking for a particular response or vibe from me, or even have specific things in mind they'd like the other person to say. I think this is the result of watching yourself from the outside. Dom Fe users tend to do a type of "acting" when they're around people, in my observation, especially when they feel the stakes are high socially for whatever reason, or even just when they want their social image to be in accordance with how they view their ideal self.

Ah yes, I get what you mean. I didn't pick up the "conditioned response" vibe that you have, with these three Fe doms, but I also haven't really examined them either. I can understand that response, particularly if they're acting out what they see in the mainstream as to what defines their culture, at least on a superficial level. Now, I know I'm using a common stereotype here, but I've heard countless times that Se doms in particular, like to put on a show or enter the room with a presence as if they are the stars to their own reality series. Well, I've heard of this with SFPs at least. What would you say is the difference, if both do in fact "act"? Is the Se type more self-centered in their act, and the Fe more "other" focused? Meaning, is the Se type the star of the movie, while the Fe type is one of the characters in the movie?
One other question (your post got me thinking! ) Do you feel you can see this "movie" play out around you? And do you think other types can be aware to this? I feel I more or less see this thing playing out around me, but it's something I actively have to turn on. And, even when I'm aware of it, it doesn't mean I'd act out as one of the characters.

Dang!! This actually gave me another idea to ponder... The difference between "acting" for an NFP versus an SFP. Thanks Magpie, ugh, this was super mentally stimulating. Back to work now...

 

[Cellmold]

I don't relate to any of this.

I'm pretty straightforward though, I'll hide emotion for a task if it's important enough to me but it's not by presenting a friendly or warm front & people easily know when I'm not happy.

 

[Dreamer]

I don't relate to any of this.

I'm pretty straightforward though, I'll hide emotion for a task if it's important enough to me but it's not by presenting a friendly or warm front & people easily know when I'm not happy.

Perhaps it's as [MENTION=30122]Cat Brainz[/MENTION] suggested and it's more an Enneagram image thing?

 

[Yama]

Perhaps it's as [MENTION=30122]Cat Brainz[/MENTION] suggested and it's more an Enneagram image thing?

I think it could be a combination of both to some extent--but possibly more related to enneagram. Image triad is the same as the heart triad, correct? That's my weakest triad, and I don't relate to any of them very strongly--and while I can relate to the Fe wall to an extent, it's much harder for me to actually hide my true emotions. Fe expressiveness--if I'm upset, I can try and hide it behind a wall, but in the end, you just know I'm upset because I can't hide it on my face. But it is true that I do sort of put up a wall between me and others, but only until I feel comfortable around that person. Then they come down. So in your case, it could be a wall, or it could be that that is just how those people are. There's at least some ring of truth to it.

 

[Dreamer]

Out of curiosity, are these people especially "normal"? Do they live in fairly big suburban houses, work at a large company, communicate competitively, have all possessions quite beautiful (yard, clothes, car) etc? If not, then I would be interested to hear more details about them.

My feeling about the present culture is that it is as you describe these individuals. There is something excessively artificial about modern culture, especially as presented in the media. People who have a natural inclination to absorb and mirror back the outside world of expectations (possibly strong Fe), could be adept at exemplifying culture as it is. The behavior you describe is living up to the expectations of how a modern person behaves and presents imo.

What you are describing would then be a subset of people with strong Fe - it would be the ones specifically entrenched in modern pop culture. Place those same Fe-doms in a different culture like "Little House on the Prairie" and they may exemplify that authentic, down-home feeling.

Great point Labyrinthine! I work in an expensive area so a good number of my coworkers are well-to-do. The two ENFJs are my coworkers. One of them is "quieter" about her status while the other one is very typical "SoCal" girly girl. Both ensure they always look their best around the office and other coworkers, even when we have a casual event outside the office, many of us hang out outside of work too. And though they both do project this image of themselves, I'm not so sure the "wall" is related to that? Well, as far as keeping things as cheery and positive as possible, as if your life has no wrong in it, I can see modern culture infiltrating that way in how they carry themselves.

Hmm...when I talk about the wall, let's see if I can describe it another way. Dang...ok well the wall metaphor I used really is the best way I can draw the meaning out. These ENFJ coworkers don't start conversation around topics that would suggest they are mirroring pop culture, or don't change the topic to things of status, but what I noticed they tend to do, is to actively participate with you in the conversation in a way that feels like you are getting somewhere with them, at least superficially, like you may think to yourself, "I'm talking a lot with this person, they're saying some personal things, I MUST be forming some bond with them", but when the conversation ends, you realize no actual connection or insight was ever gained. I'm kind of dumfounded as to how they do it to be honest, because they continue the conversation on, even add their own thoughts, but somehow, I still feel I am left not knowing anything deeper about them than before.

It really might be something else, and as others have also pointed out, may be a combination of things rather than some sole Fe thing, but it's just a common strain I've noticed between the three Fe doms I know.

 

[Lady Lazarus]

Build the wall.

 

[kotoshinohaisha]

That's true [emoji14] Because of Fe.. People pleasers

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

On thinking about this thread, I think there is actually a Fi-wall as well, but it tends to be more blank and defaults to assumptions of snobbery and such. I think the Fe-wall may often have a layer of positivity that hides negativity, but the Fi-wall reveals neither. The Fe-wall mirrors back the other person and provides an expectation about what to say next, and the Fi-wall leaves everyone uncomfortable with its blankness and creates uncertainty about what to say next.

 

[Cellmold]

This idea of a wall or front might have more to do with unconscious pick-up on societal habits. In other words if you follow the typology line of thinking and apply a concept of Fe then it's often seen as unpopular to voice an expression of emotion, or rather a negative one that might disrupt the ease of another's mind with your own emotional baggage.

But that's just one facet or theory on my part. Maybe there is a lingering unease about confronting your own issues, paying particular attention to the fact that most people appear (to me at least) to be very unhappy with their situations but, through a perverse sunken cost fallacy, unable to justify a change of direction to produce a better outcome for themselves. This can then be projected onto those who openly talk about their own issues and causes the projector to clam up even more out of resistance.

There is a video of Alan Watts that sums this up fairly succinctly:

But to continue, as a person who is affected or afflicted (depending on your view) by neurotic impulses, I recognise quite keenly the neuroticisms in others. For me the issue is that I very much enjoyed the moment to moment of my existence, engaging with hobbies and friends & becoming lost in engaging games and ideas. However I always seem to be surrounded by those who resented that I (at the time at least) didn't appear to be striving for the future in a rigid and specific manner focused on financial success and security. Some were doing this out of their sense of caring as in they didn't want to see me destitute or over-relying on my family.

I think that's fair enough, but there are those who are not so concerned with this angle as they are that their inner conflicts are colouring their outer relations; to the point that they place their fears onto others in order to test their resolve so they themselves can feel relieved, temporarily, of their own stresses.

And I would argue this 'wall' is built out of these stresses and an unwillingness to confront them due to their potential emotional disturbance; ignorance is incredibly useful in our ability to be productive, but not always useful for ease of mind.

The lack of connection, then, is not because of a lack of intellectual or engaging content, but a lack of a genuine presentation of that content. This means there is a trapping, where we get stuck in the hall of mirrors and can only feed back into more of what we know about what we already know.

What you believe shows and it drives everything you do as a human being, even if your beliefs are paradoxically in the realm of logic and reason, the extreme heights of which tend to expose their limitations.

I'm not sure, on the whole, if we are ready to attempt an escape of this hall of mirrors. But maybe it's about water dripping on a stone in some cave, rather than a burst dam.

 

[ChocolateMoose123]

This idea of a wall or front might have more to do with unconscious pick-up on societal habits. In other words if you follow the typology line of thinking and apply a concept of Fe then it's often seen as unpopular to voice an expression of emotion, or rather a negative one that might disrupt the ease of another's mind with your own emotional baggage.

But that's just one facet or theory on my part. Maybe there is a lingering unease about confronting your own issues, paying particular attention to the fact that most people appear (to me at least) to be very unhappy with their situations but, through a perverse sunken cost fallacy, unable to justify a change of direction to produce a better outcome for themselves. This can then be projected onto those who openly talk about their own issues and causes the projector to clam up even more out of resistance.

There is a video of Alan Watts that sums up this fairly succinctly:

But to continue, as a person who is affected or afflicted (depending on your view) by neurotic impulses, I recognise quite keenly the neuroticisms in others. For me the issue is that I very much enjoyed the moment to moment of my existence, engaging with hobbies and friends & becoming lost in engaging games and ideas. However I always seem to be surrounded by those who resented that I (at the time at least) didn't appear to be striving for the future in a rigid and specific manner focused on financial success and security. Some were doing this out of their sense of caring as in they didn't want to see me destitute or over-relying on my family.

I think that's fair enough, but there are those who are not so concerned with this angle as they are that their inner conflicts are colouring their outer relations; to the point that they place their fears onto others in order to test their resolve so they themselves can feel relieved, temporarily, of their own stresses.

And I would argue this 'wall' is built out of these stresses and an unwillingness to confront them due to their potential emotional disturbance; ignorance is incredibly useful in our ability to be productive, but not always useful for ease of mind.

The lack of connection, then, is not because of a lack of intellectual or engaging content, but a lack of a genuine presentation of that content. This means there is a trapping, where we get stuck in the hall of mirrors and can only feed back into more of what we know about what we already know.

What you believe shows and it drives everything you do as a human being, even if your beliefs are paradoxically in the realm of logic and reason, the extreme heights of which tend to expose their limitations.

I'm not sure, on the whole, if we are ready to attempt an escape of this hall of mirrors. But maybe it's about water dripping on a stone in some cave, rather than a burst dam.

"It's not you; it's me"

see also:

"It's not me; it's you"

 

[Cellmold]

"It's not you; it's me"

see also:

"It's not me; it's you"

How dare you sum up my wall of complicated shit, that I read a lot of books to achieve, like that.