[ENFJ] ENFJs, why are you so fake?

[JocktheMotie]

Kind of like how Si-doms come across as naggy, boring, and redundant to Ne-doms ?

Precisely

 

[TopherRed]

You were doing good there Jock, don't screw it up. I love Ti.

 

[sgman]

how is it more genuine to help other people so that you would get good feeling from it?

Hey, at least they're honest about it.

Well, I think you're not quite at the same level as the OP. Cuz the OP's saying that the type ENFJ acts "fake." However, an ENFJ being "genuine" would be being true to what an ENFJ is. Hence in order to be "genuine," an ENFJ should be expected to act "fake."

 

[SUPER]

Precisely

heh, so imagine what ESFJs come across as to us...

Fe + Si trying to impress Ne + Ti......


it's a common eye rolling experience

 

[nynesneg]

Well, I think you're not quite at the same level as the OP. Cuz the OP's saying that the type ENFJ acts "fake." However, an ENFJ being "genuine" would be being true to what an ENFJ is. Hence in order to be "genuine," an ENFJ should be expected to act "fake."

Lol...

Well here's a typical scenario for you.

Some person ISFP BF and I both know gets into some stupid things.

BF's response: "That person is such a dumb #$%@, what an idiot to do that! *laugh at their drama*"
Then he moves on and effectively ignores them.

My response: "Poor person. They're having all these insecurity issues, etc. Just happen to run into the wrong things at the wrong time which have caused them to get into this mess. I really wish there was something I could do to help their underlying psychological problem, so everything can be better again for them."
So I try to be a good friend, even better than I was before.



Neither way is right or wrong. While being caring might be good and all, it can easily go too far too. So this isn't something I intentionally think to go "manipulate/fake care" people, this is my response on a natural subconscious level. Obviously I've learned too that helping people isn't always the best thing.

 

[SUPER]

ENFJs are very Oprah-ish.

HI HOW ARE YOU!? LONG TIME NO SEE, YOU LOOK REALLY GOOD, I LOOOVE WHAT YOU'VE DONE WITH YOUR HAIR! OH THAT'S JUST A WIG YOU'RE WEARING BECAUSE YOU HAVE CANCER? THAT'S TERRIBLE! TALK TO MY PRODUCER MAYBE HE CAN BOOK YOU FOR MY SHOW, THE AUDIENCE WOULD LOVE TO HEAR ABOUT THAT. ANYWAYS I'M OFF TO MY BILLION DOLLAR RESORT IN HAWAII, TOODLES!

 

[Ozz]

Kind of like how Si-doms come across as naggy, boring, and redundant to Ne-doms ?

Now where did that crazy idea came from?

 

[Domino]

Now where did that crazy idea came from?

Probably off the back of a truck. I hear opinions are cheaper these days when the store has wheels. I jest. I kid.

*helps a little old lady across the street before whipping hostages in the dungeon*

 

[Aimee]

I know ENFJs have a want to please people, which in turn rewards them with appreciation, but is this a genuine system? I ask this because I think the other side involves plans or goals. With this in mind, couldn't they please people simply for the sake of their goal?

So I think there's a variable that decides this all: whether the ultimate outcome of the goal is intended to help others or themselves.

I feel I've dealt with both sides, but mostly the latter. I have a friend that will "help" you, but in the end it had nothing to do with friendship, but an underlying goal in which I have to "keep my end of the deal" and help out with. I think this also has to do with charisma and trying to uphold it in order to accomplish a goal.

Am I talking about Hitler yet?

Your subject line is so rude - Sounds like you have been let down by an ENFJ. They have been some of my best friends. I see what you are saying but your delivery is off putting.

 

[Moiety]

Really not the Fe users' fault.

I agree. It's just like the kid who was born crippled.

 

[FemMecha]

Fe will tend to seem fake to some Ti users. Really not the Fe users' fault.

If the Ti perception is incorrect about the fakeness, then it would be the Ti user's "fault", or at least an example of having preconceived notions and personal perception distort reality.

In general terms (not in response to the quoted post only) is anyone concerned with getting it right, or is it just an interplay of mutually distorted perceptions? If the role of passing judgment is a way to simplify reality and reinforce preconceived prejudices with a disregard for what is actually occurring, then that is the epitome of fakeness.

 

[TopherRed]

Honestly, I think this thread should be shot. But I've had the urge to finish the song...

"You're so faaaake. I bet you think this song is about truth: don't you, don't you, don't you?"

 

[ExAstrisSpes]

Hello there. Sorry to resurrect a dead thread, but I was linked here from a different thread and I felt compelled to comment.

It's a defense. IME they don't want to get hurt and don't want to let anyone too close. Not until they trust you.

This is certainly part of it. There's a soft, gooey center I keep well protected/defended. An INTP broke in recently, and that was extremely unnerving to me until I told him what I was feeling and he said that he wouldn't consciously do anything to hurt me. I still keep my inner guard up with him, but honestly he's the closest I've let anybody "in".

ENFJs may stereotypically focus away from themselves for 'the greater good' and all of that jazz, but it's doesn't have to hold true or be completely selfless.

I've discovered recently that the more I try to focus the attention away from myself, the more I bring it to myself. I've also recently realized the power of my own charisma to others, and frankly it scares the $h!t out of me. I do not want the power to hurt other people, I just want everyone to get along.

I think both ENFJs and INFJs (yes, my own type) can have this problem. It's not one of our prouder suits, but I've seen people of both types put on masks, compliment and hang out with people they can't stand. It's not to say these are the only types that do that, and NFJs tend to do it with the intention of not hurting other people.

There are some people I can't stand but can wear a mask of approval around them. If they knew how I really felt about them they'd either be deeply hurt inside, angry or both. It's usually because I don't want to hurt their feelings or be in conflict with them when it's not necessary. INFJs are great at hiding things if we feel an incentive to do so. We'll complain to our trusted allies but it'll stay there. We also use people as chess pieces sometimes to get what we want.

Two anecdotes: One of my best friends from college married a guy I think is a chump. I just thought (and still do think) that it's a poor match. But I care about her feelings and made a big deal to go to her wedding (two states away) and bought a really nice gift for her (probably nicer than what most of her other friends gave her). I made it a big point that I supported her in her marriage, because she's seemed truly happy with him and happy about getting married to him. I'm sure she would be appalled if she knew what I really thought about him.

There's a guy at work who really amuses me. Just this nerdy, awkward guy. MIT grad. But really immature. Like he can't stand alcohol or coffee/tea, and his favorite drink is chocolate milk. Still plays computer/video games (nothing wrong with that, I do too) and bugs me about playing games with him even though I've told him I'm busy with grad school and my other hobbies (running, etc). It would be easy to write him off and give him the cold shoulder, but as a fellow nerd and geek I know how hurt he would be by it and he hasn't given me a reason to be mean to him. If he did something particularly asshole-ish then I'd be fine with telling him off and never speaking to him again.

Sometimes with Fe there is an element of "I sincerely want you to feel good in this situation, and my personal opinion towards you is irrelevant because I see you outside of the context of that opinion." That's not fake. It demonstrates a clear sense of personal boundaries and each person having a right to their own. It shows an ability to see the limits of personal opinion rather than assuming it has a global quality that is in any way objective and certain. Here is a sample of such an internal dialog "This person rubs me the wrong way. Perhaps it is because I have a prejudice or misperception. Maybe there is an explanation from that person's life and I would do the same in their shoes. Perhaps my opinion is limited and wrong. Maybe I need to learn something more. My bad feeling does not justify mistreating this person. It is only information about myself and the other person. It is something to learn from, not something to justify executing a punishment."

This. See above anecdotes.

And do you realize how brutal an ENFJ is when they get blunt? Makes anyone far too defensive to care what I'm actually saying or whether or not it matters to them. If I tell it like it is, I'm a , if I try to show you I believe in you & try to encourage or support you even when I think you're being wrong, I'm fake & manipulative. There is too much intensity for middle ground without back bends... and they seldom work unless a person is close enough to see that I'm really trying.

ENFJs know how intense they are to other people. Man, on the rare occasions when I "lost" it, I was so shocked and my own behavior and so upset with myself that I hurt the other person so badly.

Let's see my social image.... reserved, quirky, intellectual, jabberjaws, intense, open-minded.... that's all I can think of?
haha way to lump ENFJs all together. This is where I really question my ENFJness. I am nothing like what you described in the above quote. I am far from being "popular" and gave up caring about that stuff a LONG time ago. However, I could see how some ENFJ females would gravitate towards that behavior.

EDIT: Image-consciousness probably relates more to enneagram. Since most ENFJs are 2w3 or 3w2 (I think), than most are going to be image-conscious. Maybe? I'm 3w4... a little out of the norm.

I can't say I follow fashion, but I certainly have an idealized "style" that I would love to embody all the time if I could. I let it slide because there's no way my budget can support the ideal.

I suspect I'm popular without me doing anything about it. More people have known/heard about me than I've ever known myself, and all without my doing anything to propagate it.

nahhh, if we like you, you will know. If we don't like you or feel neutral about you, we will stay formal. (or at least that's how I am).

EDIT: Also, XNFJs tend to like XNTPs in general. The people that I tend to not like are the people that also grate many others. If you are a generally likable person, I don't see why the ENFJ girls would just like you for your reputation. I am guessing you have a good reputation for a reason.

I think that most ENFJs would not be that cold to use you.... they have to be in a bad frame of mind. IMO, most ENFJs would feel really guilty if they negatively manipulated someone for their own gain. Aren't ENTPs usually good at detecting manipulation games? You should just use the ENTP magic to detect any BS.

Unless you get a weird vibe from one of them you shouldn't worry too much about it. You probably are just a really cool guy. That's the most likely reason!

This. I'm incredibly formal with people I don't know, and social etiquette matters to me.

 

[You]

I know some ENFJ. A friend. Acquaintance. They both meet you with this fake disposition, or artifical, strangley not them, indiriect, masking. I'm not mad at it because I understand that its a defense mechanism and distancing themselves from people, but sometimes there enthusiasm seems so contrived to me. I like it when they just mellow out and be open that way.

Or maybe this all has to do with the fact their girls.

 

[Arclight]

Things are pretty fucked up when..

You are open, genuine, complimentary,engaging, polite and generally concerned that people are comfortable in your presence.
And this is called fake??

I disagree..

It's simply humanity VS the animals.

Choose your side well.

 

[human101]

"we are what we pretend to be" Kurt Vonnegut

one love.

 

[Amargith]

If someone always razzes and bullies you a bit to appear tough even though they actually like you are they fake? Is someone who puts up a tough exterior of being in control of everything they feel ever fake? There are as many ways to be fake as there are ways of thinking and feeling about the world. It's not an ENFJ thing.

Sometimes with Fe there is an element of "I sincerely want you to feel good in this situation, and my personal opinion towards you is irrelevant because I see you outside of the context of that opinion." That's not fake. It demonstrates a clear sense of personal boundaries and each person having a right to their own. It shows an ability to see the limits of personal opinion rather than assuming it has a global quality that is in any way objective and certain. Here is a sample of such an internal dialog "This person rubs me the wrong way. Perhaps it is because I have a prejudice or misperception. Maybe there is an explanation from that person's life and I would do the same in their shoes. Perhaps my opinion is limited and wrong. Maybe I need to learn something more. My bad feeling does not justify mistreating this person. It is only information about myself and the other person. It is something to learn from, not something to justify executing a punishment."

I see fakeness as being "I want to appear that I desire to make you feel good, but actually am trying to make you feel badly."

This.

I actually aspire to do this myself. To step away from my first gut reaction to someone, and wish them well despite not feeling comfortable with them. And I admire *anyone* who can get past their own personal pov to do this, as this to me is truly being a loving person. Someone who realizes their own boundaries, their own limits and therefore doesn't impose those on another person.


I also wholeheartedly agree with the last statement. I see the fakeness that I associate with guilttripping Fe mostly in the whole sniping under the table kinda bitchiness while sipping your tea and smiling. The whole 'polite' and 'caring' little remarks that truly aren't a big deal supposedly but are clearly put together to just undermine your self-esteem, make you fall in line and get them in a position of power, coz they want power, or coz they wanna make you suffer and feel inferior, so they feel better. That's what pisses me off beyond all reason :steam:

And it's about the furtest away one could get from the previous scenario, as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Glycerine]

ahhh, you must be talking about the "Splenda Complex". Some people seem/act sweet but leave a bad aftertaste. Satine, it makes sense why you might not like Fe. The "Splenda Complex" mixed with Fe can be quite nasty.

 

[Amargith]

Don't get me wrong, I'm quite adept at it myself, if I have to. I really really hate it though, but I'll be damned if they think I cannot beat them at their own frigging game.

 

[Glycerine]

nah, I am good. Those are Fe users I don't really care for myself. If they give you a bad aftertaste, then they are probably up to something. I have met some Fe users that have made me want to cringe because it is like they are secretly judging negatively (which they most likely are). Later on, it turns out that I was typically correct. Others seem rather genuine and their vibe is good. The few bad ones seem to ruin it for the rest of us for the outsider's opinion.