[Other/Multiple Enneatypes] Differences between 1s and 8s

[Virtual ghost]

From what I have seen this forum can really use a thread like this one. The problem is that these two types can look so similar that it can be very very hard to tell them apart. Even if you go judging per motivations the specific situations can mix those two. General opinion is that it is much more likely that 1 mistypes as 8 but I am not too sure about that since 8 grows into 2.


Therefore for the start I will write down a number of question purely in order to present the issue.


How to tell the difference between 1w9 and 8w9 ?
How to tell the difference between 8 and 1 integrated to 7 ?
How to tell the difference between 1 and 8 integrated to 2 ?
How to tell the difference between 8 desintgrated to 5w4 and 1 desintgrated to 4w5 ?
How to tell the difference between 8 and 1 that have same fixes (especially if they are 6 and 3)
How to tell the difference between 1 and 8s that are Sx last ?
How to tell the difference between 8 and 1s that are So last ?
How to tell the difference between 1 fix and 8 fix ?
How to tell the difference between 1 and 8 that wasn't born in democracy and knows that "My way of the highway" means certain death ?
How to tell the difference between 8 and 1 that wasn't born in religious environment ?
How to tell the difference between 8 and 1 that knows that the only thing that can prevent collapse of the system is his/her own determination ?
How big are the difference between the minds of a male 1 and female 8 ?


In other words: this can be quite muddy issue.

 

[á´…eparted]

Posting so I don't forget to comment later.
[MENTION=1180]whatever[/MENTION] [MENTION=4945]EJCC[/MENTION]

 

[miss fortune]

shit... had a longer response and then accidentally closed the window


so for a brief overview of the differences between an 8 and a 1 from an 8 who has discussed this with 1s and has concluded that they've spent the last 7 years living with a 1 as well (and is good friends with a 1 too... damn, I collect them! )

8s and 1s can actually seem similar in a way... both are likely to smile and pretend that everything is just fine when it's really not (along with 3s and 7s... I'm onto you guys!) because they must maintain their image and both have a nice kettle of anger simmering on the back burner at all times and both are pretty damned protective of "their" people

the differences are though, what the motivations are and the quickness of anger and its dissipation...

8s don't want to be seen as weak, needy or vulnerable and do their best to never be seen as such... they tend to anger more quickly than 1s do in most cases (depends on the 8 and 1 in question really) but they also tend to get over it a lot more quickly... 1s seem to be the masters of hating someone in the long term and holding grudges, which is impressive... an 8 will yell at you and then will happily go out for a coffee or a beer with you afterwards and you'll end up on good enough terms, a 1 will become angry with you and start plotting somewhere they can bury your body without ever getting caught and they will still be planning this when you see them again 3 years later... 1s have a remarkable capacity for hating (ok... I'm being a little dramatic here, but still... damn, 1s!)

1s fear being seen as imperfect and they strive for perfection in a manner that would make Bree from Desperate Housewives quite proud... it doesn't matter what's beneath the surface or if their world is falling apart, a 1 will put a fuck ton of effort into appearing as perfect as possible... 8s don't care about perfection so much as whether someone's challenging their authority. If someone really wants to get under my 1 coworker's skin, all they have to do is question her work and suggest that she might have fucked up somewhere... she will spend hours poring over things to figure out what went wrong and if she really DID screw it up and she will try to hide the fact that's what she's doing as well. If someone wants to get at me they just need to try and undermine me and suggest that they don't take me seriously... that is an evil thing to do

I guess the trademark for a 1, no matter what other influences there are, is that innate fussiness over things that they have (that I always think is adorable )... they just want for things to be perfect, themselves especially, and the effort that they put into making sure that happens is impressive... presenting an image of perfection to the world at any cost... do not find flaws in a 1 or their work and then try and rub it in their face because then you shall experience their wrath... angry 1s are scary and their capacity for grudge holding and hate is remarkable

the trademark for an 8 no matter what is that they do not want to appear weak or have others control them... try to suggest to a nice and relaxed looking 8 that you are going to control some aspect of their existence... and then you might want to get some distance in between the two of you before the fuse runs out on their temper. The 8 will remind you of how they got to their position in a quick and brutal manner before going back to relaxing and you will quite likely not enjoy it.

so that's just a quick and messy comparison that by no means encompasses everything or all individuals... sorry for not directly answering all of your questions, but I have things to do and stuff!

 

[ceecee]

the trademark for an 8 no matter what is that they do not want to appear weak or have others control them... try to suggest to a nice and relaxed looking 8 that you are going to control some aspect of their existence... and then you might want to get some distance in between the two of you before the fuse runs out on their temper. The 8 will remind you of how they got to their position in a quick and brutal manner before going back to relaxing and you will quite likely not enjoy it.

This actually happened to me between during the holidays. My reaction was identical to this, except replace the banana with Christmas cookies.

 

[á´…eparted]

So much for remembering my self note .

What [MENTION=1180]whatever[/MENTION] said pretty much sums it up. As such I'll try not to repeat things too much. I also agree with her that 1's and 8's are sort of drawn to each other. Both are rather tough and can tolerate or even enjoy each others bopping. I don't have that many 8's in my life currently, but I have had several in the past. One of my best friends in high school is an ENFP 8w7, and my god she was a fireball. I miss her. She actually appeared rather cp6ish on the suface, but when you got to know her you realized that indeed her goals were to be strong, and to hide her weaknesses. Yet she was oddly ok with being vulernable at certain times? Likely the whole Ne/Fi thing. I see a decent amount of her in [MENTION=4939]kyuuei[/MENTION]

The key trait between them is going "oh no no... everything's FINE! . Oh it's ok, everything is GOOD! Yup everything is GREAT! " aaaaand it's totally not. Since I'm an ENFJ my emotions come out readily and have a permanently leak to the outside world, but honestly, little comes out, and when it comes to hurts and stuff yeah I instinctually minimize/hide that stuff. If tritype wasn't locked into head/gut/heart groupings than I'd be 183 as I actually connect to a pretty decent degree with 8's, and their whole motivation of don't show weakness. For me though it that if I am showing weaknesses, it means I am imperfect and bad. Where as with 8's it will stop at weakness. It's the end point of reasons effectively.

Another thing I've noticed is the general vibe that 1's and 8's have is actually really different. You just need to know what to look for. 1's have this vibe of tension and control. 8's have this vibe of, well it's actually difficult to describe, but their vibe is NOT tense or controlled. 8's vibe is surprisingly calm and still, but you sense that if you step in the wrong spot, that stillness is going to become a storm out of nowhere. It's sort of like walking into a high end shop and everything is pristine... and they're watching.

The whole hate/grudge thing is also really important. 1's can hate, easily. It's natural for us. 8's seem unable to hold onto hate/grudges. Honestly, I feel like I would implode and freak out if I had no hate (I'm being serious). It's sort of like... who am I without it? That shit is a drive source. It's like taking away all the fuel. Things make us angry, and the only way to quell that is to DO something.

1's also tend to have a really long fuse. I'm sure people here don't think I do, but I have only let off one of my long fuses a handful of times. You really have to chip away at us for a long time before we'll actually snap. Futher there's usually a lot of warnings. Little bites and nips here and there, and they'll progressively get a bit rougher but not much. 1's frequently warn because we don't want to snap. It costs a lot of energy, and contrary to what might be assumed, 1's don't like holding anger. It costs energy that could be used on other stuff. Plus, if 1's do snap, we'll clean up the mess cause, well, perfectionism and all that. 8's leave that shit to you all to deal with, you clean up their mess lol. I'd argue when a 1 explodes, it's worse than an 8 explosion because 8's it's often out of defense/protection in some form, where as with 1's there is a long list of reason that lead up to it, and we're gonna run through all of them, and it can get REALLY personal, and you will know EXACTLY how you were wrong in the most forceful in your face you WILL learn manner.

8's also tend to have a vindictive streak in them when they've really been crossed (or you step on one of their sacred cows), that is basically absent with 1's. While 1's will get personal much more frequently, they almost never, ever seek to cause harm for harm's sake alone. This is due to 1's need for justification. It's neigh impossible to justify hurt for the sake of hurt. It's almost always about leveling things out. I've never met or seen a 1 who could (I can't either). 8's can though. They will blow past that and just go for utter destruction. To them, nothing matters except for the target being reduced to dust, and it will be done by any means they so choose. You really got to push an 8 to get to that point, but if you do, it's kind of the worst there is. Don't mess!

God enneagram can be so negative!

 

[Virtual ghost]

To be honest I did fair a amount of research on this topic because my fix is very muddy in 8w9 vs. 1w9 dimension. Basically this is the only part of my typing that is not fully certain. However since I know that a number of people here have problems in this asspect I have decided not to make this just about myself. So far the best theory for me is that my fix is 1w9 while the 8 thing is comming from growth in e5 core.


Also I will dare to say that I "Hate like a 1" the way how familiar those descriptions of e1 anger sounds have litterally drived me into the situation that I started to consider 1w9 as my main type. I have even wrote a huge post why I am actually e1 but I have never posted it and I said to myself "get real you are not e1". However the whole thing anger/frustration with reality rings sooooo many bells in me. The main problem is that I am from the country where e1 perfection is not possible and you will have to be more pragmatic if you want to eat. What is basically the main source of my anger and frustration since everything is corrupt and made of shit. What leaves you only one option and that is that you use your anger in a pretty 8ish way because that is the only way you can make something out of it. You try to make your self stronger in order to turn the trends around. However this is from ennegram point of view pretty messy since this is direct mixing of e1 idealism and e8 methodology.


Thoughts ? Experiences ?

 

[PikUpYourPantsPatrol]

It doesn't tend to be very hard, 1s are proper, 8s are improper, 1s follow and enforce rules, 8s don't follow rules but enforce their will on others which can look like enforcing rules. 8s are aggressive, 1s aren't but seem to always be pissed, 8s are fun loving, 1s choose work before play, 1s are super-ego focused, 8s are id focused, 1s are self-righteous and moral, 8s are arrogant and a bit sadistic at times

 

[miss fortune]

It doesn't tend to be very hard, 1s are proper, 8s are improper, 1s follow and enforce rules, 8s don't follow rules but enforce their will on others which can look like enforcing rules. 8s are aggressive, 1s aren't but seem to always be pissed, 8s are fun loving, 1s choose work before play, 1s are super-ego focused, 8s are id focused, 1s are self-righteous and moral, 8s are arrogant and a bit sadistic at times

not necessarily true once you look deeper

 

[Santosha]

You could also look at defence mechanisms

Reaction formation and Denial

 

[PikUpYourPantsPatrol]

not necessarily true once you look deeper

How so?

 

[miss fortune]

How so?

a healthy 8 doesn't force people to do things or act aggressively... to use my favorite analogy for an 8, an 8 is like a well trained family dog Rottweiler... they're nice and friendly and laid back until you step over the line and try to harm them or one of their people and then you will regret your actions... as for the other traits that all depends upon the wings and other fixes and such... an 8w9 won't be nearly as fun loving as an 8w7, for example, and an 8 with a heavy 2 influence will usually be pretty nice and polite and will try very hard to NOT be arrogant or sadistic

1s on the other hand can be funny, willing to break rules that they see as wrong (rules for a 1 aren't necessarily the rules that are in place) and considering wings and fixes and such 1s usually aren't particularly self righteous or happy to quash fun... ones are driven by seeking perfection, but they're also human beings as well

 

[the state i am in]

8s project their own needs into the world, registering them as threats, so that they don't have to face what is truly inside of them. they harden then to prevent that weakness from getting inside. meanwhile, they always need more bc they are convincing themselves that they get to be immune to being a vulnerable, always incomplete living being. in this way, they can deny the basic nature of reality and prevent themselves from seeing clearly at all.

1s discipline themselves so that they can respond to the world in the way they think they should. they assume responsibility to the point where their performance becomes more real than their own needs. this can slowly evacuate all of their empathy, and they can become fixated on the image ideal of what should be and lose sight of what is really there (standards, standards!).

 

[Virtual ghost]

It doesn't tend to be very hard, 1s are proper, 8s are improper, 1s follow and enforce rules, 8s don't follow rules but enforce their will on others which can look like enforcing rules. 8s are aggressive, 1s aren't but seem to always be pissed, 8s are fun loving, 1s choose work before play, 1s are super-ego focused, 8s are id focused, 1s are self-righteous and moral, 8s are arrogant and a bit sadistic at times

What you have described is 8w7 Sx/So/Sp vs 1w2 So/Sp/Sx (both with average health level), what is perhaps the most stereotypical divide between the two types and on this level it is not hard to see the difference. The problem trully shows itself when you have a 8w9 Sp/So/Sx with average health and 1w9 Sp/Sx/Sp that is slightly to unhealthy side. (especially if they have same MBTI type)





Btw. In relationships forum there is a new thread that I made, try to determine the difference between the two in that kind of environment. Rage of e1 will be completely out of control or the person will simply implode to cynicism.

 

[EJCC]

8s and 1s can actually seem similar in a way... both are likely to smile and pretend that everything is just fine when it's really not (along with 3s and 7s... I'm onto you guys!) because they must maintain their image and both have a nice kettle of anger simmering on the back burner at all times and both are pretty damned protective of "their" people

the differences are though, what the motivations are and the quickness of anger and its dissipation...

8s don't want to be seen as weak, needy or vulnerable and do their best to never be seen as such... they tend to anger more quickly than 1s do in most cases (depends on the 8 and 1 in question really) but they also tend to get over it a lot more quickly... 1s seem to be the masters of hating someone in the long term and holding grudges, which is impressive... an 8 will yell at you and then will happily go out for a coffee or a beer with you afterwards and you'll end up on good enough terms, a 1 will become angry with you and start plotting somewhere they can bury your body without ever getting caught and they will still be planning this when you see them again 3 years later... 1s have a remarkable capacity for hating (ok... I'm being a little dramatic here, but still... damn, 1s!)

1s fear being seen as imperfect and they strive for perfection in a manner that would make Bree from Desperate Housewives quite proud... it doesn't matter what's beneath the surface or if their world is falling apart, a 1 will put a fuck ton of effort into appearing as perfect as possible... 8s don't care about perfection so much as whether someone's challenging their authority. If someone really wants to get under my 1 coworker's skin, all they have to do is question her work and suggest that she might have fucked up somewhere... she will spend hours poring over things to figure out what went wrong and if she really DID screw it up and she will try to hide the fact that's what she's doing as well. If someone wants to get at me they just need to try and undermine me and suggest that they don't take me seriously... that is an evil thing to do

I guess the trademark for a 1, no matter what other influences there are, is that innate fussiness over things that they have (that I always think is adorable )... they just want for things to be perfect, themselves especially, and the effort that they put into making sure that happens is impressive... presenting an image of perfection to the world at any cost... do not find flaws in a 1 or their work and then try and rub it in their face because then you shall experience their wrath... angry 1s are scary and their capacity for grudge holding and hate is remarkable

the trademark for an 8 no matter what is that they do not want to appear weak or have others control them... try to suggest to a nice and relaxed looking 8 that you are going to control some aspect of their existence... and then you might want to get some distance in between the two of you before the fuse runs out on their temper. The 8 will remind you of how they got to their position in a quick and brutal manner before going back to relaxing and you will quite likely not enjoy it.

so that's just a quick and messy comparison that by no means encompasses everything or all individuals... sorry for not directly answering all of your questions, but I have things to do and stuff!

^ Basically this.

The grudge-holding point is a really important distinction. I was talking to [MENTION=7254]Wind Up Rex[/MENTION] (8w9) a while back about choosing friends and holding grudges, and the impression I got was as follows (correct me if I'm wrong, Rex):

- 8s will get angry and then just let it go, right away, almost to the point of it being detrimental -- so they end up continuing to hang out with people and remain friends with people regardless of how infuriating they can be (depending of course on the reasons behind them being infuriating)
- 1s select their friends very carefully, to the point that they take it personally if any of those carefully selected friends disappoint them. If a 1 gets angry enough at a friend, they will consider ditching them altogether. Their trust in them will disappear, and not even they can predict when and how that trust can be regained.

Some other differences I've noticed between myself and 8s (although I relate deeply to them in a lot of ways, including some that [MENTION=20829]Hard[/MENTION] mentioned):

- 8s kind of like it when you challenge them and stand up to them -- it's easier for them to treat competition as an impersonal game. Whereas 1s have a huge ego stake in competition (being correct is the most important thing, after all), and if you stand up to them and it turns out you're right, they'll be very embarrassed. Presumably the level of embarrassment will depend on the 1 but it's pretty common IME for the 1 to be nearly humiliated and to sulk about it for a long time after.
- Sometimes the 1 perfection focus looks a whole lot more like the 5 competence focus than the 8 strength focus. Similar insecurities, similar triggers. I've had several heart-to-hearts with various 5s on the forum about this, as well as my INTP 95x roommate.
- Disintegration points. 1s can get pretty damn emo when they're in a bad place -- self-pitying and raw in a way that an 8 would never dare to be in front of someone else.
- This depends on the 8 and the 1, but one of the trends I've noticed, that helps me distinguish 8/1 fix as well as 8/1 core, is the flavor of their anger. 8 anger feels wrathful and explosive, 1 anger feels judgmental and snarky.

 

[violet_crown]

shit... had a longer response and then accidentally closed the window


so for a brief overview of the differences between an 8 and a 1 from an 8 who has discussed this with 1s and has concluded that they've spent the last 7 years living with a 1 as well (and is good friends with a 1 too... damn, I collect them! )

8s and 1s can actually seem similar in a way... both are likely to smile and pretend that everything is just fine when it's really not (along with 3s and 7s... I'm onto you guys!) because they must maintain their image and both have a nice kettle of anger simmering on the back burner at all times and both are pretty damned protective of "their" people

the differences are though, what the motivations are and the quickness of anger and its dissipation...

8s don't want to be seen as weak, needy or vulnerable and do their best to never be seen as such... they tend to anger more quickly than 1s do in most cases (depends on the 8 and 1 in question really) but they also tend to get over it a lot more quickly... 1s seem to be the masters of hating someone in the long term and holding grudges, which is impressive... an 8 will yell at you and then will happily go out for a coffee or a beer with you afterwards and you'll end up on good enough terms, a 1 will become angry with you and start plotting somewhere they can bury your body without ever getting caught and they will still be planning this when you see them again 3 years later... 1s have a remarkable capacity for hating (ok... I'm being a little dramatic here, but still... damn, 1s!)

1s fear being seen as imperfect and they strive for perfection in a manner that would make Bree from Desperate Housewives quite proud... it doesn't matter what's beneath the surface or if their world is falling apart, a 1 will put a fuck ton of effort into appearing as perfect as possible... 8s don't care about perfection so much as whether someone's challenging their authority. If someone really wants to get under my 1 coworker's skin, all they have to do is question her work and suggest that she might have fucked up somewhere... she will spend hours poring over things to figure out what went wrong and if she really DID screw it up and she will try to hide the fact that's what she's doing as well. If someone wants to get at me they just need to try and undermine me and suggest that they don't take me seriously... that is an evil thing to do

I guess the trademark for a 1, no matter what other influences there are, is that innate fussiness over things that they have (that I always think is adorable )... they just want for things to be perfect, themselves especially, and the effort that they put into making sure that happens is impressive... presenting an image of perfection to the world at any cost... do not find flaws in a 1 or their work and then try and rub it in their face because then you shall experience their wrath... angry 1s are scary and their capacity for grudge holding and hate is remarkable

the trademark for an 8 no matter what is that they do not want to appear weak or have others control them... try to suggest to a nice and relaxed looking 8 that you are going to control some aspect of their existence... and then you might want to get some distance in between the two of you before the fuse runs out on their temper. The 8 will remind you of how they got to their position in a quick and brutal manner before going back to relaxing and you will quite likely not enjoy it.

so that's just a quick and messy comparison that by no means encompasses everything or all individuals... sorry for not directly answering all of your questions, but I have things to do and stuff!

I feel like 1s tend to have more latent anger than 8s. I've never felt the word "anger" was the right word for what goes on with 8s, especially because it's not a continuous state. I've always thought of it more of like "access to violence". Like in a very real way, 8s are always aware of power because violence is always a potential for us. It's funny saying this right after saying that I've never thought about killing someone in another thread (which is true). There's a quote that was on a enneagram site's e8 page about LBJ that I think really captures this:

While Lyndon Johnson was not, as his two assistants knew, a reader of books, he was, they knew, a reader of men--a great reader of men. He had a genius for studying a man and learning his strengths and weaknesses and hopes and fears, his deepest strengths and weaknesses: what it was that the man wanted--not what he said he wanted but what he really wanted--and what it was that the man feared, really feared.

I take for granted that awareness in my interactions with people. It's not so much "what would it feel like to mutilate this person", but what points would need to be pressed and with what kind of force in order to bring them to their knees.

1s channel that energy in a different way. Their orientation is idealistic or at least has some sense of normative vision around it. I think the gut energy for 1s is about shifting circumstances towards that vision. I don't need for everyone else to fall in line with what makes me happy, because they're not my concern. 1s have to keep track because it disrupts the vision if someone falls out of line.

Perhaps it's the difference between the army and the police? You deploy an army if you have something specific to accomplish strategically. They may train and do other stuff in the interim, but they're not constantly fighting. Police exist to keep order, so they have to be constantly aware of violations to that order.

^ Basically this.

The grudge-holding point is a really important distinction. I was talking to [MENTION=7254]Wind Up Rex[/MENTION] (8w9) a while back about choosing friends and holding grudges, and the impression I got was as follows (correct me if I'm wrong, Rex):

- 8s will get angry and then just let it go, right away, almost to the point of it being detrimental -- so they end up continuing to hang out with people and remain friends with people regardless of how infuriating they can be (depending of course on the reasons behind them being infuriating)
- 1s select their friends very carefully, to the point that they take it personally if any of those carefully selected friends disappoint them. If a 1 gets angry enough at a friend, they will consider ditching them altogether. Their trust in them will disappear, and not even they can predict when and how that trust can be regained.

This goes back to the analogy that I made earlier. 8s "mobilize" and "demobilize" pretty rapidly. Once the issue's handled and we've said what we've needed to say, then we can go back to whatever we were doing before.

It's even more marked for me as an 8 and a Te-dom simply because (to paraphrase Tony Zhou) Te is all about what is in the frame and what is not in the frame. The territorial instincts of an 8 when combined with the focus of extraverted thinking make it very clear what our priorities are. We are pretty much oblivious to anything that's not within that circle. It would be interesting to hear if that resonates with [MENTION=4939]kyuuei[/MENTION] and [MENTION=4050]ceecee[/MENTION] as they're intuitive dominants.

But that being the case, the other part of that conversation that we had was that people who are consistently problematic are more likely to just get cut out altogether than become the subjects of grudges. It's very difficult for me to conceive of an "enemy" in any permanent and lasting way, because the point at which most people would "hate" someone, I just tend to void them from my universe.

I've become more aware that I can be, erm, somewhat domineering towards people I'm very close to. I want nothing bad to happen to them, so the only way to protect them is if I control everything. It tends to be how I approach most things that make me feel vulnerable. [MENTION=1180]whatever[/MENTION]'s description of the pet Rottweiler is pretty accurate in that way. I actually think I'm more aggressive when protecting someone else than when defending myself. I feel like I can "take a punch" whereas everyone else is just a delicate little people flower, which is obviously not entirely rational.

 

[á´…eparted]

I've become more aware that I can be, erm, somewhat domineering towards people I'm very close to. It's like I want nothing bad to happen to them so the only way to protect them is if I control everything, which is how I approach things that make me vulnerable. [MENTION=1180]whatever[/MENTION]'s description of the pet Rottweiler is pretty accurate in that way. I actually think I'm more aggressive when feeling protective towards someone else than I am necessarily in defense of myself. I feel like I can "take a punch" whereas everyone else is just a delicate little people flower, which is ridiculous but it's how I feel.

Your whole post is pretty spot on (as is [MENTION=4945]EJCC[/MENTION]'s). There are some individual differences of course but I believe that comes down to MBTI type differences. This part is particularly noteworthy though, because 1's do this as well. At least, I do, and some 1's I come to know do too. That said, I'm not entirely sure if this is just a me thing, or only a small subset due to MBTI type (in particular because I've never seen [MENTION=1449]Magic Poriferan[/MENTION] do this, and if he has I didn't pick on it). Either way 1's can have a very protective streak in them.

If someone goes after one of my people, I WILL defend them, and it's almost always in the form of going after the attacker. When 1's do that we can go a little overboard, actually. It's not always overt, but generally speaking I find it much easier to be angry on some elses behalf, than to be angry at someone doing something to me. It can look 8-like when it is so overt. The key difference though yet again is motivation. I don't even think of it as taking a punch sometimes. Sometimes I'll think of it "I'll take you down even if it means I go down harder". I'm not actually focused on the person on the receiving end (I don't even factor if they're delicate. Sometimes people have gotten upset with me for "fighting their battle" ). The reason being is ultimately I see the attacker as a wrong doer who needs to be punished and prevented from ever doing that again, not that my person can't handle that. Of course if I know they can't well handle it, it will make me double down my efforts.

The army vs police distinction is very spot on, and this highlights it well.

 

[EJCC]

Your whole post is pretty spot on (as is [MENTION=4945]EJCC[/MENTION]'s). There are some individual differences of course but I believe that comes down to MBTI type differences. This part is particularly noteworthy though, because 1's do this as well. At least, I do, and some 1's I come to know do too.

I suppose it's true for me as well, but not for the same reasons that Rex stated. I'm less likely to defend myself because tbh I'm not very good at taking criticism. I get emotional about it sometimes. But if someone else is being attacked, I'm detached enough to be able to strategize how to approach the situation for maximum impact -- hitting those weak spots and going in for the kill.

That being said, I think the most 8-like I've been in the past year or two has been in the wake of my recent promotion. The more I learned about my predecessor and his incompetence, the more furious I've been -- and the more my fury has taken an 8-like power focus. I found myself telling someone that I wouldn't just improve upon his legacy, I would annihilate it. I would leave nothing behind, and build my legacy on top of that scorched earth -- pristine and beautiful in comparison.

Naturally I've also started joking about my "Frank Underwoodian rise to power" at my organization.

 

[Virtual ghost]

What about the thesis that 8s are more unconventional than 1s ?

 

[á´…eparted]

What about the thesis that 8s are more unconventional than 1s ?

Hmm, I think it's actually difficult to say. As a bulk, I'd say 8's tend to be. However, I've been called quite the unconventional person since I was little.

 

[ceecee]

It's even more marked for me as an 8 and a Te-dom simply because (to paraphrase Tony Zhou) Te is all about what is in the frame and what is not in the frame. The territorial instincts of an 8 when combined with the focus of extraverted thinking make it very clear what our priorities are. We are pretty much oblivious to anything that's not within that circle. It would be interesting to hear if that resonates with [MENTION=4939]kyuuei[/MENTION] and [MENTION=4050]ceecee[/MENTION] as they're intuitive dominants.

While I can be focused to the point of other people needing to get in my face and say "HELLO!" it's not like that all the time. I keep a close eye on my sphere, even when I'm super focused.

This goes back to the analogy that I made earlier. 8s "mobilize" and "demobilize" pretty rapidly. Once the issue's handled and we've said what we've needed to say, then we can go back to whatever we were doing before.

Generally this is very true for me. Handle and get on with whatever else needs to be done.

But that being the case, the other part of that conversation that we had was that people who are consistently problematic are more likely to just get cut out altogether than become the subjects of grudges. It's very difficult for me to conceive of an "enemy" in any permanent and lasting way, because the point at which most people would "hate" someone, I just tend to void them from my universe.

I don't usually have the time or the energy to devote to grudges. You'd have to do something breathtakingly bad to me or one of my people for me to mark you as worthy of a grudge or be in my sphere of "hate". It's extremely rare that anyone gets the hate label from me but for the most part, those people become non-people to me. I have no issue with that if you have proved deserving of it. I don't forgive you, I don't feel anger, you just disappear.

I've become more aware that I can be, erm, somewhat domineering towards people I'm very close to. I want nothing bad to happen to them, so the only way to protect them is if I control everything. It tends to be how I approach most things that make me feel vulnerable. @whatever's description of the pet Rottweiler is pretty accurate in that way. I actually think I'm more aggressive when protecting someone else than when defending myself. I feel like I can "take a punch" whereas everyone else is just a delicate little people flower, which is obviously not entirely rational.

These situations are the only time I become domineering to my people - if I'm keeping them from harm. I totally feel like everyone else is a delicate flower but I can take the punch, haha. Of course that is completely irrational - I'm sure my ENFJ can handle himself physically but still - the urge to protect is overwhelming for me and I'm far more aggressive in those situations than I would be in protecting myself.