[ENTJ] ENTJ's, Maybe just misunderstood?

[Totenkindly]

I used the example in mammalian species particularly homo-sapien because that was the question, asking why I believe homosexuals in our culture are wrong.

I cannot stress enough that there is no social darwinist perspective here, although the differences are minimal, it is also key. I am not stating that things that survive are for sure superior, there are other factors that control species and that can come down to mere chance. I am merely expressing the fact that everthing on this planet strives TO survive.

Once more I never said anything was superior to reptiles or vice versa, in which case fish would be a shining example of evolution over time.

An example of genetic in lamens terms would something your born with, born a homosexual.
Where as I used mental to discern such a thing as a girl being beaten to the point where she is no longer attrcted to men and then become a homosexual.

Heterosexuality is essential in our species, for the survival of our species. If male and females are not attracted to each other then they won't procreate and henceforth humanity doesn't survive.

Look: If evolution is what is in charge here, you have nothing to worry about.

The homosexual genetics inevitably kill themselves off, as you have described.
Leaving only heterosexuals.
(That's what you want, right?)

And if they do not kill themselves off, then there is no threat to the human race.
Because obviously homosexuals can procreate just fine, even if they're not particularly interested in het sex.

What's the issue?
As far as I can tell, using just basic logic, there is none.
You can just sit back and twiddle your thumbs or whatever and not worry about the threat of homosexuals destroying the human race.

Now, as far as "social conditioning" for example where a female is abused by men enough that she no longer feels safe enough to make herself vulnerable in sexual relationships with males and decides instead to build a love bond with another woman, well, what's that have to do with evolution?

Evolution is about natural selection, based on genetics.
Not pure social conditioning.
The woman's genes are still 'straight.'

Again, why bring that up at all?
It seems irrelevant to your case.

I believe they do have an overall effect that is negative, and the same does go for parents ho do not have children, especially western families that do not.

Hmmm.
I'm not seeing a lot of "logic" here yet.
Just fear of Other.

Wow, we're starting to have enough ENTJs to observe their maturity levels and possible directions of maturity. I wonder if we could cram a few more in here for observation.

Yeah, I really do think it's fascinating to see such a wide degree of speciments in one jar, I've only ever seen 2-3 ENTJs altogether on an entire forum -- and suddenly they're all showing up in this thread! Cool beans.

 

[Lucifer]

Well you see it is all extremely relevent.

I do not believe homosexuality is completely genetic or is even mainly genetic. And that is the point, thatsomething that is not part of our evolution and opposes the basic system of survival: life;procreate;death;life;procreate;death;ad infinitum.

I don't know if you understood that I do not fear it as a genetic disposition, I fear it as a social one, that people are opposed to something such as their opposite gender, are in fact merely rebelling against life, and that does bother me.

 

[Kora]

There are kids that at a very early age feel attracted to the same sex. Sometimes it's a choice, but it's in its majority something gen-

Wait. Wasn't this a thread about ENTJs?

 

[FDG]

I do not believe homosexuality is completely genetic or is even mainly genetic. And that is the point, thatsomething that is not part of our evolution and opposes the basic system of survival: life;procreate;death;life;procreate;death;ad infinitum.

Everything that happens to humans is part of our evolution (in a very broad sense). Read Stuart Mill's "On Nature" for a philosophical-logical discussion on the matter. Homosexuality could simply be a positive feedback mechanism to ensue some degree of sustainability to population growth; namely, we could easily think about a society where 30 percent of the newborns were homosexuals and this society would be more easily able to achieve a steady-state of population growth (given that space in the earth is not unlimited, this is a reasonable goal).

 

[runvardh]

Everything that happens to humans is part of our evolution (in a very broad sense). Read Stuart Mill's "On Nature" for a philosophical-logical discussion on the matter. Homosexuality could simply be a positive feedback mechanism to ensue some degree of sustainability to population growth; namely, we could easily think about a society where 30 percent of the newborns were homosexuals and this society would be more easily able to achieve a steady-state of population growth (given that space in the earth is not unlimited, this is a reasonable goal).

That's why we need to colonize the Moon and Mars! *still wants his maritan asperagus garden*

 

[redacted]

I believe they do have an overall effect that is negative, and the same does go for parents ho do not have children, especially western families that do not.

Do you think that there is anything worse about a random homosexual than a heterosexual person that chooses not to have kids?

 

[Lucifer]

They are both equally troubling. I believe that homosexuality is choice and not genetic. People are born with different levels of estrogen and testosterone to the point where you have the part of our species that have male and female sexual organs. These are mutants of the species and are a part of the system experimenting.

But men who have a higher level of estrogen compared to the norm are not necessarily homosexuals, in fact I would put forth that because they are more feminine they are ostricised by their differences and then in that system they may choose to become homosexuals because they do not live up to the constant pressure of father figures and friends who judge them compared to the heterosexual stereotypical male.

The point dissonance is that both are choice and therefore are equally detrimental and similar. Now any viewers may want to jump all over my argument, as many people feel the need to respond to posts, saying that people dont choose etc. etc., but I am not talkingtoyou, and dissonance asked my opinon and I am giving it to him.

Especially if you are a feminist don't respond because I am growing weary of the blabber and non-sensical patterns that are your arguments.

 

[htb]

Apropos the thread about verbally articulating, every type has the potential to be misunderstood in mixed company. For ENTJs, the question is why and how they're misunderstood; and what action, based on an understanding of the given situation, can resolve conflicts.

Edit: For example --

 

[Xander]

Basing my responses on ENTJs as a type.. and deliberately going for the stereotype..

I do have strong opinions

You don't say. I had almost forgotten that but fortunately you scribed it in my forehead with a mallet so I remembered

I will voice those opinions. However I do my best to listen to any reasoned answer, I don't think I am always right. (Well, Ok, I concede.. I am right until someone can give me a decent reason why I am not..)

You listen? Hah! You spend five seconds waiting for them to grab you and if they don't you suffer from a neat for of narcolepsy. Micro sleeping through the boring bits.

I don't suffer fools gladly

Oh you do if you decided previously that they weren't fools.

I will walk away from meaningless conversations (To me meaningless is mundane conversations where no fact is actually exchanged for quite some time, Like chatting about TV Soaps.. why? It's fiction and it's not even very good fiction at that.) However I'd never do it to a friend or someone that has 'proved' themselve to me.

Read as "entertain me or lose me".

I don't raise my voice

Oh I quite believe you. That I am partially deaf is purely my own fault for being in the same room as your reasoned diatribe about the lack of organisation.

I consider my thoughts before I speak

As long as it's not so important that it needs saying NOW!

I will argue a point.. but I think I'm respectful.

Reads as "You're a dumbass, I'm sorry to say. I stopped listening hours ago."

I listen carefully to your response, I validate, I Give my response

Which is usually "No".

I can take criticism, things don't always have to be done my way, Just give me a reason why yours is better.

Ie, unless I'm beaten to the floor I'm not listening lah lah lah lah lah.

I'm civil, I don't interrupt or laugh etc

Speak when you're spoken to. Got it.

That said, I'm not one for trivial social 'nice-ities'

= Sod off I don't value your input at present as it is interrupting my own.

I'm not a control freak, I respect your opinion, I respect that you can live your life the way you want to.. I just expect a bit of understanding when I tell you why I think you are wrong. If you can take onboard my opinion and give me a decent rebuttal.. You gain respect and and you have a place in my house any day. If you can't, You're a close minded moron?

= I respect you as long as you fit into my paradigm. Otherwise you are just stoopid.

I wouldn't say I am goal-chasing or shallow too much. I enjoy nice things, I enjoy having money in the bank, I aspire to better things, However I could do without it.. I just don't see why I should?

Too much = all consuming?

I don't set out to take over the world, I agree that if the opportunity was handed to me.. I'd have a go, Wouldn't everyone?

= I'm coming through unless you post guards on ALL the entrances.

I don't pretend to be good at everything, However I think I am good at leading, explaining and organizing. I don't see why I should have to know every detail of your business and every detail of someone else's business just to be good at getting you working together?

= If you know what's good for you you'll just shut up and get with the program. Capisce?

I care deeply about my friends, and family who have proven themselves worthy

If you're useful then I'll speak to you...

I should point out, before I get shot, that my father is an ENTJ and breaks most of the rules for ENTJs. The thing is that people only react to poorly developed ENTJs as ENTJs because the good one's are nothing like what people say they are.

Sure he still decides that some people are just idiots and treats them as such but they have to earn that label through sheer hard work and stupidity and even then he's quite prepared for the idea that even a fool can have a genius idea.

He does follow your "prove yourself" pattern but moreso from the idea that people can prove themselves worth listening to and if you manage to do so then he will listen even if it sounds like you're wrong.

I should also point out that this man knows the MBTI inside and out and that this knowledge has improved his development ten fold.

Developed ENTJs are caring and creative. When they plan it is a plan to encompass everyone's wants and needs and is not just some power trip. They are also often happy being in an advisers role and are much happier giving over control than their less developed bretheren.

 

[Xander]

-ENTJ and INTJ have a duty to run the world because no one else can, or they can burn it to the ground

So would it frighten you to know that the perfect adviser for an ENTJ is often an INTP? You see all your strategies and structures have a tendency to not see the problems they will encounter thinking that they can break through any resistance. Us INTPs, however, can show you where you will fail before you get there.
(This is of course based on the idea that both persons are adequately developed otherwise all bets are off.)

 

[Didums]

-homosexuality is opposite to existence and is alot more terrible then people realize

[youtube=UZWqQNRAoKY]Evolution of Homosexuality (by a Biologist)[/youtube]

 

[Lateralus]

That reminds me... What are you all doing here? I cannot imagine any of the ENTJs I know, with one exception and she doesn't practice steamrolling (anymore ), spending their precious time hanging out on an internet forum.

Heh, I'm never just browsing the forum. I'm always doing at least a couple other things when I'm on here.

 

[Fuent]

Alright,

If you are a man of science, as I am, you will follow this quite easily.
Man has evolved from the smallest micro-organism on this planet, as has all life on this planet, and this life has EVOLVED, being the key word.

Evolution is the process of increasing a creatures ability to survive by adapting to a changing enviroment whether it is the climate or another species.

The only way evolution can exist in mammalian species is by the transfer of genes from a father and mother.

The thing that all creatures on this planet have in common and is the single driving function to this macro-organism that is humanity is:
Survival.

Now on our planet no living creature can exist past a certain time period and it expires once this time period elapses.

You may be asking: "well if everthing dies how can life exist?"

Good question Billy. Well you see that before an organism dies it is driven by a genetic inlay in their instincts to procreate.

Hence the only way from a species to survive is to procreate since a lifeform can only exist for a certain period of time.

This process leads me to the conclusion that homosexuals represent the death of our species. Whether it is a mental or genetic factor, it still exists and is the complete opposite of survival for the species.

Yeah man good luck to you finding a mate and procreating. You won't be doing the whole "surviving" thing you're so obsessed about when you can't find a mate because of your attitude. Your not gonna be helping the survival of the species just like those homosexuals you loathe for probably one of the dumbest reasons I've ever heard. You're a little too caught up in your theory of superiority. Snap out of it. No one likes a pompous sourpuss. This shit doesn't attract the ladies. It attracts bullets.

 

[Didums]

-I believe that most people are idiots and are not worth listening too

Yes by definition there is a disproportionate amount of intelligent people compared to average people, however it doesn't necessarily mean they aren't worth listening to them, you can learn about their psyche by determining the mistakes in their reasoning.

-I only listen to people who speak in unbiased factual information, the others
I simply take apart their argument one piece at a time until they cry

Well that depends on what Unbiased Factual Information means. I understand that you mean Objectively viewed information, but objectivity in itself is limited by the human perception. Bias itself is a hypocritical concept. I understand and relate to you on this, I'm just clarifying

-I care for only those who share my dream of a world that should be

What happens when your dream reaches fruition?

-homosexuality is opposite to existence and is alot more terrible then people realize

-I am not a racist or sexist...

Oh really?

-I am arrogant and care nothing for people who can not live up to my standards

-I am arrogant because I am good at anything that I set my mind too and no person is my superior

In a power situation, I'm your superior (INTP oversees the ENTJ) But then again I need you to get the work done, so its mutual.

-ENTJ and INTJ ARE the evilest types in the way other types describe evil, but we know better, we know evil is something they call what they do not understand and can never accomplish

-We are also the evilest types because we have the power to cause so much `evil` (or good if it was desired)

-ENTJ and INTJ have a duty to run the world because no one else can, or they can burn it to the ground

ENTJ = Te Ni Se Fi
INTJ = Ni Te Fi Se

INTP = Ti Ne Si Fe

ENTJ and INTP make a better team. INTJ has more Feeling than us.

-I feel no reason to live as others do or be controlled by the propganda aimed at people to make them a certain way

-Soceity is a hypocritical joke

-I have no patience for the dumb or ignorant

-Knowledge is the only universal truth and I wished that eveyone would
understand that there is no God and you are brainashed by the most sinister corperation on the planent:the church

-I want to create a world free of religion and people who cannot help themselves

-I find things like advertisements to be so hollow, you can see the multi-angled approachthey take to convince people to buy things, and it saddens me that it works

Agreed.

-they assume they are right when they outnumber someone, when really the fact is they become even more incorrect because they have more morons supporting their beliefs

Yes, its quite sad. One genius cannot win an argument against a mob of morons with irrationality guiding their beliefs, they simply won't listen, and will say that 'the majority rules'.

-I believe everyone should geta vote for every I.Q. they have because there is no way my vote should be equal to Joe Blow`s vote down the street who can only manage to drink alcohol and beat his wife and family in a day.

Interesting idea, it has logical basis, but it would be rather difficult to implement. Which test would be used? What values assigned? How would you keep the masses from revolting?

-I do not need to rule the world, the world needs me to rule it

I never say never (irony), but I'll say that I highly doubt the ability for a world-monarch to rule for an extended period of time. It could happen, but it would soon break apart into smaller factions like all empires.

-I think people should have a chance to succeed but in failure they are on their own

In what sense? What if the person learns from his/her mistake and now you see more potential in him/her? Will they still be thrown under-the-bus?

-Excuses and defeat is for the weak mind and body

Defeat is a learning experience.

 

[redacted]

They are both equally troubling. I believe that homosexuality is choice and not genetic. People are born with different levels of estrogen and testosterone to the point where you have the part of our species that have male and female sexual organs. These are mutants of the species and are a part of the system experimenting.

But men who have a higher level of estrogen compared to the norm are not necessarily homosexuals, in fact I would put forth that because they are more feminine they are ostricised by their differences and then in that system they may choose to become homosexuals because they do not live up to the constant pressure of father figures and friends who judge them compared to the heterosexual stereotypical male.

The point dissonance is that both are choice and therefore are equally detrimental and similar. Now any viewers may want to jump all over my argument, as many people feel the need to respond to posts, saying that people dont choose etc. etc., but I am not talkingtoyou, and dissonance asked my opinon and I am giving it to him.

Especially if you are a feminist don't respond because I am growing weary of the blabber and non-sensical patterns that are your arguments.

I see the consistency of your point of view (although I personally disagree, but whatever). Does it then follow that you choose who you are attracted to? That you could personally choose to be attracted to males?

I think the argument most people would use against yours is that sexual desire isn't within the reigns of rational thought. You have sexual impulses, and those impulses differ from person to person. Just as I see certain females and get a welling of desire, homosexual males see certain males and get that same effect. I know that I am not consciously choosing who causes that welling of desire -- for me, the trend is that only females have brought that out in me. I definitely didn't choose to be attracted to them, though, I just notice that I am.

If that is the way my attraction works, it seems perfectly reasonable to assume that a homosexual would have the same mechanism for attraction -- an unconscious one. They would just notice that their trend for attraction is pointed towards those of the same gender.

Another idea -- what about those homosexuals who still choose to reproduce through sperm donation (either males or females)? Do you find anything "wrong" about them?

 

[FDG]

So would it frighten you to know that the perfect adviser for an ENTJ is often an INTP? You see all your strategies and structures have a tendency to not see the problems they will encounter thinking that they can break through any resistance. Us INTPs, however, can show you where you will fail before you get there.
(This is of course based on the idea that both persons are adequately developed otherwise all bets are off.)

Yeah, I agree with this. For the same reason INTPs are also quite good when I am learning a new subject and I am not sure if my understanding is proceeding in the correct direction.

 

[yenom]

This is who I am.
-I believe that most people are idiots and are not worth listening too

-I only listen to people who speak in unbiased factual information, the others
I simply take apart their argument one piece at a time until they cry

-People who care about feelings and soap operas and the like intrigue me then are found to be mainly downright masochists

-I am arrogant and care nothing for people who can not live up to my standards

-I am arrogant because I am good at anything that I set my mind too and no person is my superior

-Simple folk (Guardians and Artisans) are so caught up in themselves it is laughable

-Idealists always look at something from the wrong side, and rationals view something as it should be, simply

-Soceity is a hypocritical joke

-ENTJ and INTJ ARE the evilest types in the way other types describe evil, but we know better, we know evil is something they call what they do not understand and can never accomplish

-We are also the evilest types because we have the power to cause so much `evil` (or good if it was desired)

-I care for only those who share my dream of a world that should be

-I have no patience for the dumb or ignorant

-I am not a racist or sexist, intelligent people and the rest is how I break down the population

-Excuses and defeat is for the weak mind and body

-Victory in any form is the ultimate endeavour, showing it off is close second

-Knowledge is the only universal truth and I wished that eveyone would
understand that there is no God and you are brainashed by the most sinister corperation on the planent:the church

-I have no real wish to destroy men or belittle them, it is just they are so dumb and ignorant about this little world they live in and have no grasp on reality they just ask for it

-they assume they are right when they outnumber someone, when really the fact is they become even more incorrect because they have more morons supporting their beliefs

-I believe everyone should geta vote for every I.Q. they have because there is no way my vote should be equal to Joe Blow`s vote down the street who can only manage to drink alcohol and beat his wife and family in a day.

-homosexuality is opposite to existence and is alot more terrible then people realize

-I feel no reason to live as others do or be controlled by the propganda aimed at people to make them a certain way

-I find things like advertisements to be so hollow, you can see the multi-angled approachthey take to convince people to buy things, and it saddens me that it works

-I want to create a world free of religion and people who cannot help themselves

-I think people should have a chance to succed but in failure they are on their own

-ENTJ and INTJ have a duty to run the world because no one else can, or they can burn it to the ground

-I do not need to rule the world, the world needs me to rule it

You cannot change the world with hate, much less to rule it. Forgive your enemy. becasuse they can never destroy you. Only you can destroy yourself.

Whatever plan you have in mind, you cannot do it all alone. Sooner or later you will have to cooperate with someone, and that someone is often someone you hate intensely.

 

[Kora]

Oh my, this is funny.
Exactly how do you plan to 'change' the world? Because, hello, the world is ruled by the richest. Are you rich? Or even better, do you have a nuclear arsenal in your house?
You're only a dude venting in a forum. Better stay in the reality and try to change the things that are on your reach... You're not going to rule the world, sorry.
And I don't think you don't say those things because you're an ENTJ. ENTJs can be... ENTJs, but you're a little bit out of line. Just my opinion.

Btw I smell a troll.

 

[Xander]

Btw I smell a troll.

Don't say that! There has to be someone to play with!! Besides I think it's more a case of an ENTJ going a little rampant. All you have to do is burst the bubble and they soon come down again.

It's just one of those points when you have to lay it on the table. Sure it's wrinkly and ugly but, damn it, it's a good friend!

 

[booya moon]

Alright,

If you are a man of science, as I am, you will follow this quite easily.
Man has evolved from the smallest micro-organism on this planet, as has all life on this planet, and this life has EVOLVED, being the key word.

Evolution is the process of increasing a creatures ability to survive by adapting to a changing enviroment whether it is the climate or another species.

The only way evolution can exist in mammalian species is by the transfer of genes from a father and mother.

The thing that all creatures on this planet have in common and is the single driving function to this macro-organism that is humanity is:
Survival.

Now on our planet no living creature can exist past a certain time period and it expires once this time period elapses.

You may be asking: "well if everthing dies how can life exist?"

Good question Billy. Well you see that before an organism dies it is driven by a genetic inlay in their instincts to procreate.

Hence the only way from a species to survive is to procreate since a life-form can only exist for a certain period of time.

This process leads me to the conclusion that homosexuals represent the death of our species. Whether it is a mental or genetic factor, it still exists and is the complete opposite of survival for the species.

Hey Lucy! Has someone been reading too much of Richard Dawkins lately? C`mon admit it
In my honest opinion, your arguments are just a bunch of populistic phrases with no real scientific proof (and I say this as a scientist).

To the topic of ENTJs: When you get to know them, most are really likable people. And yes, I think they are misunderstood - but is at least in part their own fault. Let me explain: they are so busy, that they think minding the feelings of others is a pure waste of time - they simply don`t have the time for that (it`s not that they want to hurt your feelings on purpose). I get along well with most of them. One ENTJ told me, she liked me because I don`t get offended easily - this proves my point