Aren't we all racists?

[Kasper]

Racism: to arbitrarily attach any predisposition of any kind to that categorized group of people; whether it's true or not has no impact whotsoever. If yeu make ANY pattern recognition with that group that yeu created by yeurself, with anything else, then yeu have been racist in some way shape or form. This pattern may actually be there, it may be accurate, but it's still racist to have set any distinctive behaviour or quality to that 'race' just because they're a member of that race.

As such, yes, we're all racist in that manner.

That's not racism. That's called noticing differences.

Let's use the official definition.

Definitions: Racism
Noun
1. The prejudice that members of one race are intrinsically superior to members of other races.

2. Discriminatory or abusive behavior towards members of another race.

 

[Charmed Justice]

EnFpFer you are missing that many people in the south don't see the confederate flag as racist at all. They see it as something to symbolize the south. I guess a question would be what else is there that symbolizes the south.

I don't care, I'm a yankee, I just know that many people don't look at it as racist. Southern pride can be a different discussion than racism. It's not a definite equal.

Many white people in the South don't view it as racist, but the vast majority of black people in the South do, and the many white people who fly it are well aware of this fact. There are also large groups of whites in the South who also find it offensive.

There is no agreement in the South that the Confederate flag is representative of it, and you can probably count on one hand the number of blacks who will say that the flag represents the South--with many of the Southern states having some of the largest percentages of African Americans in the country. American blacks have been almost entirely Southern historically, so it's pretty sad and rather telling that the chosen symbol of "Southern Pride" is so blatantly polarizing along racial lines. Finding another symbol would be nice.

 

[Katsuni]

Or someone who doesn't define entire races based on individuals they meet.

Pattern recognition is the innate ability, often subconscious, of percieving patterns where there may or may not be any, and then attempting to categorize them based on pre-set categories.

Yeu may state that 'it's up to the individual' but yeu'll also have 'but in general, this seems to be a trend'. Do yeu think black guys have bigger dicks? Racist, regardless of whether it's true or not. It's a pattern attached to a 'race'. As 'races' don't even really exist, yeu had to've taken some qualities to make up that race in the first place to classify them as traits of that race yeu designed.

That being said, being willing to go out of yeur way to avoid trying to define a race by individual's standards is definately one thing, however, if yeu consistantly run into a trend, even if it's just BLIND LUCK, yeur brain will automatically form a pattern recognition of it. The better yeur brain is at pattern recognition, the more outlandish it can make these patterns, and make them with less information available. Essentially, the smarter yeu are, the more likely yeu are to have some form of racist profile, even if yeu go out of yeur way to avoid it.

Personally, I've come to the conclusion that many minorities play the 'race card' to get whot they want. I know not all do this, and probably not even 10% of people do it, but the fact that it happens often enough to be noticed, and loudly and vocal enough by the few who do, means that there is a connection there.

I've made connections that 'most people in the southern states are deeply religious', this's after having dealt with about half the states via a call center, and the upper states never tried to pray for me or convert me over the phone whent hey're supposed to be talking about their cable tv The southern states had a fair number of people do this. I know obviously not all southern americans are like that, I know there's probably more atheists than there are people who go that psycho that they try to convert every single person they meet, but it's those who're the most vocal who stand out. I'll base it on the individual, and let them show themselves one way or another whether they fall into the generalized category or not, but if I know I'll be talking to someone from the bible belt, I'm going to have a few generalized expectations to start with; they may or may not fall under those expectations, and I'll leave that up to their own actions to display, but I am actually racist because if they DO try to convert me on the spot within minutes of meeting me... I'll have actually been kinda halfway expecting it, and won't hold it against them as much as I would other people.

As long as yeu have any 'possible generalities' of any kind, even if yeu don't act on them, and leave it up to the individual, as long as yeu are capable of making a pattern, there's at least some degree of racism in there. It's just not a bad thing like the term implies at all. Our capacity to survive depends upon being able to quickly size up those around us and make evaluations rapidly to keep us from getting into massive trouble; physical appearance is one tool we have at our disposal to try to do so. If we didn't try to quickly categorize people, we'd never get anything done, or if we did, it'd be disasterous.

If yeu see a mexican person, do yeu tiptoe around the topic of illegal aliens? Or try to avoid the topic altogeather? Yeu've just assumed they may have a strong opinion on it, BAM yeu're racist right there. Did yeu avoid saying a joke yeu thought was funny because yeu thought they might be offended? BAM racist! How about just idly wondering if yeu should mention yeu're going to taco bell for lunch and asking if they want any, or if they'd take it poorly, or if yeu should just treat them like everyone else? The fact that yeu even considered this at all... BAM racist.

It's not bad, it's how we survive. If yeu are politically correct, the mere process of being so is racist, sexist, etc at it's very core.

Being sensitive to another's race or gender IS racist/sexist, only by treating someone EXACTLY THE SAME AS EVERYONE ELSE REGARDLESS OF THE FALLOUT, can yeu not be racist. If yeu call a woman "hey man", yeu're probably going ot get in trouble for it (I do this myself though, and have gotten called on it a few times, I just use 'man' as generic statement don't ask me why I don't know XD ) but it is actually less sexist than calling her 'maam', which implies yeu think yeu should think of her differently than a man.

In short, yes, yeu need to do it. It's not a bad thing. If yeu didn't, yeu'd be incapable of any social interaction at all.

 

[Katsuni]

That's not racism. That's called noticing differences.

Let's use the official definition.

Definitions: Racism
Noun
1. The prejudice that members of one race are intrinsically superior to members of other races.

2. Discriminatory or abusive behavior towards members of another race.

Prejudice; An opinion or judgment formed without due examination.
Note that there's no way to really get due examination of most of the things we have to form opinions on in daily life without deep intimate conversation.

To state 'superior' is very vague as well, as it can apply to anything from 'less likely to be offended' to 'arrogant/stupid/slothful'. If I assume that talking to a black person about obama, that their opinion of race MAY apply there, I'm assuming that they are inferior in their relation to how they percieve obama as a person and as a form of government, and are biased in their opinion. A black person will either be more critical of obama, or more forgiving, for good or ill, chances are virtually guaranteed that there'll be some connection there whether they want it or not, even if only because people keep bugging them about it "dude yer black whot do yeu think of obama!?" crap constantly. But the fact that yeu've assumed that they may have an opinion because of that, is by definition assumming that they are morally inferior to someone who wasn't black. Superior's such a vague term sadly, especially since ANY sliding scale on ANY topic applies...



Next off, discriminatory practices can be beneficial and negative. Interacting with someone in ANY way different is discriminatory, just going out of yeur way to ask a black person about obama while trying really hard to avoid mentioning anything against black people in the conversation at all, means that yeu discriminated against them in a way by slanting the conversation.

Discrimination: unfair treatment of a person or group on the basis of prejudice.

Yeu'd be prejudiced to think they would be offended by a racial joke; yeu'd be discriminatory to actually deprive them of the joke. This isn't a bad thing! Otherwise yeu'd just piss off EVERYONE yeu came into contact with >.>

 

[Kasper]

Pattern recognition is the innate ability, often subconscious, of percieving patterns where there may or may not be any, and then attempting to categorize them based on pre-set categories.

In short, yes, yeu need to do it. It's not a bad thing. If yeu didn't, yeu'd be incapable of any social interaction at all.

Everyone notices differences, we are different, culture and customs make us different and I love that fact, noticing these differences however, is not a form of racism unless we pass judgment on it and consider them inferior/superior to others because of race and/or discriminate against someone for this reason. You're warping the meaning of racism.

If yeu see a mexican person, do yeu tiptoe around the topic of illegal aliens? Or try to avoid the topic altogeather? Yeu've just assumed they may have a strong opinion on it, BAM yeu're racist right there.

About the only thing I'd think/say if I met a Mexican would be your country wins at food.

That's not racist, I just love nachos.

Discrimination: unfair treatment of a person or group on the basis of prejudice.

Yeu'd be prejudiced to think they would be offended by a racial joke; yeu'd be discriminatory to actually deprive them of the joke. This isn't a bad thing! Otherwise yeu'd just piss off EVERYONE yeu came into contact with >.>

I'm offended by racist jokes. I discriminate against my own possibility of offence?

 

[01011010]

Yeu'd be prejudiced to think they would be offended by a racial joke; yeu'd be discriminatory to actually deprive them of the joke. This isn't a bad thing! Otherwise yeu'd just piss off EVERYONE yeu came into contact with >.>

This doesn't make any sense. Just to be clear, I owe it to other ethnic groups to make distasteful jokes about them, otherwise I'm likely to piss them off?

What is up with the conscious misspelling of you?

 

[Magic Poriferan]

In my experience, America is much more classist/cliquish than racist.

Then again, I'm not exactly from the South...

I say all civilizations discriminate more by class than anything else.

 

[Haphazard]

I say all civilizations discriminate more by class than anything else.

Exactly. I'd say America seems more racist than it actually is because of this.

 

[reason]

I've seen some people in this thread state things like "children are not racist", and that makes racism unnatural.

Children don't have pubic hair, either. It must be unnatural.

 

[lowtech redneck]

Of course. And further, rather than losing who he was, he may have very well gained a more expansive identity.

More likely, the personal characteristics that attracted you to him, buttressed by his upbringing which in turn was nurtured and reinforced by his accumulated (generational as well as spacial) cultural environment, would be greatly diminished by a decision to throw away such an emotionally ingrained link to said culture and upbringing. In any event, are you really comfortable stigmatizing him in the eyes of strangers as a bigot who probably belongs to the Klan? That's, uh, exactly what you did in your first response to my post....

 

[Laurie]

Exactly. I'd say America seems more racist than it actually is because of this.

Agreed

 

[Charmed Justice]

Exactly. I'd say America seems more racist than it actually is because of this.

America's class system has historically been based on race. How do the two get separated?

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

America's class system has historically been based on race. How do the two get separated?

When race stops being indicative of class.

 

[Magic Poriferan]

America's class system has historically been based on race. How do the two get separated?

Because of all the impoverished white people, would be my wild guess.

Yes, there is a significant correlation between race and lower cases. There are also other correlations become demagraphics and lower class (or income, as we have to account for females vs males). The clear pattern here is that class is something bigger. It is used as a tool of prejudice. Demographics that are disliked are shoved into or kept in poverty. But the fact that class seperation is the main way of screwing demographics just goes to show that class is the ultimate division.

EDIT: I'd like to add that class also takes priority over everything else. If you are a black woman, you have significantly lower odds of being rich, but if you do become rich, you have a better social position than a poor white man.

 

[Charmed Justice]

More likely, the personal characteristics that attracted you to him, buttressed by his upbringing which in turn was nurtured and reinforced by his accumulated (generational as well as spacial) cultural environment, would be greatly diminished by a decision to throw away such an emotionally ingrained link to said culture and upbringing.

He was no more Southern than anyone else I knew growing up, and I love Southerners in general. What attracted me to him was his laugh, the fact that he was silly, he reminded me of a giant teddy bear, he played music really well, we both loved Texas Roadhouse, and we had lots of mutual friends. We def weren't friends because he played Dixie on his horn, or sympathized with the Confederacy; we were friends in spite of that. And by the way, we're still friends 15 years later, and he doesn't play Dixie on his horn anymore. He's still the same guy.

Also, what's the Black Southern equivalent to the Confederate Flag? What are we missing out on? Let me know.

In any event, are you really comfortable stigmatizing him in the eyes of strangers as a bigot who probably belongs to the Klan? That's, uh, exactly what you did in your first response to my post....

My point was simply that I don't think that there are millions of white people out there desperately digging for the courage to play Dixie on their truck horn, or to wear a Dixie Outfitters t-shirt, any more so than there are millions of whites who secretly harbor the desire to join the Klan. I've heard the "afraid" argument used by many organizations(the NAAWP, for example), which is why I made that extreme example. The argument is quite familiar.

It's my belief--and my experience--that enough white people have black friends and family members, or other people of color close enough to them, that they would be more sensitive about the issue. There are white people who don't have people of color close to them, but still understand just the same. It's not about guilt or pity(both totally unnecessary,pointless, and unproductive), it's about empathy. It's also about dredging up the past(or not), which so frequently blacks in the South get scapegoated for("Blacks should get over slavery. It was in the past"); and yet, all a black Southerner needs to do to be confronted with that very past is walk outside their homes and see whites proudly waving their own version of it in their faces. Something's amiss.

EDIT: I'd like to add that class also takes priority over everything else. If you are a black woman, you have significantly lower odds of being rich, but if you do become rich, you have a better social position than a poor white man.

That depends on what you're talking about really. You're comparing apples and oranges: a really rich black woman, to a really poor white man.

You would need to compare the social position of a really rich black woman to a really rich white woman, or a really rich white man to a really rich black man, in order to make an accurate comparison about how race effects class in our society, or determine which one takes precedence.

 

[The Decline]

Class, gender, and race will always be deeply embedded into our institutions due to a cultural heritage of discrimination on these variables. We seem to be continually improving as far as racist discrimination goes, but we still have a long way to go. Why is this? Wealth impoverishment of blacks dating back to slavery has prevented the black race as a whole from catching up to the white race on any scale of social opportunity. Whites ultimately dominate the upper classes and will not allow this historical trend to suffer.

edit: this was post 666 of mine

 

[Magic Poriferan]

You would need to compare the social position of a really rich black woman to a really rich white woman, or a really rich white man to a really rich black man, in order to make an accurate comparison about how race effects class in our society, or determine which one takes precedent.

That gives us no contrast between wealth. What good is that?

Okay, here. Of course a rich white person would be a little better off than an equally rich black person, because there are racial overtones in this country. A rich white person would have it better than a poor white person, of course. But a rich black person would have it better than a poor white person. This means, the advantage given by class is greater than the advantage given by race.

 

[Charmed Justice]

Okay, here. Of course a rich white person would be a little better off than an equally rich black person, because there are racial overtones in this country. A rich white person would have it better than a poor white person, of course. But a rich black person would have it better than a poor white person. This means, the advantage given by class is greater than the advantage given by race.

The advantage given by race is far more reaching and more prevalent than the advantage given by socioeconomic class, so I'd still contend that it is in fact, greater. Rich blacks are a very small minority group.

I like Blalock's position that we have to consider the effects of race, class, and the interplays between the two when we discuss the potential for overall survival or success in Western society. Personally, I believe race to be the most important factor, but class combines with that and gender to create what amounts to a triple jeopardy for lower class women of color.

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

It's easy and effortless to play the victim.

What Should African-American Studies Students Learn? | The New Republic

 

[Magic Poriferan]

The advantage given by race is far more reaching and more prevalent than the advantage given by socioeconomic class, so I'd still contend that it is in fact, greater. Rich blacks are a very small minority group.

I know but, that's aside from the point. The point is that class iteslf is the punishment. How do you know blacks are discriminated against? The most prevalent way is their class disadvantage. If we stopped being prejudiced toward blacks, they would likely become less poor. In the mean time, being poor would still really suck for anyone that happens to be poor. You see what I'm getting at here?

Maybe another way to demonstrate this is that acceptence of racial, ethnic, and religious demographics change. Take the Irish Catholics. There was a time that they were so disliked in this country that establishments that hired blacks wouldn't hire the Irish. But they are not so bad off in America now. The change in their acceptence created a change in their class. Their class didn't get better while they stayed where they were.

It's like when Socrates(really Plato) said that Democracy was the worst government because it always lead to Tyranny. This really confused me. Why not just say that Tyranny is the worst form of government then, if it is technically the negative outcome state that makes Democracy so bad?
I'm using the same reasoning here. The worst thing about disrimination, is the lower class status, the poverty. Therefore, the lower class is really the worst thing, is it not?