[Jungian Cognitive Functions] Explain Stuff to Jeffster!

[Snow Turtle]

Thank you for this, because by Athenian's example A, it sounded like regular ol' Ti. So Ni will actually "see" those things happening? Like CSI?

Well I'm not an Ni user so I wouldn't know exactly but the impression that I get is that part of Ni is like Ti except the middle processing part is completely hidden from the user. The final result comes to user and gives the Oh wow effect.

It's not magical at all. The book called Blink talks about thin-slicing and predicting stuff based on limited information, but there's alot of processing going on in the background. I'm a heavy Ti user but I've never really had this flash of insight moments coming from no where that NJs keep on talking about. I might be surprised by results, but I'm always conscious of how I got to my conclusion.

 

[Udog]

Someone tells you a long story. However, the part where they talked about what they did after the club sticks out as 'odd'. You know with certainty there is a problem with this part of the story, but are not sure what it is. So you start picking at it with questions to try and either pull the lie out or make everything properly fit together again.

 

[stellar renegade]

What's Udog? Wait, that's different than what I'm thinking of.

Well I'm not an Ni user so I wouldn't know exactly but the impression that I get is that part of Ni is like Ti except the middle processing part is completely hidden from the user. The final result comes to user and gives the Oh wow effect.

It's not magical at all. The book called Blink talks about thin-slicing and predicting stuff based on limited information, but there's alot of processing going on in the background. I'm a heavy Ti user but I've never really had this flash of insight moments coming from no where that NJs keep on talking about. I might be surprised by results, but I'm always conscious of how I got to my conclusion.

Oh, I see, yeah.

 

[Sidewinder]

I find my Ni is getting much better and I'm using it a lot more. I'd describe it as "how things are going to go based on x". So if you have a current situation you don't like, you can think of what you might do in that situation (that's more Se) and then Ni helps you determine what the outcome is going to be if you do x.

A good use of Se and Ni together is in driving a manual transmission car (so many IsxPs drive stick for that reason). The Se helps you with the co-ordination and clutch feel and quickly getting to the catch point on a hill, for example). But then Ni helps you look ahead to road conditions to see what gear you should be in. I might look ahead to see if the next light is red or not. If it's red and has obviously been that way for a while (a few cars stacked up) then I may not gear to 4th. I might stay in 2nd and be light on the gas and I'll be in the right gear just as the light has turned to green and the cars ahead are starting up. Se and Ni are also great together in art, cooking, flirting with girls!

 

[nightning]

Will be doing an audio blog on a concrete example of the use of Ni in problem solving for you later tonight Jeff. Since I know you'd rather hear it then see a big page full of words.

 

[simulatedworld]

Ok, no offense but that's depressing. I mean, sure, you can see that a beautiful sign is supposed to give you that warm fuzzy welcome feeling, but all it is, is a wooden board with some letters on, but I prefer to recognize that as such and still go on enjoying the warm fuzzy feeling it invokes and dream about what else could be, enhancing said feeling

Which would explain why you're an Ne dom and not Ni.

 

[ygolo]

From an external point of view, Ni is looks like psychic ability--namely clairvoyance, and mind reading. I hope you've watched enough Sci-Fi/Fantasy to know what these things mean concretely.

You gotta admit psych powers can be positive, even if it is just simulated psychic powers.

Obviously, Ni users don't have real clairvoyance or mind-reading abilities. But their processing of experience makes it so they have amazing predictive powers.

I know an infj that can understand the giberish of the most inarticulate of pepole...and an amazing ability to predict where people he knows are and why they are there...as well as what is going on in people lives without being told.

This can also be bad, because even when they don't have the experience to predict well, they will still attempt to do so. But it is amzing how often it actually works.

 

[stellar renegade]

Recently an ESFP at work told us a story about how she got gyped out of $1000 because she listened to this guy (don't really know the whole story, her telling was so brief). But she was just thinking about the money, and her grandma had told her mom two days before it happened that it would occur, and this girl still didn't listen.

haha. Kinda amusing since I'd been studying up on this recently.

 

[nightning]

Here you go Jeffster...

I hope it's understandable. I know science and chemistry isn't really your thing... but I think it's an illustrative example of Ni in action.

Nightning describes Ni with snakes and benzene rings (large mp3 file)

ps- I didn't realize I use that much "essentially" and "I guess" when I try to explain things.

 

[Jeffster]

It's like if you go walking in the woods, and you just take in everything without thinking about it. The perception of your surroundings is Se, the peace and inward calm of your being is Ni. At least that's the way I look at it.

Do you have a source on this one or are you just talking out of your ass? I have yet to read anything that says Ni is "peace and inward calm." In fact, it seems quite the opposite. By the first-hand accounts of Ni-dominant people in that "functions in real life" topic, it sounds like it is anything but peaceful and calm.

It's like being willing to walk away from your rich mansion and hop out of your expensive sportscar right before it goes reeling off a cliff, or give away all your possessions to the poor and journey to a far-off land just for the heckuvit.

Oh yeah, I totally relate to that. I'll get back to you later after I drive my sportscar back to my mansion.

Ok instead of my usual ridiculously exaggerated technical jargon brain fart for comic meta-effect, I'll just try to explain Ni...

Nice.

It's basically being able to step out of your bubble and think about the underlying values that drive personal interactions. (That's only one part of it, but I'm trying to give a real example.)

When I'm having a strong Ni moment, I realize that, excepting truly mentally retarded people, no one is actually stupid. Their value systems just differ from mine and I'm making a mistake when I assume that my value system is fundamentally superior.

Honestly, you've already displayed pretty good Ni for a strong SP type just by being interested in typology and trying to understand all the different ways people think about the world that may differ from yours.

Remember, nobody is actually stupid--their priorities are just really, really different from yours.

Ni is hard to discuss in more concrete terms than that, unfortunately.

None of that sounds like anything that can't be accomplished with just Fi and Se. My trying to understand people is a combination of two things - practical use for better communication with people, this involves doing a better job listening to what people say and actually, believing what they say about their own motivations, rather than projecting my own thoughts and feelings onto them. So, really, it sounds like the right thing to do is exactly the opposite of what has been described as Ni - where you make assumptions about the possibilities instead of paying attention to what is actually there.

The other part of it is just that I like people and I find them fun to interact with. So once again, I'm not seeing this as an area where looking for hidden meanings or possibilities is something that's needed in any way.

Remember that Asian mountains post? You saw the pattern and then exploited it to have an impact. Se/Ni.

So, you think Ni is the only thing that can pick up a pattern? From what I have read, I disagree. Breasts as mountains is a Se-based metaphor. It describes the shape of what they look like, not anything mystical or hidden. I guess my feeling continues to be that this theory of everybody basically having the same stuff inside, just shuffled, is kind of a cop-out or an oversimplification of people. I think people were created to be different from each other for good reasons. Some people seem to think that to "develop", we need to become more like someone else. I don't agree with that notion.

I guess this is why I continue to think David Keirsey is the best of the personality type gurus, because it seems he is the most accepting of the idea that it's okay for people to be fundamentally different - and not just like someone else turned inside out or upside down.

Imagine that you're an overworked bank teller.....

Ath, I really loved your bank robbery story, that was awesome. It didn't make me think Ni is something positive in any way, but it was exciting. I was sweating just reading it.

Well, heck, maybe that is the positive right there. It can aid in storytelling. If I was a bank teller in that situation, my thoughts would definitely cross those areas of what I needed to do. But that would once again be SP-tactics at work, I wouldn't waste time thinking about what the robber might do, in fact spending time doing that might be exactly what got me killed. Situation like that, I'd be acting on pure instinct or possibly Si-based experience with a similar situation.


Overall, so far, I think people are trying to force actions into a mold of Ni, rather than the other way around. I think the attitude of trying to make everybody fit into a symmetrical function order system is almost like giving a gold star to every student in school whether they get anything right or not. It seems to be trying to force similarities by bending the definitions to fit very different actions, such as those taken by an SP would be from an NF.

Still reading for sure....thanks for all the replies.

 

[stellar renegade]

Of course I'm just talking out of my ass. Does it look like my type does anything but?

Naw, but I don't think it's necessarily so much "what" goes on in there as it is the direction of focus. Focus outward would be Se, focus directly inward would be Ni. Just because nothing's going on externally doesn't mean you're not functioning in Se. Of course you're probably right, they tend to be more internally active than not.

In the other thread, though, they (Athenian and wolfy) were talking about meditation being a combined Se/Ni phenomenon, so's. I'm not alone on this, at least.

And, um, well, you sure you're not gonna end up selling platinum albums anytime soon? Cuz y'know, I can help you get a deal, if you need.

 

[Usehername]

Usehername gave me an example that I think has some merit, but it was in a PM, so I'm not gonna post it here unless she gives me permission.

You're welcome to post anything we've exchanged in our PMs, where I have learned first-hand just how much of a stand-up guy The Jeffster really is. We're pretty much BFF now.

(Also, I should make clear that I acknowledged to Jeffster that we all have our blind spots, so we should remember too that my iteration of the story will include its blind spots as well.)

 

[Athenian200]

where you make assumptions about the possibilities instead of paying attention to what is actually there.

The other part of it is just that I like people and I find them fun to interact with. So once again, I'm not seeing this as an area where looking for hidden meanings or possibilities is something that's needed in any way.

Why do you keep assuming that this is what Ni does?

You're only focusing on ONE aspect of it's process and completely misinterpreting it.

Introverted Intuition

If you read this carefully, you'll see that Ni tries to locate hidden assumptions in order to reject them, not to embrace them.

The goal of Ni is transcend hidden assumptions in your thinking so that you can see the underlying reality more clearly.

Ath, I really loved your bank robbery story, that was awesome. It didn't make me think Ni is something positive in any way, but it was exciting. I was sweating just reading it.

Well, heck, maybe that is the positive right there. It can aid in storytelling. If I was a bank teller in that situation, my thoughts would definitely cross those areas of what I needed to do. But that would once again be SP-tactics at work, I wouldn't waste time thinking about what the robber might do, in fact spending time doing that might be exactly what got me killed. Situation like that, I'd be acting on pure instinct or possibly Si-based experience with a similar situation.

Haha. Yes, Ni is very good at storytelling. Weaving a fairly realistic, imaginary situation and placing you in it.

For you, it would be a waste of time for you to stop and think this way, yes. But for an Ni type, this process would be instinctive. They wouldn't actually have to think it out in words, this would all just flash in their head instantly, and they'd make a quick choice based on it.

One thing that Ni and Se have in common, is that it's easier to DO and engage the process, experience it, rather than to explain it. If you try to explain or express it, it loses something. It's just not going to make sense to you until you become aware of it in yourself rather than trying to look at it as something external that has to be explained.

 

[stellar renegade]

s'kind of freakay.

 

[Quinlan]

Overall, so far, I think people are trying to force actions into a mold of Ni, rather than the other way around. I think the attitude of trying to make everybody fit into a symmetrical function order system is almost like giving a gold star to every student in school whether they get anything right or not. It seems to be trying to force similarities by bending the definitions to fit very different actions, such as those taken by an SP would be from an NF.

This is interesting, could you elaborate?

What do you think of my contingency planning example? You can't use just Se or Fi for that, at some point you have to come up with possibilities out of nowhere.

Regarding gold stars etc. I think you have to look at what the system is trying to achieve, it's original purpose was supposed to be for help in making career choices. Now most of us when making career decisions already have a reasonable idea about what we're good at from school grades, exams etc., but being good at something is mostly irrelevant if you're looking for something fulfilling in the long run. You can be good at something yet absolutely despise doing it. That is why MBTI (kind of) asks not "what functions are you good at?" but "what functions do you enjoy using?" because a career that involves using those functions that you enjoy using is probably going to be the most satisfying.

I tend to think of the functions as going from being used in a very basic form (seeing the mountains and the breasts is basic sensing, connecting the two together is basic intuition) to being used in a very complex and skillful form. When people say "everyone uses all the functions" they are really saying "everyone uses the functions in a basic form". We all use Ni, but how you interpret and use Ni is going to be very different from the Ni dom's brand own of Ni.

Now I believe that just because a function is your dominant and most comfortable function doesn't mean you will be skillful in it's use, after all, comfort breeds complacency, to improve in anything you have use deliberate practice, you need to be conciously looking for improvement and setting goals and practicing techniques that are always just beyond your reach to improve.

Having a preference for your top two functions might give you a head start in their use, but in my opinion there is nothing stopping other types exceeding your abilities in those functions if you're just coasting along comfortably.

 

[nightning]

Hmmmm Se + Ni.... for me anyways, what Se observes feeds directly into Ni. First observe, then internalize, then draw connections.

Without input, Ni comes up with crack theories that have no bearings to reality. Similarly Ni feeds back to Se... in providing possible explanations for what's observed or experienced. I guess depending on your function preference, you'll use one to feed the other more often.

There's a red throat flicker sitting in the tree right outside my window. First I only saw something that didn't bob right in the wind (most of the bird is brownish see and blends well with the leaves). Se noticed movement, Ni detected mismatching movement to the movement of wind blown leaves. Further examination by Se observed outlines, Ni/Si linked the shape and pattern to be a small woodpecker or some sort. Assumption on type of bird... the red throat flicker is the most probable... recheck patterns on the bird. Matches. Identity confirmed.

 

[Jeffster]

One example: worst case scenario planning, with Ni foreseeing possible developments, you would hope that whoever designed the plane you're flying in had come up with and taken into account as many scenarios as possible. "What would happen if a flock of seagulls flew into the engines? What would happen in a terrorist attack?" These kind of questions and answers to them are very positive and help us avoid disaster.

The most positive thing about Ni is foresight. Either short term or long term. This is very very helpful in life.

And also approximation. Weighing what's right and wrong and the percentages for each choice and going with the most probable one. Ni users are pros in that department. This is the reason I ace all multiple choice tests, sometimes without touching my book. I use Ni for weighing my options and deciding which one is the most probable and it rarely lets me down.

These are both really good, thanks.

 

[wolfy]

So, you think Ni is the only thing that can pick up a pattern? From what I have read, I disagree. Breasts as mountains is a Se-based metaphor. It describes the shape of what they look like, not anything mystical or hidden. I guess my feeling continues to be that this theory of everybody basically having the same stuff inside, just shuffled, is kind of a cop-out or an oversimplification of people. I think people were created to be different from each other for good reasons. Some people seem to think that to "develop", we need to become more like someone else. I don't agree with that notion.

I guess this is why I continue to think David Keirsey is the best of the personality type gurus, because it seems he is the most accepting of the idea that it's okay for people to be fundamentally different - and not just like someone else turned inside out or upside down.

It was bad of me to stir, using your post as an example of Ni. You're right, I was reading up on it and reread this article.

How to tell iNtuiting from extraverted Sensing

Extraverted Sensing and extraverted iNtuiting are holistic, analogic perceptual modes. In extraverted Sensing, the individual elements, like the trees in the forest, are seen in rich detail, all at once. Thus concrete patterns are quite likely to be perceived along with the discrete sensory information. This pattern is different from the abstract extraverted iNtuiting perception of the relationships and connections of the trees to the rest of the environment. Both pattern and big picture can be on a continuum from concrete to abstract.

I agree, Quin and Ace's examples are good.

 

[Sidewinder]

Overall, so far, I think people are trying to force actions into a mold of Ni, rather than the other way around. I think the attitude of trying to make everybody fit into a symmetrical function order system is almost like giving a gold star to every student in school whether they get anything right or not. It seems to be trying to force similarities by bending the definitions to fit very different actions, such as those taken by an SP would be from an NF.

You're on to something here. Someone who leads with Ni and then uses Se is going to approach life differently than someone who uses Se to get info and then Ni to extrapolate from there. NJs seem to start with a goal in mind, and once they've decided what they want, they look around them (tertiary Se) to get the lay of the land and see what has to change. I start with the present in mind and see where all the options might lead me and which ones I like or should avoid.

When Ni follows from Se, it feels like I'm receiving an alert about the current situation, like hearing a traffic report of a tie up on the bridge ahead. Better take an alternate route! But when Ni is unattached to anything it feels spooky and spectral. It feels like a dark premonition that is too vague to do anything about. It's that shiver I get up my back sometimes.

 

[MonkeyGrass]

Foresight, definitely.

I'm a childbirth support person, and if I didn't walk into the room with a good sense of how the client might react behave in certain birth scenarios, and have a good bag of tricks prepared, the whole point of my being there (comfort, relaxation, reassurance) would be blown all to hell. I rely heavily on my ability to stay one step ahead of the challenges of a hormonal woman in labor, and am there to MEET her with solutions when she reaches a dead end, rather than being surprised and having to regroup in the moment.

As a parent of really smart munchkins, the ability to stay one step ahead of how things will likely play out is invaluable.