Extremes of humility and pride in a game

[Ghost of the dead horse]

I've had a chance to personally witness a person who goes to the extremes in both. Lets say thay play a shooting game in a team. He knows his role, he's trained, he goes to play. He thinks he handles himself well. Then there's some stuff everyone mistakes at some time, like dropping a flag in a flag carrying mission. Now when this guy makes a similar mistake, he gives explanations that are just impossible given the circumstances. He gives these defensive explanations pretty long time.

After a while people are agitated for him making the same mistake, say, dropping the flag. People shout at him, why doesn't he understand, he did drop the flag, and this is wrong with it. They explain it clearly. This guy resists for a long time. Resists for like 15 minutes with pride. Then he collapses, goes to reverse mode. He asks why everyone is after them, why do they hate him? In his own eyes, he is hated by everyone. Why do they hate him so much. He is devastated. Also, he fully (and overly) understands the extent of his errors and overexaggerates it a good amount. HE never does anything good. Everything is bad with him. How can he be allowed to be in the team.

I've tried to tell him he shouldn't be so cocky for making errors. Like being behind a pillar when a bomb goes off. I've tried to explain what's being behind a pillar in the game. He's stubborn, either stating he's done nothing wrong, or on the other hand, acting like he's terrible and lost his will to live.

Now, can you push me in the right direction to help this guy. He's in the clan, we rely on him somewhat, BUT it's really hard for the rest of the team he's not orientated towards devolopment. He doesn't have good skills in understanding himself. How can we stop this drama, with extremes about self-love and self-hate? The other players have talked about game mechanics, I've talked about those, and also about psychology. I'm not sure if anything is helping.

 

[Ghost of the dead horse]

So in short, this guy's self esteem is probably pretty bad, as he's going to the extremes of portrayal of high and low self-esteem. Both of these make him unresponsive to advice. I'd like to help him out of it. Advice?

 

[Mole]

So in short, this guy's self esteem is probably pretty bad, as he's going to the extremes of portrayal of high and low self-esteem. Both of these make him unresponsive to advice. I'd like to help him out of it. Advice?

This may seem like a terrible thing to say but I don't believe we can help people.

Usually when we try to help people we are acting on an agenda of our own. And unsurprisingly we are unaware of the agenda we bring to helping others.

Perhaps the best we can do is to see our desire to help others is a psychological defence aganst knowing ourselves.

But what is striking is that the helper focuses entirely on the outer circumstances and blots out the inner circumstances.

And perhaps the best we can do is satirise the helper.

 

[Ghost of the dead horse]

I'm not playing like I know everything or like I don't have an agenda, on the contrary, I recognize my agenda. I want to make the best out of my clan and my gaming experience. People have been helped before within this framework and they will be helped in the future. It's not selfless help, but it's not selfish help either, it's something in between.

Edit: if I went further on examining my motives, I have a long history of coaching or helping people to fit a group, enable them to fit a particular purpose within an organization or to do a job. So this is the kind of activity that supports my career as well. I think I'm pretty much aware of my motives. So, even in the context of self-interest, this guy could have genuine help from me. If I were just able to formulate the right kind of help.

 

[Mole]

I'm not playing like I know everything or like I don't have an agenda, on the contrary, I recognize my agenda. I want to make the best out of my clan and my gaming experience. People have been helped before within this framework and they will be helped in the future. It's not selfless help, but it's not selfish help either, it's something in between.

Edit: if I went further on examining my motives, I have a long history of coaching or helping people to fit a group, enable them to fit a particular purpose within an organization or to do a job. So this is the kind of activity that supports my career as well. I think I'm pretty much aware of my motives. So, even in the context of self-interest, this guy could have genuine help from me. If I were just able to formulate the right kind of help.

Perhaps game players and helpers are beyond satire.

But I do think that fitting people for an organisation is what mbti does, so you are in the right place.

And mbti is for those with no direct contact with their own psyche or the psyches of others.

Mbti is for those with a profound disability, and game playing is set up to disguise this.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Perhaps game players and helpers are beyond satire.

But I do think that fitting people for an organisation is what mbti does, so you are in the right place.

People have to be part of organizations if they are to survive. Unless you're some kind of super-athletic mountain man who can catch all their own food, but I read a book about people who tried to rely on their own resources to survive, and they ended up not being successful

 

[Ghost of the dead horse]

Perhaps game players and helpers are beyond satire.

But I do think that fitting people for an organisation is what mbti does, so you are in the right place.

And mbti is for those with no direct contact with their own psyche or the psyches of others.

Mbti is for those with a profound disability, and game playing is set up to disguise this.

MBTI was not mentioned. Maybe you are eager to find examples of ill-fitting MBTI theories due to some agenda of yours?

I skipped some levels of satire I saw you portray due to them being unfitting for the subject. Maybe you ought not to hold yourself in such high regard in understanding different levels of communication. Surely you can talk plainly to ensure that less able persons are able to follow your line of thought, or would a plain manner of speech perhaps expose you have no worthy line of thought at all?

 

[Mole]

People have to be part of organizations if they are to survive. Unless you're some kind of super-athletic mountain man who can catch all their own food, but I read a book about people who tried to rely on their own resources to survive, and they ended up not being successful

In prison we can only survive if we join a prison gang. Those who try to go it alone in prison don't last very long.

Fortunately many of us have busted out of prison, we have tunnelled our way out with books, and become literate individuals, with spontaneous thoughts and feelings.

Unfortunatly there are also many who remain in their psychological prison who can only find psychological safety in a gang or an organisation.

And outside of a prison, a physical prison or a psychological prison, we find springing delight in spontaneous thoughts and feelings.

We freed the prisoners from the Bastille on 14 July, 1789, and today all we need to do is free us from the prison of our own psyche.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Unfortunatly there are also many who remain in their psychological prison who can only find psychological safety in a gang or an organisation.

I'm not talking about psychological safety. I'm talking about physiological safety.

 

[Mole]

MBTI was not mentioned. Maybe you are eager to find examples of ill-fitting MBTI theories due to some agenda of yours?

I skipped some levels of satire I saw you portray due to them being unfitting for the subject. Maybe you ought not to hold yourself in such high regard in understanding different levels of communication. Surely you can talk plainly to ensure that less able persons are able to follow your line of thought, or would a plain manner of speech perhaps expose you have no worthy line of thought at all?

We will never escape with plain speech. The Puritans tried to escape with plain speech, it only imprisoned them further.

We need metaphor, allusion, imagination, and poetry to escape.

But the fear of freedom trumps the pleasures and delights of escape. We are so afraid of freedom we imprison ourselves in games and mbti. We create a prison out of our own psyche.

Here they all are: looking out of the bars of the Bastille, while we hear the the Marseillaise slowly rising in the background, La Marseillaise Casablanca - YouTube

 

[tkae.]

We as humans are naturally ego-defensive, and it (along with lots of other things) leads to a concept called the fundamental attribution error. Summed up in a nutshell, it's the idea that we tend to believe someone else does something because that's how they are as a person (i.e. texting at a red light and missing it turn green because they're an inconsiderate ass) but that we do the same things because of the situation and that it doesn't sum up who we are (i.e. texting at a red light because it's been red for three minutes and if we don't notice it turn green, it was an accident and we aren't inconsiderate intentionally).

Once you reign the logical fallacy back in and realize that most things people do are situational more than personal, it's actually healthy in some ways. It keeps us from beating ourselves up more than necessary when things go bad and promotes a positive outlook on ourselves and our abilities when things go well. Combined, those make us happier people with a positive outlook on ourselves and our lives.

Examples: if I hit a home run, it's because I'm great a baseball, but if I miss the home run it's because it was a good pitch that I guessed wrong; if I'm late to work, it was because I didn't sleep well and traffic was horrible, if I get a bonus it's because I'm a quality employee who does their job well.

The downside is what you're noticing. Ego-defensiveness protects us from the faulty assumption that we've brought about all of the consequences we face (the just world hypothesis, or that if our actions are meaningful, our actions must mean we deserve everything we get for some reason rather than the world having an element of randomness ((the conclusion being that we deserve to have bad things happen to us when they do))), but can also make us resistant to positive change. It's why the best way to approach someone about changing their actions isn't to assault the logic and outcome of them, but to empathize with the reasons they're doing those actions and be supportive in helping them find ways to implement the better behaviors. And if they don't see anything wrong with their behaviors? You're not going to get them to change.

EDIT: To suggest some specific actions you can take --

You need to approach him from behind rather than from the front. Saying, "You did this wrong," IMMEDIATELY makes us as humans go on the defense. Like last night I was playing League. I play Support, and my carry kept saying he was a Diamond smurf. He kept calling me out for not being aggressive enough in lane, but I'm 1.) not flawless in landing stuns and 2.) the opponent was playing very defensive and I was having to extend VERY FAR to make the kind of aggressive plays he wanted. I wasn't on a champion that was mobile enough to do that safely. I'm sure he had some good points about things I could have done better, but I wasn't playing how I was for no reason. Instead of getting in an argument about it, I just tried to do what he wanted and ended up dying a lot for it, since we couldn't stop the game to have a deep conversation about it. The point in all that being that you have to give ground to get ground. Yes, I could have been more aggressive, but not in the situations he was expecting. I could have been much more aggressive in that circumstance, but only if I were on a different champion.

If he absolutely refuses to change, there's really nothing you can do. He needs to realize that his actions are maladaptive on his own, and have the willingness to change. That said, the team needs to foster an atmosphere where that kind of realization can be made. Like I said in another thread a little while ago, a random stranger fat-shaming a person is not conducive to change. That just beats them down, and public stranger really aren't the best to critique us. In teams, 9/10 times the person legitimately knows they've done something wrong. They just don't want to admit it or believe it, especially to others, ESPECIALLY to others that rely on them in some way. We're social creatures and have a biosocial need for others, and being the weak link in a group is a cognitive dissonance we actively try to work ourselves out of. "I'm not a bad team player, my team is just shit." As a personal example, I've ulted myself rather than a teammate I was trying to save more than a few times. Usually it meant that I held the ult too long and that died, so it self-cast. If the team laughs it off and it doesn't completely tank the team's morale, I'll laugh as well and admit I fucked up. If they attack me over it and say I cost them the game, I'm probably going to counter back that it's not my fault they died so fast, that means they fucked up and their stupid is beyond my skill to save. The objective facts of the situation don't matter at that point, so why not go forward in a positive way?

The immediate tip I can give is to frame every suggestion in active and inclusive terms. Instead of saying not to hide behind the wall with the bomb, say, "Next time let's try getting you out in the open for it." Instead of saying not to run out into the open, say, "Let's try to work on being in cover more." By shifting the issue as something the team can work on as a whole (and you can, it's never wrong to work on basic things like that), it takes the edge of the pressure off of him and makes it more palatable. By being active, it makes the person feel like they're in control of changing their future actions, rather than being forced to relive something they did wrong in the past and can no longer change.

What FPS are you talking about by the way? Just out of curiosity.

 

[Ghost of the dead horse]

What FPS are you talking about by the way? Just out of curiosity.

Ah, my explanation came up like shit. I started about a theoretical situation but I ended up talking about a guy we play WoW battlegrounds with, with some FPS terminology thrown in. I didn't want to talk about the line of sight (LoS) tactics in WoW PvP which I thought would be prone to misunderstanding so I used a bomb metaphor.

Well from what you wrote I understand this guy is probably pretty stressed up. Tactics discussion brings out the worst of him. Probably just about anything - short of ideal perfection - brings out the worst in him. Maybe the ideal is then to discuss what to do (positively) instead of thinking what not to do. Maybe we should put less pressure on him, take a rematch fast without dwelling on details too long. Given some practice, people learn to do things right. Maybe he's not good with stress and we're interfering with his learning process by demanding explanations during game.

I can understand something of that from my own perspective. I'm sensitive to hostility within a team, I easily lose the will to play, so after the first insult from a team member in a game I barely even try anymore. This guy is just more so, not only sensitive to insults, but what he believes are insults or even slight criticism or even slight innuendo or suggestions.

Also I can understand him from my troubles in speaking/writing and playing the same time. I sometimes spoil my games by starting to write a lot when I get defensive, which only makes the situation worse. I just don't do it in this game, but I understand the concept. This guy doesn't speak that much during games but maybe he handles simultaneous speaking / playing just as badly as I, or perhaps worse.

The worst is, he doesn't admit to error until he totally collapses, so maybe we should stop demanding good explanations from him. It just irritates like hell to hear counterfactual excuses. Maybe we should just leave it at that - if he says something that simply isn't possible, I should express doubt but to continue. It doesn't help ignoring his counterfactual claims, as he then later makes references to those claims as if they were facts, which makes it even harder to reconstruct what really happened. So, maybe a short mild comment from me, in case of defensive lying, and continuing with the game, would ease up the stress he experiences and facilitate better performance and mood for everyone.

I mean, I've been pretty aggressive about the lying. Well, it's hard to tell apart whether someone's lying or just being aggressively self-serving in their interpretations. I could afford to be less aggressive.

 

[Reborn Relic]

[MENTION=988]UnitOfPopulation[/MENTION]

Is there anything he's particularly good at? Maybe asking about how he got there could lead to a potential solution.

Failing that, @tkae summed up what you might want to do pretty perfectly. You might also want to run with his explanations and act like the suggestion you're giving him is meant for everyone, as well, as a solution to the problem of [bad explanation].

 

[Ghost of the dead horse]

Well he's good at healing. I've suggested we use him at that permanently.

Edit: BUT! He's not good at any healing. He is, at some. So it's halfway settled, halfway not. How to use him?

Edit 2: this is a silly setting. Something much more specific is required of a player than the fact that he heals. We can't go on that feeling alone. We'll see how the play turns out

 

[PeaceBaby]

I've had a chance to personally witness a person who goes to the extremes in both. Lets say thay play a shooting game in a team. He knows his role, he's trained, he goes to play. He thinks he handles himself well. Then there's some stuff everyone mistakes at some time, like dropping a flag in a flag carrying mission. Now when this guy makes a similar mistake, he gives explanations that are just impossible given the circumstances. He gives these defensive explanations pretty long time.

After a while people are agitated for him making the same mistake, say, dropping the flag. People shout at him, why doesn't he understand, he did drop the flag, and this is wrong with it. They explain it clearly. This guy resists for a long time. Resists for like 15 minutes with pride. Then he collapses, goes to reverse mode. He asks why everyone is after them, why do they hate him? In his own eyes, he is hated by everyone. Why do they hate him so much. He is devastated. Also, he fully (and overly) understands the extent of his errors and overexaggerates it a good amount. HE never does anything good. Everything is bad with him. How can he be allowed to be in the team.

The reason for this type of behaviour is not clear to you? If I help you understand this better, what is your goal in using this information? Is it about helping this person, or more about winning the game?

 

[Ghost of the dead horse]

People acting like they were 14 was never a satisfactory answer for me. Well he hold the game as important, he is excited. I'd conclude I've been too tough on him. He's good, that's why he's with us, but part of his performance is not good, which is why I'm dissatisfied.

Edit: well this is not a competitive team, rather meant as a fun team. But there's still some expectations.

But, there's parts that are in no way related to me, but they instead come from what he really is. Why is there the drama? He must on great stress. But it's boring to see people who are on great stress. It's not relaxing for anyone. It's not cool to take a place in a team and significantly stress out about your position. So what it means, he's someone who stresses out? High strung?

Too much responsibility too fast? I'm pressing too hard?

Edit 2: No, I'm not pressing too hard. This person is someone who has the habit of stressing out.

 

[Mole]

People acting like they were 14 was never a satisfactory answer for me. Well he hold the game as important, he is excited. I'd conclude I've been too tough on him. He's good, that's why he's with us, but part of his performance is not good, which is why I'm dissatisfied.

Edit: well this is not a competitive team, rather meant as a fun team. But there's still some expectations.

But, there's parts that are in no way related to me, but they instead come from what he really is. Why is there the drama? He must on great stress. But it's boring to see people who are on great stress. It's not relaxing for anyone. It's not cool to take a place in a team and significantly stress out about your position. So what it means, he's someone who stresses out? High strung?

Too much responsibility too fast? I'm pressing too hard?

Edit 2: No, I'm not pressing too hard. This person is someone who has the habit of stressing out.

It would be better if this were about you, rather than gossiping about someone who is not here and unable to answer for themselves.

 

[eisce faery]

This may seem like a terrible thing to say but I don't believe we can help people.

Usually when we try to help people we are acting on an agenda of our own. And unsurprisingly we are unaware of the agenda we bring to helping others.

Perhaps the best we can do is to see our desire to help others is a psychological defence aganst knowing ourselves.

But what is striking is that the helper focuses entirely on the outer circumstances and blots out the inner circumstances.

And perhaps the best we can do is satirise the helper.

You have a good point, but I do think we can help people by leaving them alone to sort themselves out. "Helping" is seen as either to make the other person happier (about life or whatnot) or trying to make them more productive to the group or society in some way.

Personally it would bother me greatly to be around such drama and I would have to say that my agenda would be all about self preservation of my psyche and happiness resulting in me staying far away from that person without really feeling the need to direct him. I would have a myriad of reasons why I think he is protectively prideful and too subjective about the game to really make it enjoyable for the rest of the players. This is all adult talk in the mystical land of everyone talking calmly and respectfully.

 

[Rambling]

People acting like they were 14 was never a satisfactory answer for me. Well he hold the game as important, he is excited. I'd conclude I've been too tough on him. He's good, that's why he's with us, but part of his performance is not good, which is why I'm dissatisfied.

Edit: well this is not a competitive team, rather meant as a fun team. But there's still some expectations.

But, there's parts that are in no way related to me, but they instead come from what he really is. Why is there the drama? He must on great stress. But it's boring to see people who are on great stress. It's not relaxing for anyone. It's not cool to take a place in a team and significantly stress out about your position. So what it means, he's someone who stresses out? High strung?

Too much responsibility too fast? I'm pressing too hard?

Edit 2: No, I'm not pressing too hard. This person is someone who has the habit of stressing out.

If you can make him laugh...that might go some way towards it. Shared laughter is a good thing and lowers barriers, I think.

No idea about the context since I don't do video games of your descriptions.

 

[Pionart]

If you can make him laugh...that might go some way towards it. Shared laughter is a good thing and lowers barriers, I think.

No idea about the context since I don't do video games of your descriptions.