Explain islam and how it intermixes with the bible

[ChocolateMoose123]

[MENTION=20790]Zangetshumody[/MENTION]

It might be quite difficult for me to respond to you without there being a divergence because of our cross-purposes. From how you describe the Christian doctrine, I take a quite a nuanced stand on what you seem to understand by the meaning of "Christianity", and so its difficult for me to answer your question directly without thinking you will relate it to something different to what I mean.

I am taking this in objectively.

Realize that there I am using Christianity as an umbrella term for emcompassing Protestant religions. Christians belief Jesus was the son of God. A savior.

Not all religions think this and while some Protestant religions believe in this, there are sects within that umbrella term that carry nuance to that belief.

But Christianity and the differences within could be a thread of its own. As I am sure the same thing can be said for Islam. So, I use it for brevity but miscommunication may ensue because of broader strokes being presented.

While I try to stay clear of it, it is difficult due to the nature of the discussion.

Judiasm, Catholicsm, Islam don't fall under "Christian" faith.

I see commonalities that overlap. Especially with Judaism, Islam and Old Testament in the Bible but I am aware of the differences.

I am enjoying seeing the similarities and look forward to learning further and finite distinctions.

 

[Mole]

Judiasm, Catholicsm, Islam don't fall under "Christian" faith.

To say that Catholicism is not Christian is simply bigotry.

 

[Thalassa]

[MENTION=20790]Zangetshumody[/MENTION]

I am taking this in objectively.

Realize that there I am using Christianity as an umbrella term for emcompassing Protestant religions. Christians belief Jesus was the son of God. A savior.

Not all religions think this and while some Protestant religions believe in this, there are sects within that umbrella term that carry nuance to that belief.

But Christianity and the differences within could be a thread of its own. As I am sure the same thing can be said for Islam. So, I use it for brevity but miscommunication may ensue because of broader strokes being presented.

While I try to stay clear of it, it is difficult due to the nature of the discussion.

Judiasm, Catholicsm , Islam don't fall under "Christian" faith.

I see commonalities that overlap. Especially with Judaism, Islam and Old Testament in the Bible but I am aware of the differences.

I am enjoying seeing the similarities and look forward to learning further and finite distinctions.

What?

Pope Francis lIves as an example of Christ, and so did Mother Teresa. The RCC helps more people in poverty world wide than any other organization, including Protestant and liberal secular establishments. Even if you don't agree with some aspects of Catholic ritual or history, to say Catholics aren't Christian really doesn't ring true in any sense at all. Usually only the most ignorant of fundamentalist Protestants make such a claim, since they don't like the more erudite, scholarly interpretation of the Bible because it's not literal.

 

[ChocolateMoose123]

To say that Catholicism is not Christian is simply bigotry.

I'm not going to turn this thread into one about Christianity and the definitions therein. I realize that Catholicsm not being included in the category of "Christianity" is under debate.

I personally don't care too much about these definitions that make people so worked up, so have at the debate.

No offense was meant. It deserves it's own thread, perhaps.

[MENTION=6877]Thalassa[/MENTION], too.

 

[Mole]

I'm not going to turn this thread into one about Christianity and the definitions therein. I realize that Catholicsm not being included in the category of "Christianity" is under debate.

I personally don't care too much about these definitions that make people so worked up, so have at the debate.

No offense was meant. It deserves it's own thread, perhaps.

[MENTION=6877]Thalassa[/MENTION], too.

What is interesting is that you take bigotry for granted. This is only possible if you live in an environment of bigotry, and naturally you mistake your local environment for the whole world.

 

[ChocolateMoose123]

What is interesting is that you take bigotry for granted. This is only possible if you live in an environment of bigotry, and naturally you mistake your local environment for the whole world.

I'm just trying to understand Islam and Christianity, and that is hard enough. I'm bound to piss someone off somewhere inadvertenly in that attempt.

To me, I don't care. I don't consider Catholics to be worse/better? I mean, no religion is to me. But yeah.

Anyway...going forward I am not an expert of Theology. I am seeking to understand. Apologies for any adverse reactions to what I state.

I am in no way considering myself the last word on anything deemed holy.

Apologies to everyone offended and future offenses I may commit.

 

[Thalassa]

A lot of people believe that Allah and Yahweh are the same God. Much of the differences in these two books lies in language and the meaning behind the words. You can start by researching why one is called Allah, cont. al-ab, and Yahweh, some would even throw YHWH in the mix.

The major difference between Islam and Christianity is in the role that Jesus and Muhammad play. Both faiths believe Allah and Yahweh to be omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent but they do not agree that Jesus is the Son of God. In Islam, Muhammad, who is called the last prophet, is credited for uniting Arabs under one god. In Christianity, Jesus, who is called The Lamb - Son of God, is credited for His sacrifice that ransomed all the Jews and gentiles, the Resurrection trhough the eventual arrival of the Holy Spirit (which Islam does not embrace as a distinct Person).

Islam - no trinity.
Christianity - Holy Trinity (God the Father, God the Son, God the Spirit).

Because Christ died for all, there is a new law called grace that His believers live by. No work is enough to merit salvation in Christianity, theoretically. There will always be differences in how people practice.

Because Islam and Judaism do not believe in a triune god, no sacrifice can be enough to merit salvation through grace. Which means that Jesus, although respected in Islam, cannot ever play the same role He plays in Christianity in which He is considered the true cornerstone of the Church and the Savior of man.

Muhammad only united Arabs, Jesus united the world "there is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female." Jesus was a loving, inclusive pacificist, who was either celibate or monogamous depending on if you ask a Gnostic or other Christians...Muhammad was a polygamous war lord who objectified women. The only thing they really have in common is cultural roots in Judaism.

 

[Beorn]

Limits certainly do matter. Who, in your estimation, has enough wisdom or authority to place limits on god? I would not presume to do it.

You're the only one "placing limits on god."

You're limiting his ability to reveal himself and you're claiming he can't have the attribute of knowability.

I'm not "doing" anything to God.
I just believe what he reveals to me.

God is what god is, irrespective of whatever anyone believes about him/her/it. Our beliefs do not change god's reality.

Agreed.

 

[Beorn]

What religion does God do evil?

You never read greek myths?

 

[Thalassa]

Your Most High and Mighty, you started the conversation with this when Krista explained basic Christian doctrine:



Limits matter. They define what something is and is not.
It's as true for a piece of wood as it is for God himself.
I personally am quite happy that my God can do no evil, but if you don't want to limit your god to that incapability then I guess that's up to you.

Yes one of the scarier aspects of Islam is not only Muhammad's violence and attitude towards followers to "do as I say, not as I do" is that they believe in a duplicitous, tricky God. The way Muhammad and Allah are described strike me as more similar to Satanism, than either Judaism or Christianity. The Quran also gets progressively worse, while the Christian Bible "evolves" away from violence and exclusion, the Quran seems to devolve, as Muhammad slowly lost his mind. Always remember he, in the beginning, wasn't even sure he was a prophet, but thought he might be possessed by the devil. I'm just floored when liberal apologists try to say they're exactly alike. Sure, both have roots in Judaism and Abraham, but even Satan can recite scripture.

 

[Thalassa]

There is nothing that cannot be explained without namecalling. There has been far too much of that hereabouts.


My response was aimed largely at the nature and utility of the question itself.


This is my point, that the real disagreement is over those particulars of how they practice their faith and what they believe is the nature of God. Examination of their respective doctrines on a fundamental level leads inescapably to the conclusion that the god they believe in is one and the same, even if the average believer does not recognize that.


Limits certainly do matter. Who, in your estimation, has enough wisdom or authority to place limits on god? I would not presume to do it.

How do you know that "your god" can do no evil? What is evil anyway?

God is what god is, irrespective of whatever anyone believes about him/her/it. Our beliefs do not change god's reality.

God is love. The Bible repeatedly tells us God is love, above all else, and this began in the Old Testament. Any religion which contradicts God being love, wholeness, oneness, inclusion, is not compatible with the Christian faith.

This means that we can love people of other faiths, and include them, but it does not mean we all worship "the same God" if they worship a god of duplicity and evil, pointless acts. The word evil can effectively be defined as an absence of God, so by the qualifier, no God could not do evil.

 

[Snickie]

*late*
[MENTION=28239]Joshuamonkey[/MENTION] is LDS. He might be able to explain more about the Mormon doctrine.

I have nothing to contribute to this discussion except for the fact that the Muslim endtimes takes a completely different stance on Revelation than does Christianity. At least, according to an hour-long sermon video that my highly devout and studious Christian friend has shown me. Maybe I'll look for it and post it here sometime.

(One of these days I might read the whole thread.)

 

[Thalassa]

Yes one of the scarier aspects of Islam is not only Muhammad's violence and attitude towards followers to "do as I say, not as I do" is that they believe in a duplicitous, tricky God. The way Muhammad and Allah are described strike me as more similar to Satanism, than either Judaism or Christianity. The Quran also gets progressively worse, while the Christian Bible "evolves" away from violence and exclusion, the Quran seems to devolve, as Muhammad slowly lost his mind. Always remember he, in the beginning, wasn't even sure he was a prophet, but thought he might be possessed by the devil. I'm just floored when liberal apologists try to say they're exactly alike. Sure, both have roots in Judaism and Abraham, but even Satan can recite scripture.

I don't know if these groups fall under the same title. I'm sure some would argue they do and more would argue that they don't.

I chose to omit nontrinitarianism (as well as bitrinitarism, inter religious, etc.) for the simple fact that most Bible scholars would argue that the Bible supports the trinity, at the very least the idea that Jesus and Yahweh are part of the Godhead, and it is one of the most profound differences between Christianity and Islam. They both revere Jesus but His role is drastically different and I think that's important to highlight. So I did excuse nontrinitarianism for the sake of the OP's question but acknowledged that there is room for differences for practicing Christians.

It's really impossible to compromise the two and actually be a Christian. I'm not saying it's impossible to be a Christian who tolerates, or even loves individual Muslims, but there is absolutely no reconciliation with a religion which claims Jesus wasn't really crucified but Allah had someone stand in, and thereby deceived all believers of Christianity.

Some individual Muslims are very nice people, but so were some members of the Jim Jones cult.

Christianity in no way, shape or form contradicts nor insults Judaism (Jesus came to fulfill the law), but Islam repeatedly twists, insults and mocks Christianity in order to justify its own existence.

 

[ChocolateMoose123]

It's really impossible to compromise the two and actually be a Christian. I'm not saying it's impossible to be a Christian who tolerates, or even loves individual Muslims, but there is absolutely no reconciliation with a religion which claims Jesus wasn't really crucified but Allah had someone stand in, and thereby deceived all believers of Christianity.

Some individual Muslims are very nice people, but so were some members of the Jim Jones cult.

Christianity in no way, shape or form contradicts nor insults Judaism (Jesus came to fulfill the law), but Islam repeatedly twists, insults and mocks Christianity in order to justify its own existence.

I'm just in the beginning parts of the Qur'an. Is the bolded there? I haven't gotten that far. I'm going fairly slow and comparing with the Bible.

So far, I see a split at Abraham lineage with Ishmael tribe becoming Islam. I do see Isaac, Jacob and Decendants mentioned but don't know whether or not/how Muslims see or view Isaac and Jacob. If that differs from Biblical versions. Haven't gotten enough info on that yet.

Biblically, this coincides with Abraham's wife Sarah growing impatient with being blessed with a child (what would be Isaac, ----> David ---> Jesus lineage) and so she gave her handmaiden Hagar to Abraham to have a child and (Ishmael) was born. Sarah was jealous and Hagar with child fled. An angel found her in the desert and said Genesis 16...

"I will multiply thy seed exceedingly, that it shall not be numbered for multitude.

11 And the angel of the Lord said unto her, Behold, thou art with child and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the Lord hath heard thy affliction.

12 And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.

13 And she called the name of the Lord that spake unto her, Thou God seest me: for she said, Have I also here looked after him that seeth me?"

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis 16

So I see what [MENTION=21836]Also[/MENTION] was saying about "the same God" up to this point.

I know this is common knowledge to many but I want to see for myself rather than take anothers word. Interesting stuff.

 

[KingOfTheRoad]

God is love.

God is love.

The word evil can effectively be defined as an absence of God, so by the qualifier, no God could not do evil.

Yes, and hell is the absence of God. For perpetual victims who despise God, despite how they feel, their soul is still eternal, and they have a choice to be with or without God; hell is where they'd prefer to be. Think about their life in this life... full of addiction, failure, or prideful successes... brief and fleeting.. they don't need God... they don't desire to spend eternity praising the God of Love with the angels, do they?... never. So, "the gates of hell are locked from the inside" (~C.S. Lewis). And the godless keep the almighty God of forgiveness, the one true God of grace and love, the almighty creator, Jesus Christ, the Son of Man, the almighty healer locked out for eternity... God has so many beautiful names. When the enemy comes in, in the end, he's gonna finish them off and he's gonna relish every minute of it. Jesus was beaten to a pulp and died so that we would live... an example of True Love. Why would anyone choose Godlessness?

Through the Holy Spirit, as little lambs we go in this world with the faces of lions! Our God mocks all the powers of earth and hell through fluffy little lambs like us. He is in control. And even though we look weak physically, spiritually, we are strong. The consuming, sovereign God almighty dwells within His children.

 

[geedoenfj]

I'm just in the beginning parts of the Qur'an. Is the bolded there? I haven't gotten that far. I'm going fairly slow and comparing with the Bible.

So far, I see a split at Abraham lineage with Ishmael tribe becoming Islam. I do see Isaac, Jacob and Decendants mentioned but don't know whether or not/how Muslims see or view Isaac and Jacob. If that differs from Biblical versions. Haven't gotten enough info on that yet.

Biblically, this coincides with Abraham's wife Sarah growing impatient with being blessed with a child (what would be Isaac, ----> David ---> Jesus lineage) and so she gave her handmaiden Hagar to Abraham to have a child and (Ishmael) was born. Sarah was jealous and Hagar with child fled. An angel found her in the desert and said Genesis 16...

"I will multiply thy seed exceedingly, that it shall not be numbered for multitude.

11 And the angel of the Lord said unto her, Behold, thou art with child and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the Lord hath heard thy affliction.

12 And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.

13 And she called the name of the Lord that spake unto her, Thou God seest me: for she said, Have I also here looked after him that seeth me?"

Genesis 16 - Hagar and Ishmael - Now Sarai, - Bible Gateway

So I see what [MENTION=21836]Also[/MENTION] was saying about "the same God" up to this point.

I know this is common knowledge to many but I want to see for myself rather than take anothers word. Interesting stuff.

Well there are parts that were not mentioned in Quraan such as Hager dispised Sara when she got pregnant, with Ishmael or an angel told her to go back to Sara and submit to her..
However I will tell the Quraan version of the story and it is very short, there were no details about Sara and Hargar relationship, but basically after when Hagar gave birth to Ishmael, God commanded Ibraham to take Hagar and Ishmael to the desert and leave them there, he submitted to his will and prayed for the Lord: "Oh our Lord, surely I have settled a part of my offspring in a valley unproductive of fruits near Thy Sacred House, our Lord! That they may keep up prayers, therefore, make hearts of some people yearn towards them and provide them with fruits, haply they may be grateful" Ibraham Surah, v No. 37
Hagar submitted and was left there in the middle of the desert with her baby, Ishmael as any baby was crying out for hunger because his mother run out of milk, there was no water or food and she repeatedly climbed up- gotten down of two mountains in a hope to see some water or oasis nearby but there's non, meanwhile the baby was non stop crying and was flinging his feet on the earth, it wasn't so long until some water came out from under his feet, she started digging into it and there was more water, she and her son drunk some of it, and eventually when birds saw the water they started heading to that place, beduins noticed the birds and started heading to that place too, over time, some tribes came and lived by that waterwell, that's the place is today called "Mecca" and the waterwell is "zamzam"
Isaac is a prophet mentioned in Quraan too, he was born just when his parents were in despair, angels came to Ibraham in a form of humans and told him that his wife will be pregnant with Isaac, he's described in Quraan as " the man with enormous knowledge" I hope I give the right translation, his son is prophet Jacob the father of prophet Joseph (peace be upon all of them)
We believe that Sara and Hagar are both good women and highly respected by Muslims, some Islamic resources said that Sara was jelous of Hagar and didn't want to hate her, that's why she told Ibraham to keep Hagar away from her..
So this is it, and I will tell the story of Mohammed in the next post as I saw an earlier post that told a twisted version of the story that I never heard of, and definitely not true..

 

[Mole]

Christianity in no way, shape or form contradicts nor insults Judaism

Except for 2,000 years Christianity has called Jews Christ killers, culminating in the holocaust.

 

[Thalassa]

I'm just in the beginning parts of the Qur'an. Is the bolded there? I haven't gotten that far. I'm going fairly slow and comparing with the Bible.

So far, I see a split at Abraham lineage with Ishmael tribe becoming Islam. I do see Isaac, Jacob and Decendants mentioned but don't know whether or not/how Muslims see or view Isaac and Jacob. If that differs from Biblical versions. Haven't gotten enough info on that yet.

Biblically, this coincides with Abraham's wife Sarah growing impatient with being blessed with a child (what would be Isaac, ----> David ---> Jesus lineage) and so she gave her handmaiden Hagar to Abraham to have a child and (Ishmael) was born. Sarah was jealous and Hagar with child fled. An angel found her in the desert and said Genesis 16...

"I will multiply thy seed exceedingly, that it shall not be numbered for multitude.

11 And the angel of the Lord said unto her, Behold, thou art with child and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the Lord hath heard thy affliction.

12 And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.

13 And she called the name of the Lord that spake unto her, Thou God seest me: for she said, Have I also here looked after him that seeth me?"

Genesis 16 - Hagar and Ishmael - Now Sarai, - Bible Gateway

So I see what [MENTION=21836]Also[/MENTION] was saying about "the same God" up to this point.

I know this is common knowledge to many but I want to see for myself rather than take anothers word. Interesting stuff.

The most common argument against this is that the Quran was written long after the Torah and the New Testament, and had many inconsistencies, one of the most glaring not being about Jesus, though there are many, but about Ishmael. My entire impression of the Quran is that Muhammad found religious texts interesting then just made up his own versions of the stories to his liking.

To back that up, just contemplate the fact that Muslims claim any inconsistencies in their version as Jews changing things after the fact, Christians being tricked, etc ...so he essentially calls BOTH GROUPS liars, even though his original source was clearly the Torah and Bible, both put together before he was even thought of. How exactly is Muhammad, one man, the person who wrote the only correct version, when the Bible was written by many people over many years, centuries before Islam existed.

This is compounded by Muhammad claiming only to be a prophet, so he this one prophet, trumps all the other Jewish prophets and Christian disciples before him. The Quaran also has no linear quality like the Bible. Just think about all that.

 

[Poki]

Are these other books not studied, dismissed or just not given as much emphasis as Qur'an is (in Islamic faith)?

I dont think they are given much thought, but i dont know enough about the culture so i may be way off. Kinda like...if its the truth i dont really need to dig in further. This give me everything i need to know kinda thing. Hopefully more can answer that have better insight, pulling things outta my ass at this point....possibilities.

 

[ChocolateMoose123]

The most common argument against this is that the Quran was written long after the Torah and the New Testament, and had many inconsistencies, one of the most glaring not being about Jesus, though there are many, but about Ishmael. My entire impression of the Quran is that Muhammad found religious texts interesting then just made up his own versions of the stories to his liking.

To back that up, just contemplate the fact that Muslims claim any inconsistencies in their version as Jews changing things after the fact, Christians being tricked, etc ...so he essentially calls BOTH GROUPS liars, even though his original source was clearly the Torah and Bible, both put together before he was even thought of. How exactly is Muhammad, one man, the person who wrote the only correct version, when the Bible was written by many people over many years, centuries before Islam existed.

This is compounded by Muhammad claiming only to be a prophet, so he this one prophet, trumps all the other Jewish prophets and Christian disciples before him. The Quaran also has no linear quality like the Bible. Just think about all that.

This is something I will bookmark and look into.

Although, from what I see the beginning of Ishmael is same in Qur'an as in the Bible.

As I gave Bible verses and I can give simlar verses in Qur'an for what I posted if you wish me too.

I have yet to see past what I posted - I am still learning that. I will post scripture of both were commonalities lie, as well as differences. I think that is fair.

I have read the Bible a few times, and to my (limited) knowledge it doesn't mention Muslims as being a unified faith. If I am wrong, I would appreciate someone bringing it to my attention. "Arabs" are mentioned.

I have a *feeling* that major discrepancy will come at New Testament for Biblical reference. That is why I am curious about Injil. Since that is Jesus book in Islam. How they differ. How they are similar.


Again, it has been a while since reading. I may be missing something.

I am spiderwebbing a lot of info here while studying. It's fascinating.