[ESTJ] ESTJ Father, looking for your opinions.

[Giggly]

SJ's believe they are being straightforward with their demands and they do not understand the subtle complexities of how others might misinterpret them, or the value of different options.To an N this is "missing the forest for the trees." There is no such thing as an "exact" interpretation of anything. Life is not black and white, but it seems that SJ's believe that it can and should be.

My experience with the only ESTJ I know is that if the ESTJ doesn't respect you in the same way that they respect themselves, then forget it, you're not getting anywhere with them, just throw in the towel, surrender, you're toast. I had hoped that all ESTJs aren't like this (thank you, EJCC for being awesome ) and am hoping to meet more in the future. Are ENTJs like this?

ISTJs seem to be a little bit more movable even though you'll have to fight for it, but aside from my Dad (who is great), I don't have many close interactions with them.

edit: oh wait, there's my old boss who is ISTJ, who I still talk to. He's great too. He's just like my dad... you have to work to convince him of something (which can be quite exhausting) but once you do, he's on board for good. sorry, I'm rambling now.

 

[IZthe411]

it is a shame about these sorts of miscommunications...like you say n's try to read into what is said but we don't try at all...we can't help but hear you that way...because we speak that way...our brain works that way. we often speak in metaphors...trying to paint the picture for you so that you might be able to interpret it as accurately as possible...like the picture will be felt as strongly as a memory...because words alone can so often be misunderstood....ha...it's an odd thing that but truly know that it's not intended...our brains our just wired differently.

Nicely put there.

It's funny, but I guess the opposite emphasis is used by the S. We believe that words can be misunderstood, that's why so much emphasis is using the best words to plainly state situation so that no misinterpretation occurs.

 

[Lady_X]

yes i'm sure that is true...so if we can just teach ourselves to stop and listen to the exact words in much the same way that we read traffic signs haha it is not okay it might be a good idea to stop if you think that you might run into someone otherwise..it's just stop haha

 

[bcubchgo]

My experience with the only ESTJ I know is that if the ESTJ doesn't respect you in the same way that they respect themselves, then forget it, you're not getting anywhere with them, just throw in the towel, surrender, you're toast. I had hoped that all ESTJs aren't like this (thank you, EJCC for being awesome ) and am hoping to meet more in the future. Are ENTJs like this?

I think the caveat is whether or not you are trying to "accomplish" something with an ENTJ. If you are working together on a goal - then watch out because we can dig in our heels as much as any ESTJ. I would say that this is because we believe we have proven track records to back ourselves up with. However, in almost all other respects I think that when "dealing" socially with an ENTJ you are less likely to encounter an immovable wall, like with ESTJ. This is mostly because we (like other N's) enjoy connecting the dots in a variety of ways and don't like to immediately discount things unless they pose a challenge to our success. When you challenge us, we are more likely to subvert your demands through other measures instead of duke it out. It's like playing chess - you make gingerly moves until you are threatened. Then it's all out war.

 

[FDG]

I have completely given up to the thought of having any form of relationship with an ESTJ. In a matter of days we'll be either at each other's troath (the best possible case), or secretly hating each other (worst possible case). I'm thankful my family has no ESTJ member, otherwise every reunion would end in a fist-fight.

Btw, some of the responses here make me sick...if someone wants you to "prove" to them that you're competent, you shouldn't give up to their "demands". Let them be damned for their own lack of trust, and shout at them you don't need to prove anything. Otherwise you'll end up being their psychological slave.

(btw I don't have this problem with other SJs - in fact I don't have this problem with any other type. Perhaps it's due to shared Te base but different auxiliary)

 

[IZthe411]

yes i'm sure that is true...so if we can just teach ourselves to stop and listen to the exact words in much the same way that we read traffic signs haha it is not okay it might be a good idea to stop if you think that you might run into someone otherwise..it's just stop haha

LOL Pretty much...
Or otherwise I'll carry around shape and sign cards to bring home my point.

 

[EJCC]

SJ's believe they are being straightforward with their demands and they do not understand the subtle complexities of how others might misinterpret them, or the value of different options.

The bolded is a HUGE leap. The non-bolded makes sense -- I mean, SJs are such straightforward and honest people that can we help but assume that people will hear "i don't like this" when we say "i don't like this"? -- but unless I'm totally misunderstanding the bolded, it's completely wrong. Of course SJs value different options! SJs can appreciate creativity. SJs can BE CREATIVE. SJs can be the ones MAKING the different options.

To an N this is "missing the forest for the trees." There is no such thing as an "exact" interpretation of anything. Life is not black and white, but it seems that SJ's believe that it can and should be.

Then how do you propose that anyone presume to understand anyone else? SJs operate as if things are in black and white because if we operated as if nothing could ever be decided, then nothing could ever get done. Also, everyone sees SOME things as being black and white. It's human nature.

My experience with the only ESTJ I know is that if the ESTJ doesn't respect you in the same way that they respect themselves, then forget it, you're not getting anywhere with them, just throw in the towel, surrender, you're toast. I had hoped that all ESTJs aren't like this (thank you, EJCC for being awesome ) and am hoping to meet more in the future.

Thanks! Actually, I'd almost argue that most ESTJs are still like this, but what separates the nice ones from the mean ones is what it takes to lose their respect. In my case, it takes a lot; I treat everyone with respect until they prove to me that they don't deserve it by being an infuriating and/or horrible person with few redeeming qualities. Also, if I knew that there would be few consequences, if I didn't hide any of my frustration with them, i.e. if I didn't repress any of my distaste for the sake of appearing polite.

 

[wildcat]

Necro.

Although I am sure the original poster would like your responses, you can see the thread is more than 3 years old.

please understand me. Did you read him?
He had barely arrived. And left forthwith.

 

[Giggly]

Thanks! Actually, I'd almost argue that most ESTJs are still like this, but what separates the nice ones from the mean ones is what it takes to lose their respect. In my case, it takes a lot; I treat everyone with respect until they prove to me that they don't deserve it by being an infuriating and/or horrible person with few redeeming qualities. Also, if I knew that there would be few consequences, if I didn't hide any of my frustration with them, i.e. if I didn't repress any of my distaste for the sake of appearing polite.

This is good to know. Thank you!

 

[FDG]

Plenty of people don't see things as black and white yet still manage to get things done. Saying otherwise is shows a really extreme version of black-and-white thinking.

 

[bcubchgo]

Stuff

1 - You may see it as a huge leap, but there are plenty of N's that view your "types" version of the world as obstinate. In terms of generalities, I don't see a lot of pure creativity emerging from STJ's. It's just not their strength. That's all I will say about this for the moment.

2- XSTJ: "I'm right until proven wrong". Most N's don't operate this way - especially people with a high "N" quotient. They are way too aware of the "inconsistencies" of this kind of thought, and are always second guessing themselves because they come across new data. Which is why we always try to make an "educated" guess about things that are uncertain instead of rely on proven techniques. I'm not saying you can understand anyone else. Everything involves uncertainty, but uncertainty is something an STJ does not like, which is why they attempt to apply binary thinking to life. If you are an ESTJ that does not behaves this way, then you are an unusual ESTJ. More often than not your type behaves this way. To answer your question: things "get done" in an "N" world by attempting to find a "gray zone" that is optimized. The decisions that are made are open-ended conclusions, even for an ENTJ - which is why an ENTJ is good at creating order out of chaos, while an ESTJ is good at using established techniques to create stability.

 

[IZthe411]

1 - You may see it as a huge leap, but there are plenty of N's that view your "types" version of the world as obstinate. In terms of generalities, I don't see a lot of pure creativity emerging from STJ's. It's just not their strength. That's all I will say about this for the moment.

2- XSTJ: "I'm right until proven wrong". Most N's don't operate this way - especially people with a high "N" quotient. They are way too aware of the "inconsistencies" of this kind of thought, and are always second guessing themselves because they come across new data. Which is why we always try to make an "educated" guess about things that are uncertain instead of rely on proven techniques. I'm not saying you can understand anyone else. Everything involves uncertainty, but uncertainty is something an STJ does not like, which is why they attempt to apply binary thinking to life. If you are an ESTJ that does not behaves this way, then you are an unusual ESTJ. More often than not your type behaves this way. To answer your question: things "get done" in an "N" world by attempting to find a "gray zone" that is optimized. The decisions that are made are open-ended conclusions, even for an ENTJ - which is why an ENTJ is good at creating order out of chaos, while an ESTJ is good at using established techniques to create stability.

I don't disagree here with what you're saying here, but I think it's possible for an STJ to not subscribe to absolutes. Maybe it comes across that way, maybe it's explained that way because of poor word choice, but STJs are as good as their Si. If they don't have a depth of experiences to draw from, they are likely to subscribe to the black/white way of thinking. Otherwise, while they have a strong connection to their 'way', they are willing to consider, even try others' way and generally let them do 'them'. At least this is how I see it, as my Si has taught me that there are thousands of way to approach life, and am generally open to other approaches, as long as it's not encroaching on my values (Fi).

 

[EJCC]

1 - You may see it as a huge leap, but there are plenty of N's that view your "types" version of the world as obstinate. In terms of generalities, I don't see a lot of pure creativity emerging from STJ's. It's just not their strength. That's all I will say about this for the moment.

Ah, that trap -- "My blanket statement is excusable because lots of people agree with it". I would argue that in a lot of ways, Ni types are much more obstinate than SJs. I got into a long conversation with several INFJs about how they were definitely more stubborn than SJs (because SJs will change their minds immediately when presented with good evidence to the contrary, whereas it takes even more than that to convince an INFJ), and they agreed with me entirely.

I will agree with you, though, that SJ creativity isn't usually the type of creativity that is unrelated to artistic precedent. We can still be very creative people, but usually by improving established things, instead of making new ones.

2- XSTJ: "I'm right until proven wrong". Most N's don't operate this way - especially people with a high "N" quotient.

Every single ENFP I know operates this way, for the record, regardless of their "N quotient". INFPs, too, can be the same way -- making very strong opinionated statements only to completely reverse their seemingly cemented opinion when presented with good opposing evidence.

Which is why we always try to make an "educated" guess about things that are uncertain instead of rely on proven techniques.

I don't know where the "instead of" came from, here. Those things are not mutually exclusive. I would argue that they don't even link to each other that much. SJs make educated guesses every day -- they just don't usually call them that.

To answer your question: things "get done" in an "N" world by attempting to find a "gray zone" that is optimized. The decisions that are made are open-ended conclusions, even for an ENTJ - which is why an ENTJ is good at creating order out of chaos, while an ESTJ is good at using established techniques to create stability.

I appreciate this answer -- thank you. But I would argue that ESTJs optimize that "gray zone" in literally exactly the same way as the ENTJ, with the only difference being that the philosophical aspect is implied.

ENTJ: There is no perfect solution, so I'll use this one, because it's better than the others.
ESTJ: I'll use this one, because it's better than the others.

It's almost exactly the same thing. In fact, if you ever get an ESTJ into a philosophical debate, they will agree with you that nothing is certain. They know that as well as anyone. They just don't enjoy thinking about it, like you do. That's how I see it.

EDIT:

I don't disagree here with what you're saying here, but I think it's possible for an STJ to not subscribe to absolutes. Maybe it comes across that way, maybe it's explained that way because of poor word choice, but STJs are as good as their Si. If they don't have a depth of experiences to draw from, they are likely to subscribe to the black/white way of thinking. Otherwise, while they have a strong connection to their 'way', they are willing to consider, even try others' way and generally let them do 'them'. At least this is how I see it, as my Si has taught me that there are thousands of way to approach life, and am generally open to other approaches, as long as it's not encroaching on my values (Fi).

This is totally true.

 

[EJCC]

Plenty of people don't see things as black and white yet still manage to get things done. Saying otherwise is shows a really extreme version of black-and-white thinking.

Sorry about that phrasing, then.

Firstly, operating under the presumption that things are black and white is different from actually believing it. (See the above post for more detail on that point.)

Secondly, I was raised with an INTP dad, and when he got bogged down into the nothing-is-certain mindset, he would pretty much lose his ability to decide on solutions. In the words of teamtechnology.co.uk, he would start "finding too many flaws, and not accepting imperfect but 'good enough' solutions". That's where my comment was coming from.

I also felt, when I was writing that post, that in order to accomplish things, you would have to act under the false presumption that things are certain -- like the idea that the solution you're choosing is better than the others. Because if you didn't think it was better, then which solution would you choose? What criteria would you choose, if no criteria were certain?

Even people who don't see things in black and white (and this includes me, btw) agree that some things are "better" and "worse". And our opinions on better and worse can be very strong, and hard to argue about -- regardless of MBTI type.

 

[Lady_X]

^^ really glad to have you here posting...really informative.
and i know what you mean about enfps appearing to operate that way as well....it's the te. in order to move forward with action we have to stand firm behind the decision in much the same way you described...otherwise we'd just never make any decisions.

 

[Sunshiney]

First off I would like to say that I am very new to this stuff, but would love to hear your opinions. I am an ENFP, my mother is an INFJ and my father is an ESTJ. My mother and I connect on so many levels and I can safely say that she is my best friend. My father on the other hand drives me nuts. Anytime we talk, just a simple conversation, we end up at each others necks with my mother breaking it up. He has an air of I am always right and everyone else is wrong, and so on. He loves to play the blame game, and anything that has gone wrong is always someone else's fault. The man is a genius and he is a clean cut guy, and I am very proud to have him as a father, but I just don’t get him. He is either seriously emotionally detached or has some deeply buried feelings somewhere. He is insensitive when he speaks to people and says it like it is. The only way to earn respect from him is to have achieved high social status in life. That is the one of the reasons I went to medical school. It seems like he has this recipe in his head for what a man should be but I am never good enough to fit it.

What are your thoughts on this relationship, I love the man, but he makes me want to tear my own eyeballs out with a spoon. Oh, I am 21 by the way.

(am i reviving a dead thread? i really hope not. i just NEED to comment on this behaviour)
I teared up at this. I have an ESTJ dad and he's exactly like that, maybe even worse. He has gotten violent with me before. He literally, honest to god thinks he...well...is god. I try having a friendly debate and it turns into him screaming at me and my ESFP mom trying to break it up, only for her to get yelled at, too. I am relating to you on so many levels, even though I'm quite younger (I'm 15 going on 16). Does your dad also throw a temper tantrum when he doesn't get his way? OR when my mom isn't in the kitchen? I'm sorry, I forgot to mention my dad is also sexist, homophobic, and racist. Fan-f***ing-tastic.
This is just coming from someone who has the same kind of father. I'd say to not hang around him too long, or else things could take the turn for the worst. And pretty quickly. I recommend short phonecalls and quick visits until he calms the crap down and looks at his life and his choices. I understand I do not know him, but we both know his type. And alhough all of us never top growing up, some just....I hate to bring the T out in me but, some of us just seriously need to step back and realize how much in the wrong we are.

Extremely immature xSTJs are the absolute reason we cannot and will not ever have nice things that last more than a day.

 

[EJCC]

[MENTION=14116]Sunshiney[/MENTION]: I'm sorry to say that, although I know that he would be comforted by your post, the person who wrote the OP wrote it three years ago. Since then, the OP-writer has (I think?) left the forum.

There's no way I can presume to know what it would be like to have a father like that, terrorizing the household, but it definitely sounds like a tough time. At least you'll be out of the house soon (presumably? after high school graduation?), and will be able to free yourself from close proximity to him.

Back on the topic of ESTJ-ness, relating to your post: What you are experiencing with your father is not type-related. Your father is abusive. ESTJs are not by nature abusive. They are not more likely to be abusive than other types. Type is not relevant here. Actually, if he acts like that all the time, it would be hard to know what type he really is, because nothing in that behavior says anything except "he has issues". The sexism/racism/traditionalism/conservatism don't necessarily mean ESTJ (look at my avatar! not so traditional or conservative).

 

[Sunshiney]

Ah, sorry I didn't realize they aren't here. And yes, SOON. Maybe not soon enough considering I was held back entirely, and am still a freshman (thanks to bullying)

You do make a good point with all of that. Although I have had him take it twice and he came up with ESTJ both times. I understand that certainly not all ESTJs act like he does. Just because someone shares the same MBTI, doesn't mean they act the same. Yes, he does have some serious issues. But he thinks counseling/therapy/even aerobics is BS. It's really irritating to have him badmouth something I'd like to become and have him say "self-esteem is for losers". Those exact words... Yeah well at least I'll be helping people while you sit on your fat butt and scream obscenities at the telly.

Sorry for making it seem like I thought it was ESTJ related. I'm absolutely terrible with words, online and in real life.

 

[Moxiest]

My mom is ESTJ... scary woman. Even family doesn't cross her... ever. She'll contact every one you know and try and turn them against you. The kind of person who, if you show her a wound, gets vinegar, pours it in, then grabs a spoon and starts digging at it. I had an ESTJ friend who did something similar, thus ending our friendship. The best thing I can do is either keep my distance, and not bare even the slightest bit of my heart to them, or put on chainmail before trying to get "close" (I mean, I have a SJ for a mother... she may be mean, but she's still my mom...) I hate that it has to be this way... but, really, it just does. It's sad that it's so hard for NF's and SJ's to relate, because we are both "social cooperators" of sorts... We just have such a different way of viewing/valueing/reacting to people/situations... :/

 

[EJCC]

I think I have to unsubscribe from this thread now.

I just said a post ago: Not all ESTJs are abusive, and abusiveness is not linked to ESTJ-ness. And it's also worth saying that SJs and NFs can communicate just fine once they understand where the other is coming from. I have tons of NF friends and my mom (who I'm very close to) is an NF, and therefore we have few communication problems, since I've gotten used to then and how their minds work. SPs, on the other hand, I have a very hard time understanding, since I don't have many SP friends and I never really have.

Don't get me wrong; your situation does suck. I am so sorry your mom is that way, and that your friend did that to you. But every time someone says something on this forum that suggests that all ESTJs are horrible people, I feel like I have to make a comment and say otherwise. This is the problem with the MBTI, is that it gives people yet another way to stereotype. I would never backstab anyone like that. I am a good person, and I would never do that. In fact, if I met those ESTJs, I would be just as frustrated as you. So, for the record, your interactions with ESTJs do not reflect a broader trend.

Saying this to one or two people, every once and a while, is fine. But saying it to someone and then two days later having to say it to someone else -- I am so drained. So if anyone else has ESTJ horror stories to tell, I beg of you to READ THIS POST before you say anything else about it. And in the meantime, I resign from my self-imposed duty, and I unsubscribe from this thread.