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Cold war 2.0

Virtual ghost

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Sounds like it might be a good thing. There is nothing inherently wrong with right of center policies. In fact, as too many years of left of center policies has led to many issues and problems, a shift the other way might prove beneficial. Almost necessary at this point. A few terms of right of center policies are needed to offset years of left of center policies to restore some balance towards the center, which is needed IMO.

And your opinion completely missed. In other words if this would push things towards the center then the centrists wouldn't be sending ultimatums that this path of co-operation should not be continued at any cost.


Around Europe people like the ones in the video have 10, 20 or 30 percent in the polls and thus I don't think you understand what is going on around the continent. Since you as Canadian probably can't even imagine that this is happening in 2024 (therefore I strongly suggest that you watch the whole thing, it is quite educational).


 
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SensEye

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And your opinion completely missed. In other words if this would push things towards the center then the centrists wouldn't be sending ultimatums that this path of co-operation should not be continued at any cost.
Hmm. Maybe, maybe not. Admittedly I don't have the level of insight you do into EU politics.

I think there is a lot of fear mongering going on. Sure, far right parties have some kooky ideas (but so do far left parties). It's generally the case when a party with a fairly large amount of support needs to align with a smaller more radical party just to push them over the top, the small party just gets some influence on policy but not overmuch. So a center right party might get pulled a bit more right. It's not the end of the world, but their opponents sure like to paint it as such (hence your reference to center parties freaking out).

Left wing coalitions form all the time, and nobody seems to get overly worked up about it although over time they can result in some serious bad policies (usually related to running huge deficits which eventually end very badly - see Argentina) and long term negative results. From what I can understand, left wing coalitions have been ruling the roost for the last decade or so in EU politics. Now that people are starting feel they have gone too far there is a shift to the right. If a few terms of right of center policies get things back on track, public sentiment will probably move back towards the center, which is generally a good thing. Of course, the left get histrionic about it, and paint any shift to the right as the end of the world, but that's just politics. Let's try a center right coalition in power for a while and see how it works out.
 

Virtual ghost

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Hmm. Maybe, maybe not. Admittedly I don't have the level of insight you do into EU politics.

I think there is a lot of fear mongering going on. Sure, far right parties have some kooky ideas (but so do far left parties). It's generally the case when a party with a fairly large amount of support needs to align with a smaller more radical party just to push them over the top, the small party just gets some influence on policy but not overmuch. So a center right party might get pulled a bit more right. It's not the end of the world, but their opponents sure like to paint it as such (hence your reference to center parties freaking out).

Left wing coalitions form all the time, and nobody seems to get overly worked up about it although over time they can result in some serious bad policies (usually related to running huge deficits which eventually end very badly - see Argentina) and long term negative results. From what I can understand, left wing coalitions have been ruling the roost for the last decade or so in EU politics. Now that people are starting feel they have gone too far there is a shift to the right. If a few terms of right of center policies get things back on track, public sentiment will probably move back towards the center, which is generally a good thing. Of course, the left get histrionic about it, and paint any shift to the right as the end of the world, but that's just politics. Let's try a center right coalition in power for a while and see how it works out.

Yeah, you evidently don't get EU politics. Especially since in this particular example the party with fascist roots is clearly the largest one in the county (and this is the case in more and more countries around the continent). Plus this particular party has smaller partners: one is even more radical party that is friendly towards Russia, while the other one is Center right that was founded by a guy that also called Putin a friend. Therefore in this particular example talking about some kind of moving things towards the center is complete miss. Since in this example we evidently passed the center long time ago.

Also what ruled the EU over the last decade(s) are the centrist. Perhaps with some nudges to the left or right but in general centrism was name of the game. However since in North American there is no genuine left European centrism basically correlates with North American definition of the left for the most part. In other words what is happening now is falling apart of centrism.



France — European Parliament voting intention

Here is one big example, France.
First is evidently the party that has collaborationist roots in the 1940 (black). This is so much of a lead that turning this around in 10 days is impossible. After that you have Macron's centrists that are evidently loosing ground. As a matter of fact they are doing so poorly that it is questionable if they will even come second. In other words the Socialist party that is left leaning party is growing (red). Therefore now it is just 2 percent behind the centrists (the gap that you can actually close in 10 days).
 

SensEye

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Also what ruled the EU over the last decade(s) are the centrist. Perhaps with some nudges to the left or right but in general centrism was name of the game. However since in North American there is no genuine left European centrism basically correlates with North American definition of the left for the most part. In other words what is happening now is falling apart of centrism.
Well, I can't really argue because it seems to me it would be a full time job trying to understand the morass of EU politics. I don't really even know what the scope of European Parliament powers are. To be honest the whole notion of yet another group of politicians having power over me would be worrying. If anyone ever floated the notion of a North American Parliament (one that would include all the central American banana republics) I would be out on the streets in protest. Last thing I would need is those dysfunctional states influencing my life.

However, nothing you have said has really convinced me.

If you feel what is happening is the falling apart of centrism, I would ask why? What has changed that is causing people to become more bipartisan and drift left vs right? Something must be bothering people. If you can answer, I would be able to assess whether the unpopular policies are left, right, or center.

PS> I suspect immigration has a lot to do with it, and I consider open borders a far left policy. Center parties should be firm on the rule of law and controlled, legal immigration. If they have dropped the ball, they deserve to lose voter support.
 
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If I were to ask my cousin why he voted for Trump, the number one reason would probably be immigration.
 

Virtual ghost

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Well, I can't really argue because it seems to me it would be a full time job trying to understand the morass of EU politics. I don't really even know what the scope of European Parliament powers are. To be honest the whole notion of yet another group of politicians having power over me would be worrying. If anyone ever floated the notion of a North American Parliament (one that would include all the central American banana republics) I would be out on the streets in protest. Last thing I would need is those dysfunctional states influencing my life.

However, nothing you have said has really convinced me.

If you feel what is happening is the falling apart of centrism, I would ask why? What has changed that is causing people to become more bipartisan and drift left vs right? Something must be bothering people. If you can answer, I would be able to assess whether the unpopular policies are left, right, or center.

PS> I suspect immigration has a lot to do with it, and I consider open borders a far left policy. Center parties should be firm on the rule of law and controlled, legal immigration. If they have dropped the ball, they deserve to lose voter support.



You are right, understanding European politics is kinda the full time job. However I will try to put it into reasonable amount of text.


The causes of political shifts in Europe are fairly simple in the end. Through globalism and individualism the population and education ratios of Europe become sort of messed up. In other words many things were build and organized on the premise that globalization will go on forever. However as you know things basically snapped pretty hard over the last few years. In other words the situation has come to the point that maintaining the current socio-economic model requires importing plenty of cheap labor from global south. In the melting pot like the US this can perhaps work to some degree. However in Europe this is much harder to pass. I mean just outside of my city there are villages were you can find people that never saw a black person or Asian in person. Therefore pushing multi-culturalim on such people simply doesn't work. Legal or illegal immigration doesn't make that much of differnece to the average Joe. The cultural jump required to digest all of that is just too big in too much places. Not to mention that in my part of Europe we have public festivals that celebrate stopping of Muslim expansion into Europe centuries ago. Something that would be consider quite controversial in a typical multi-cultural country. In other words after 300 years of tradition I doubt that the locals would agree to stop that. There is just too much prde to change any of that.


In other words now we came to "if the economic system requires large shifts in populations then perhaps we have to ditch the system". Which is the part that is confusing to you. In other words pro business centrism requires continuation of the policies and expansion of immigration. Since that is required to maintain the market as it is, the concept that in central to any centrists worldview. In other words in Europe centrism stands for Capitalism. While as you move away from it to the right you have Fascism and what remained from 1940s. While to the left you have Communism, and the more you are going to the left there is more of it. However in North America you have much more narrow political spectrum. Since there just about everyone is a "centrist". Since there is very wide social consensus that liberal capitalism will be the name of the game. While in Europe such consensus was never made to such degree and it is increasingly falling out of fashion. Since it requires mass immigration.


In other words this is why I insists that mass immigration isn't a far left policy (at least in Europe). In other words the genuine far left prefers to ditch liberal market economy. However once you do that there is no point what so ever to introduce mass immigration. My local far left actually sees cutting of migration as a way of fighting "pro market forces". However in North America there is nothing to the left of woke hipsters and thus you are convinced that this is the far left. While in fact you can go much more to the left. However if you would do that you would undermine the North American consensus that liberal capitalism should be the name of the game. While on the other hand I have political options to the left of woke, but they are much more popular then woke (not to mention that they fight woke). For example for that I don't have to look further than my president that greets people at rallies with "Hello Commrades!" (and yes he is Russia friendly person, the country that completely banned LGBT as a topic). I mean to me it is kinda unthinkable that politcians in North America would greet their voters with such a call. Plus don't even make me to go in what kinds of policies are behind that "Hello Commrades!". However the fact is that this part of the sectrum doesn't exist in US/Canada.


So lets get back to the start. In other words more and more people in Europe are unhappy with centrism, since it requires many sacrafices that people aren't really prepared to make. Especially since the consensus never really got too strong over the concept that this should be the political landscape of Europe. In other words the increasing mindest is that on this continent we had way too many wars, dictatorships and attrocities that we should just accept our fate of becoming some kind of global scale multi-cultural melting pot. The concept that is basically ireversable once it happens. This is especially since the short term economic pain that would come out of ditching current paradigms would actually be minor than various periods we went through. In other words people that aren't working office jobs are what is leading this cultural shift away from centrism. Since they are increasingly convinced that they can manage without it. They are far from unified block but they all agree that there has to be large changes. Plus the fact that the Russians are pumping plenty of propaganda on the topic over the internet is something that is evidently speeding up the whole process. While on the other hand centrism requres individialism, free trade and low taxes, the idelogy that is fundamernally unfit to counter hard power of Russia (especially in the case that US decides to go isolationist). Kinda the same can be said about the situation with China's dumping practices (when it comes to trade).


So in the end we came to the point where we are, the crossroads that are election for EU parliament (which will then elect excutive branch of EU). What is the point in time that simply can't be ignored and which will decide where things are going in the long run. The elections are in 10 days so there is no time for anyhing large anymore, we are where we are. In other words if anti-system parties make large gains that will surely speed up the change on national, regional and local levels. Especially since centrism is becoming so unpopular that even the mainstream parties are ditching plenty of what are censidered to be centrist consensus policies. Because they know that not doing that will make sure that anti-system parties will have huge gains. While it is also safe to say that many parties in the mainstream of Europe never really accepted the centrism. For a while centrism was the name of the game so they played along to some degree, but now that the concept is cracking they are the first to move away. What is actually the main reason why all of this is unpredictable. While even the texbook centrists are kinda pragmatically moving away from various centrist policies, while they are also making various coalitions with anti-system parties in lower levels. What is in order to take better staring positions in the new era that is comming. In other words it seems that a fair amount of them realized that things aren't going back to where they were 5 or 10 years ago. What in a sense is true defeat of centrism in Europe.


I tried to keep it somewhat short while still trying to get to the point.
 

SensEye

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Thanks VG.

However, I am still a bit baffled about why so much cheap immigrant labor is required in the EU. Is unemployment chronically low? Aren't there unskilled native workers who need jobs still? Plus, isn't automation removing many of these 'ditch digger' type jobs?

Plus, when I read stories about Britain wanting to deport illegal migrants to Rwanda and or the many stories I read about Greece/Italy being over run with illegal migrants just floating across the Mediterranean that does not sound to me like centrist capitalist politicians desiring them for economic reasons. It sounds like a problem stemming from lax immigration laws/enforcement. The latter is generally a result of what I would refer to as 'bleeding heart liberalism' or wokeness if you will.

We may have to differentiate between your world (eastern bloc EU countries) vs western Europe. When you post stories about the right surging in the Netherlands or France for example, I don't believe the political sensibilities and culture are all that profoundly different from N. America. I can't see those countries needing masses of unskilled labor or not being very progressive on LBTGQ type issues. Or very pro-communist/dictator friendly. Ergo, I still feel any right wing drift in western Europe is due to too much of a tilt to the left and left wing policies making the citizens unhappy.
 

Virtual ghost

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Thanks VG.

However, I am still a bit baffled about why so much cheap immigrant labor is required in the EU. Is unemployment chronically low? Aren't there unskilled native workers who need jobs still? Plus, isn't automation removing many of these 'ditch digger' type jobs?

Plus, when I read stories about Britain wanting to deport illegal migrants to Rwanda and or the many stories I read about Greece/Italy being over run with illegal migrants just floating across the Mediterranean that does not sound to me like centrist capitalist politicians desiring them for economic reasons. It sounds like a problem stemming from lax immigration laws/enforcement. The latter is generally a result of what I would refer to as 'bleeding heart liberalism' or wokeness if you will.

We may have to differentiate between your world (eastern bloc EU countries) vs western Europe. When you post stories about the right surging in the Netherlands or France for example, I don't believe the political sensibilities and culture are all that profoundly different from N. America. I can't see those countries needing masses of unskilled labor or not being very progressive on LBTGQ type issues. Or very pro-communist/dictator friendly. Ergo, I still feel any right wing drift in western Europe is due to too much of a tilt to the left and left wing policies making the citizens unhappy.



For a long time people from Europe on this forum have this problem that they don't have the same definitions of terms as the North American natives. This is the problem for a long time.


On the other hand it is true that you needs to make a difference between western and eastern Europe. However as you say the story is complex and confusing even as it is. Therefore I don't want to complicates things further. After all every of the 27 EU members is basically story for itself that has it's own cards and history. Therefore reasons for immigration are different from place to place: some want to lower the price of labor by introducing extra workers, some places really have low birth rates, in some places people left for more developed parts of EU, some want to be more self independent in manufacturing but they just don't have enough of specific workers in some industries. There really are plenty of reasons why the system wants more workers in some places.


I mean no one really wants illegal immigration since that really brings more problems than it is worth (but some people will defend those people in a sense that they don't have to die at sea). However there are plenty of populations that don't want legal migrations as well (and that is the controversial part). In other words legal migrations are evidently something that is centrist position. However for many even that is too much and therefore nationalistic parties are gaining ground. In some places it is even too controversial that people move freely from one EU member state to another member state (what is current practice). Therefore to these people centrists and wokers are basically the same bunch that has to be kicked out of office (while it is still possible to save their nation state in the terms of numbers).


I know that it pains you that someone wants to kick out the center as well but that is just how it is. In Europe you have to move to center right block in order not to have this openly liberal environment around yourself. But even there you aren't fully shielded. Therefore now we came to the point that many are siding with parties that are often dangerous and are often the remains of some totalitarian system (left ones or right ones). What is because decades ago Europe was full of textbook dictatorships and that was never 100% undone. It was only pushed into the background. In a sense Europe had this ultra developped welfare state and US is paying some security bills just so all these totalitarian ideologies remain supressed (while in return US gets pretty large market access). However then the globalization came and that basically messed up this model of supression. What basically opened the Pandora's box and totalitarian idelogies are again becoming pretty mainstream.


This is especially since pushing of unregulated markets many also see as remake of cuture and thus an attack on them. In a sense mass immigration (legal or illegal) is kinda just one of the aspects of deregulated economy. Since that mindest sees just everyone as potiential asset. What in Europe is often controversial position because into many European nations this colonialist mindset never came before. While in most places all of this is too close to all those dictatorships that never fully went away. So when the globalization and deregulation started to push new way of doing things various barriers started to weaken (and now we are where we are). Especially since many of those totaltarian ideologies give the open right to physically fight you employer if he is working against the nation state. The line that many find to their liking even if that is "problematic" position (to say the least). Plus then the Russians start to troll online with "You are under US occupation!" and in a blink you will get something that is toxic environemnt however you turn it.


However to some degree you are wrong about Western Europe, Western Europe has pretty rich history of explicit left wing politics. Much more than the English speaking world in general. In some of those countries hard left that is kinda revolutionary can get to something like 2nd or 3rd place in elections (or into governing coalitions). While in North America that isn't really the case. You really have much less doubts about market based solutions.
 

Virtual ghost

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It’s not just boomers, young people are voting far right too

Far-right MEPs set to outnumber EPP in next Parliament


I mean if the populist parties manage to create the wave of frustration that they managed to make in the Netherlands a few months ago it can be said that we are just 7 days from the crash of current political order in Europe. Plus it is worth mentioning that the "alarming" detailed data from the first link are from countries that are from western Europe, which are more liberal. What means that in the east there will be even more dramatic results. Especially since there even the mainstream is often "problematic". What indicates that west European mainstream almost surely wouldn't have the numbers to rule on it's own. What means that some paradigms will evidently change when counting of the votes is finished.
 

SensEye

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However to some degree you are wrong about Western Europe, Western Europe has pretty rich history of explicit left wing politics. Much more than the English speaking world in general. In some of those countries hard left that is kinda revolutionary can get to something like 2nd or 3rd place in elections (or into governing coalitions). While in North America that isn't really the case. You really have much less doubts about market based solutions.
Well, this goes back to my original point, that it would do Western Europe some good to move towards the right. Sure it might upset the apple cart somewhat, but that might be for the greater good.

OTOH, I think I get what you are saying, that if Eastern Europe countries move to the right, you might end up with dictators/strongmen (like Orban in Hungary, for example). That's no good either, but in that case, reasonable strategies need to be deployed to make centrist parties more palatable to the general populace. Such as tighter immigration control. If the centrist parties are either too stubborn or too blind to see that, well, they get what they get. But I realize this is not a single issue problem. I'm sure the big picture is both much more complicated and much more nuanced. Regardless, centrist parties need to adapt if they are losing control, or the dictator types will take control. And once they do, they are hard to remove.
 

Virtual ghost

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Well, this goes back to my original point, that it would do Western Europe some good to move towards the right. Sure it might upset the apple cart somewhat, but that might be for the greater good.

OTOH, I think I get what you are saying, that if Eastern Europe countries move to the right, you might end up with dictators/strongmen (like Orban in Hungary, for example). That's no good either, but in that case, reasonable strategies need to be deployed to make centrist parties more palatable to the general populace. Such as tighter immigration control. If the centrist parties are either too stubborn or too blind to see that, well, they get what they get. But I realize this is not a single issue problem. I'm sure the big picture is both much more complicated and much more nuanced. Regardless, centrist parties need to adapt if they are losing control, or the dictator types will take control. And once they do, they are hard to remove.



Nope, the danger that democracy may fall apart in the western Europe as well is pretty high (while east is for the most part already lost cause in that regard).

I posted quite a number of numbers in recent links so I will interpret them to you. In other words here is how young French plan to vote next week.

Centrists: 6%
Communists: 20%
Post-fascists: 32%

The rest are undecided or they will vote for other parties (like wokers, center right or socialists),




But there is more:


Austria — National parliament voting intention

The first party is the party that was founded by ex SS officers in 1950s (if I got the history right). The second are the socialists that are kinda wobbling when it comes to democracy. The third is the party of controversial figure that created a cult of personality. Therefore here there are also questionable elements when it comes to democracy. National elections are this fall.


Belgium — 2024 general election

The first is reactive right (Orban style). The second of hard right that is just a little bit milder then the fist party. The third are Communists. And the elections are next week in parallel with EU federal elections.


Italy — National parliament voting intention

First are post fascists that have roots in 1940s (they are friends with Orban btw), second are socialists, third is anti system populist party that is openly against Ukraine (they signed up the country into China's road and belt initiative when they were in power). Fourth are nationalist right and leader of the party was wearing around T-shirt with Putin's character on it before the war. He also crashed the centrist based coalition from within when the man gave him the wink to do so.

Etc.


In other words I am trying to make a point that you are living in the past and that Europe is in front of some major shifts. Which will evidently hit you across the Atlantic. I mean I never lived in a textbook full scale democracy so I am not really afraid. After growing up in Ukraine stye war zone to me even a stable dictatorship is ok-ish place to live. Therefore it is more that I am amazed at the scale of changes that are knocking at the door all over the place. Not to mention the North American media that are basically completely silent about all of this.
 
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