[ESFJ] Are All ESFJs Like This?

[substitute]

I used to have problems with ESFJ's, my mom and sister being two cases in point... but lately I've had a few epiphanies that've changes my attitude towards them completely, and I've learned to really appreciate what it is they do, the way they are and approach life, and to realize that much of it can apply to me.

I've realized that when I've complained in my life about feeling lonely and not feeling connected to anyone, always feeling very detached and as though others are detached to me, it's because I've turned my nose up at those "mundane things" that people want to talk about, and in the past, sorta snottily decided that unless people want to dive into cosmos-altering conversations then they're not worth my time.

However, my little sister (an ENFJ) started one of those private message thread type things you can make on Facebook, where several people are invited to participate. She included in it all the people in our family that have Facebook accounts and called it the Happy Christmas Thread. I thought, what the heck, it's Christmas, and I joined in. And I learned loads of stuff about the personalities of some of my relatives that I've known (or thought I knew) all my life. Though everyone was just talking about what they were having for dinner, and where they were going tomorrow, and how much weight their baby has put on this week, and what favours they were going to put on the tables at their wedding in May, I found it curiously enjoyable. And I felt the most included I've ever felt in the family, the most 'part of things' ever. And warm, very warm.

However, at the time my sister started the thread, she had fallen out with my brother, so he wasn't included. To cut a long story short, a new thread was made with him included in it - but he just bitched and moaned about how pissed off he felt that he kept having his important video game interrupted by Facebook messages arriving, and moaned about how pointless and mundane the conversations were - "inane" was the word he used, in a way that said he thought the people having the conversations were themselves inane and not worth his time.

Everyone else felt pissed with him because we'd started the new thread because we felt bad for excluding him and wanted him to be with us. We'd all found a new-found closeness through being able to participate in this thread as though were were all together in one room - something that happens very rarely because we're all widely dispersed around the globe. We felt like a family again and it was wonderful and we wanted to include him in it, but he bitched like a whore and asked to be re-excluded.

Seeing the way he behaved made me see myself in the past, and what a jerk I've been. And it made me realize that I've excluded myself from everything, through pure snottiness and just... well, no excuse really at all for it, but suffice it to say that all the loneliness and whatever that I've felt is just karma really, for the way I behaved towards other people.

A realization came to me, and I wrote in the thread these words to my brother, feeling at one and the same time both embarrassed at how I was beginning to sound like one of those sickeningly sentimental forwarded chain letters you get sometimes, and yet compelled to write anyway because of what I knew was the astounding truth of what I was saying:

"I'm always interested in the little things... it's those little things that you share with people when you see them every day... they don't really matter enough to write about (at least you don't think they do), but if you're with someone every day and see them all the time you just get this steady stream of bits and pieces, the mundane everyday things of their life, and they get yours. That's how you keep in touch with someone, and track the gradual changes in them as they learn and grow. It's when we're separated from someone for a long time, that's when we lose touch and find we hardly know each other any more... because we haven't shared those little things. People only write when they think they have something worth writing - but a lot of people think only the 'big' things are worth writing about... great, so after ten years I know if someone's married, how many kids they have and their kids' names, I even know where they went on holiday or that their friend died last week... but if I met up with them I wouldn't know what to say because I don't know WHO THEY ARE any more. And knowing those things about someone far away doesn't stop you feeling alone. It's when you know the little things, that's when you feel a part of their life. Those fundamental things that are what life is all about, what memories are made of. Little things "

And it's those little things that ESFJ's do and take care of so naturally, so well. When I think of my ISTP step-dad, and how uncommunicative he is and how he'd have no social life and no family life at all and be generally very lonely and isolated if he didn't have my mom there doing all the arrangements and keeping in touch with people... and I think, y'know, how vulnerable he is to becoming a sad and lonely old man if she dies before him because he's unlikely to continue to make the same efforts she does... and I think about how he probably won't die a sad and lonely old man, because my ExFJ sisters will see to it that we all keep in touch...

Well, I think thank God for ExFJ's. They rock.

 

[proteanmix]

LOL, I agree with you as well. Which is why my first statement was maybe he should go to a forum, like INTPc, where his reception will be less chilly and responses that align more with his expectations OR reframe his rant into something we can work with. I guess I'm just always aware/anticipating the way someone is going to respond to me so I'm more careful about who I rant and to and how I voice my frustration.

 

[Domino]

I have to say - there's venting and then there's calling someone you don't like fat and blowzy in a public forum where she can't defend herself.

The OP stands in stark contrast of Sub's and Cafe's. What Sub and Cafe said is balanced. That's a vent. The OP was meant to be sniping (read: acting like a sniper). That's not venting. That's being boorish.

 

[FFF]

So this has turned into the ESFJ bitching thread.

Mission accomplished, ImNotTooPopular.

This might be the most popular thread I've ever started.

 

[FFF]

My grandmother was an ESFJ, probably not a very healthy one, and this sounds very familiar. She loved me like a daughter and I owe her a great deal, but she wanted to control everything I did. In particular, she wanted me to spend all my time with her and she was jealous of anyone else I spent time with, including my mother! If I didn't do exactly what she wanted me to, she'd pretend to cry in front of me, talk about me on the phone to her friends in front of me as if I wasn't there, etc. Her list of manipulation techniques was exhaustive, and they were all pretty much ineffective on me.

Yes, this is what I'm talking about.

 

[miss fortune]

this is like saying that Hitler may be one of the most popular people in history since the history channel and historians have so many shows and books about him

 

[FFF]

this is like saying that Hitler may be one of the most popular people in history since the history channel and historians have so many shows and books about him

The popular thing was a joke although it may be true.

 

[Jae Rae]

For some reason John Lennon comes to mind.

Jae Rae

 

[Athenian200]

this is like saying that Hitler may be one of the most popular people in history since the history channel and historians have so many shows and books about him

In one sense he was. Notoriety is a type of popularity. I mean, practically everyone remembers who Hitler was, do they not?

Popularity doesn't necessarily mean positive attention. Infamous people can also be popular. And I have a feeling that the starter of this thread's name is probably "mud" in a few people's minds now.

 

[ThatsWhatHeSaid]

So, now I end up working with this fat ESFJ girl, and she is so annoying. She basically goes up to anyone and starts talking about simple, boring, everyday stuff like her roomate stealing her toilet paper and how she likes to eat cake.

She's always quick to come up with stupid judgements (notice the SJ) about me. She'll ask me to do stuff because she's too lazy to do it herself, and if I don't oblige, she says stuff like I'm mean. Maybe she's right when she says I'm rude, but I'm an INTP. DEAL WITH IT! If you want fluff or sensitivity, go talk to some F type.

Lots of people rely on their type to excuse themselves from responsibilities to improve who they are, in this case, being caring and compassionate. INTPs are usually fanatical about self-improvement. If you use your type as a crutch, you'll end up short-changing yourself. FWIW, I'm INTPish too.

My ENTP friend and I discussed how ESFJs have this way of trying to manipulate people with their stupid judgements, but how it doesn't work with us. Personally, when ESFJ girl says I'm mean, I just stand there thinking, "You're an idiot."

I know better than to tell her anything personal or meaningful because after two or three days, everyone in the whole damn store is gonna know about it. So pretty much I just stand there and mirror her level of interaction, by saying no more than boring everyday crap. Of course, sometimes we need to talk about work related stuff, so that works out okay.

If I was in your shoes, I would make a joke out of her shallow/bs talk while steering the conversation into Ne/Ti land. Once there, keep it there and take control of the conversation. If she tries to take it back to shallow-talk, fold her comments back into your train of thought. Don't let go. Like "omg, that's so totally insane! Honestly... what's the big deal? Why do people do [x, y, z]? Do you think it's a [territorial, selfish, automatic, etc] reaction?"

I have a friend who does this, too. When she talks, I find it interesting that she cares so much about petty drama. I analyze the dynamics of what's going on, or analyze her. When she finishes, I take control of the conversation like I said above. She knows to expect this from me now.

She also is a nice relief from all the introverted processing I do throughout the day, so I appreciate her for that, too.

Yesterday, she asked me for a ride home later and my automatic response was NO. Then she said something about not giving a "friend" a ride home. I almost told her, "You're not my friend. You're someone who stands in front of me and goes blah blah blah." Really, this girl doesn't know a thing about me. I haven't even mentioned a thing to her about my interest in personality theories.

Since she's your boss, you know you can't say that. I think you should mention your interest in MBTI. If you paint yourself to be a high-class intellectual (even mentioning that you hate small talk and trivialities) she'll get the hint and leave you alone.

I don't believe in shaming people.

 

[heart]

There's an easy way to avoid the ride home thing, give her a ride home and discuss some really dry philosophy the whole way, if she tries to change the subject don't let her. Maybe she's be so bored she won't ask again.

 

[substitute]

...having said all of that (my previous post), I do sympathize with people who get on the receiving end of bad Fe from unhealthy ESFJ's... it's because I experienced that so many times myself that I had so many issues with ESFJ's before I had my li'l epiphany and figured out why it's worth it.

To be fair, although the OP doesn't give enough information for us to agree wholesale with the judgement, it also doesn't give us enough to disagree as strongly as some people are, or to judge ImNotTooPopular quite as harshly as some people are. Yes, I do think there are better ways of handling the problem than bitching on a forum, and yeah, INTPc would probably have been a better place to do it, if at all.

But like I say, if this person genuinely is getting a lot of bad ESFJ attention, then I can understand the need to bitch... and I can also understand not wording the OP properly... I've done it myself in the past, a hasty rant that hasn't given enough information, then having to scramble to retroactively fill in the blanks when the judgements about me start pouring in... it can be quite distressing when someone's already very stressed, to add more misunderstanding and judgement into the scene.

If I were going to judge (though I'm not, this is just "if pushed to it") ImNotTooPopular from the OP and this thread, I'd say the person is probably young, hasty, inexperienced, stressed out and somewhat socially inept. And a bit arrogant. Those, to me, aren't qualities that I can hate someone for... I sympathize with them more than anything else, and thinking about myself both now and in former stages of my life, I can relate to them!! But then, that's me... always looking for the root cause rather than bang my head against the symptom.

ImNotTooPopular - why do you find it so stressful to have someone talk to you about mundane things? I do find that quite hard to understand... she's probably just trying to be your friend...

Why is your automatic response to her asking for a ride home an emphatic no? Is it simple impatience? Can you not bear to just smile and nod and tune her out for a few minutes so as to help a fellow human being? Or better yet, reciprocate with some mundane stuff of your own? Can you not understand that someone arbitrarily refusing to give someone a ride does make them look mean?

I know an ISFJ girl who refuses to give rides to people she doesn't like, purely for that reason. She will say 'no' to someone even when the place they want a ride to is directly on the route she's taking anyway, and she gives lame excuses about how she wants to take a different route so as to avoid this or that set of traffic lights, and lets someone walk home in the dark and cold. It makes her look really petty and selfish... most decent and mature people can usually manage to grit their teeth through a car journey so as not to be an asshole... I know when I do that - give rides to people I'm not too fond of - it's not really for them but my own self-respect that I do it, cos I know if I let myself be petty about it, I'll lose some of my self-respect.

Could it be that because you lack the motivation, for some reason, to tell her openly that you don't appreciate her chatter, and to ask her to leave you in peace, you're resorting to passive aggression to get your own back at her for something she doesn't even know she's doing wrong?

 

[INTJMom]

The more you guys pick on ImNotTooPopular, the more sorry I feel for him.
It's like almost everyone is bullying him.
Sure the OP came across as young, arrogant and judgmental. Most people do when they're frustrated. He came in here looking to have his frustration validated, and instead he's getting is a lecture about what a horrible person he is.
How would YOU feel?

It's not really fair for people to expect an INTP to not be frustrated with that particular person.
People who talk too much and impose themselves in your life without respecting the boundaries are considered rude by all people everywhere! Nowhere in the rule books of polite society does it say "feel free to talk too much about whatever gushes to your mind, and oh, make sure you don't breathe, so the other person can't get a word in edgewise." Pardon me, but that is NOT a formula for success in life.

Maybe folks would do better to imagine how he feels when this person does this to him, and perhaps offer a little bit of understanding and validation of his feelings. Try to overlook the fact that he was a little coarse in the presentation of his feelings and point of view. Isn't that what you want people to do for you, when you are ranting and raving?

Maybe it's just an INTx thing. Because I get it.

 

[INTJMom]

...
Could it be that because you lack the motivation, for some reason, to tell her openly that you don't appreciate her chatter, and to ask her to leave you in peace, you're resorting to passive aggression to get your own back at her for something she doesn't even know she's doing wrong?

This is a good point but some people have a hard time with this. I know I do. A lot of it has to do with my upbringing.

If I don't have a planned response already decided upon ahead of time, I'm surely not going to come up with it on the spur of the moment. These are techniques people have to learn. At least I do.

 

[INTJMom]

I do too, and considering that I'm Fe-dominant the pressure to respond politely and courteously is probably stronger with me than it is on you. In fact a person like that sits two cubes away from me at work. But when I find myself in situation like that I try to take my weakness and turn it into a strength by politely excusing myself the person if it's a short term contact, or if it's someone I have to see daily finding a way to get along with them, and if that can't be found avoiding them. There's always a way to deal with someone and I'm quite exhaustive in my search to find it.

I entirely agree with you, but it appears to me that this is a new situation in his life, and he hasn't had time to work up a strategy yet. He's still in phase one where he realizes he's frustrated.

But I entirely agree with you that he will have to work out one of the strategies you suggest, or a combination, in order to keep his peace of mind.

 

[Totenkindly]

... Maybe she's right when she says I'm rude, but I'm an INTP. DEAL WITH IT!

...And maybe you're right when you say she's annoying, but she's an ESFJ. DEAL WITH IT TOO!

Well, look at that. Who would have thought it goes both ways?

Furthermore, BMI has nothing to do with MBTI.

Oh, this is a tagline waiting to happen.

I've noticed that, in general, INTPs seem to revile their shadow type more than the other types do.

Oh, GREAT -- don't go dragging all the INTPs into this now!

I do too, and considering that I'm Fe-dominant the pressure to respond politely and courteously is probably stronger with me than it is on you. In fact a person like that sits two cubes away from me at work. But when I find myself in situation like that I try to take my weakness and turn it into a strength by politely excusing myself the person if it's a short term contact, or if it's someone I have to see daily finding a way to get along with them, and if that can't be found avoiding them. There's always a way to deal with someone and I'm quite exhaustive in my search to find it.

The process you describe is effective and responsible... and also not very easy for some types to practice, if they're naturally flexers, more passive, not good with closure, etc. Definitely it is a skill for people of all types to learn, but to have to act that way to deal with that sort of person causes anxiety/exhaustion.

(This is probably why IP types are prone to come here and bitch about EJ types, rather than just dealing with the problem. The IP will internalize and keep flexing and want the EJ to stop...and the EJ won't stop, because they don't realize they are violating the IP's boundaries, until the IP pushes back in EJ fashion. And usually at that point the IP is furious and in no mood to be kind. In contrast, if EJs have a problem with IPs, they have no trouble taking the bull by the horns and resolving it straightaway; they don't need to go have a gripefest instead.)

this is like saying that Hitler may be one of the most popular people in history since the history channel and historians have so many shows and books about him

Very nice -- we made it Post #46 before Godwin's Law was introduced.

 

[INTJMom]

There's an easy way to avoid the ride home thing, give her a ride home and discuss some really dry philosophy the whole way, if she tries to change the subject don't let her. Maybe she's be so bored she won't ask again.

You are so naughty!

Great idea!

 

[CzeCze]

I've been reading the replies (yes *gasp* ALL of them!) and I have to say

1) I don't see what's so bad with ESFJ's. I couldn't even tell you how ESFJs 'typically act'. I have not identified anyone in my life as ESFJ, I probably know some, I'm just not aware of their type

2) OP, I'm sure it has sunk in that people (in general) don't like type bashing here and people are very aware and on the look out for bias and stereotype. (INTPs greatly outnumber us poor EPs and EJs y'know.)

So let's move on to:

3) The woman's behavior doesn't sounds 'unhealthy'' or outrageous to me. She's a young chatty girl. Big deal. You work in retail right? Welcome to your working life, until you change jobs. Retail sales is full of teenaged and young women who are chatty, extroverted, and like to talk a lot of chit chat. That's why they are in retail.

If you can't stand that, I would suggest moving to inventory, warehouse, or shipping/receiving. They are pretty much lateral moves from retail sales.

I worked full-time retail after college and was the oldest non-management employee and the only one to have completed my schooling. Everyone else was college age and younger and the maturity level showed that. This isn't a diss to them, hell I'm pretty good with fittin in with youngins and overall I appreciated the experience.

But man people bitched and moaned and 1/2 the store didn't want to work and had this very off-putting arrogance in regards to different personality types that is only born from the ignorance of youth. 1/2 the employees never took responsibility for their actions and attitudes (including when they were caught stealing) and would only blame other people.

Anyhow, it seems to me this girl who you find annoying is your peer.

She seems very light-hearted and jokey and if you can bring yourself to be jokey back to her you can comfortably get out of giving her rides, etc. Or every time she tries to talk to you, you can listen for a minute and then say, "Sorry, I have to restock the shelves/clean the store/check the display etc."

If you don't let her know that you don't want her talking to you, you can't blame her for continuing to talk to you. It's your responsbility to let people know they are overstepping your boundaries, otherwise it's your problem not theirs. Otherwise, you'll continue to be annoyed with no end in sight. And if she's not doing something intentionally to harass you, can you really blame her for anything? She has no idea that you don't like her behavior.

 

[substitute]

This is a good point but some people have a hard time with this. I know I do. A lot of it has to do with my upbringing.

If I don't have a planned response already decided upon ahead of time, I'm surely not going to come up with it on the spur of the moment. These are techniques people have to learn. At least I do.

Yes, I know, I understand and sympathize with that, I was just asking for more details and facts about the situation before launching off on an advice gig that might turn out to be totally bum. It was a genuine enquiry, not a sarky, rhetorical question. Because I agree (and basically said before you lol ) with what you said about people being overly harsh.

 

[INTJMom]

Yes, I know, I understand and sympathize with that, I was just asking for more details and facts about the situation before launching off on an advice gig that might turn out to be totally bum. It was a genuine enquiry, not a sarky, rhetorical question. Because I agree (and basically said before you lol ) with what you said about people being overly harsh.

WELL! SOMEbody's just a little cheeky today!