APA Guidelines for Men and Boys

[Doctor Cringelord]

I thought there was an interesting discussion in the comment section here:

Men who believe that masculinity is toxic or harmful have lower self-esteem and worse metal health than men who embrace their masculinity and see it as a good thing : LeftWingMaleAdvocates

Personally, I think masculinity and femininity exist on a wide spectrum and can't be narrowed down to one-size-fits-all definitions. The APA guidelines for either sex are based in bad, ideology-driven science.

If some men respond well to more feminine ways of handling emotions, then there's nothing wrong with that. I'm not saying we should force them into a box made exclusively for men because they happen to be men.
However we also shouldn't create a box designed primarily for women (intentionally made that way or not) and then expect to be able to shove men in it.
We can have a spectrum or whatever. And it's not like there aren't going to be women out there who respond better to the masculine side of things compared to the feminine side of things.
The male vs female thing is only one factor, or maybe even a starting point. But it's not a rigid destination.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

I thought there was an interesting discussion in the comment section here:

Men who believe that masculinity is toxic or harmful have lower self-esteem and worse metal health than men who embrace their masculinity and see it as a good thing : LeftWingMaleAdvocates

Personally, I think masculinity and femininity exist on a wide spectrum and can't be narrowed down to one-size-fits-all definitions. The APA guidelines for either sex are based in bad, ideology-driven science.

Do we know that correlation equals causation here?

 

[Doctor Cringelord]

Do we know that correlation equals causation here?

No, we don’t know. It’s a charged post title but if you scroll down there’s some good debate in the comments thread. That was my point in posting it

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

No, we don’t know. It’s a charged post title but if you scroll down there’s some good debate in the comments thread. That was my point in posting it

I mean, it could be that people who view masculinity as negative have had bad experiences from not conforming to certain masculine norms, hence the depression and low self-esteem; conversely, the people who view at positive might have not have had bad experiences, and thus not have depression and low self-esteem.

 

[Coriolis]

I mean, it could be that people who view masculinity as negative have had bad experiences from not confoI warming to certain masculine norms, hence the depression and low self-esteem; conversely, the people who view at positive might have not have had bad experiences, and thus not have depression and low self-esteem.

I was thinking along similar lines. The notion of "toxic masculinity" doesn't mean masculinity is inherently toxic, but rather that there are expressions of it that are. Same with femininity, though the term "toxic femininity" doesn't seem to be in common use. Being forced into an ill-fitting gender role seems likely to encourage depression and low self-esteem, whatever the specifics.

Personally, I think masculinity and femininity exist on a wide spectrum and can't be narrowed down to one-size-fits-all definitions. The APA guidelines for either sex are based in bad, ideology-driven science.

I have said this, too. There are many ways to be feminine, or masculine, or as most of us are, some combination. I think of the continuum as two archetypes, with individual humans embodying them in different proportions. Even then, though, the archetypes will vary with factors such as culture and time period.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

I was thinking along similar lines. The notion of "toxic masculinity" doesn't mean masculinity is inherently toxic, but rather that there are expressions of it that are. Same with femininity, though the term "toxic femininity" doesn't seem to be in common use. Being forced into an ill-fitting gender role seems likely to encourage depression and low self-esteem, whatever the specifics.

I strive to do what I want and not worry about what is feminine or masculine. I don't always succeed, but I I tend to find it easiest to get along with people who are similar. I like using tools, programming, cats and sharing pictures of them, and sweet alcoholic drinks (I find most of the recipes in cocktail guides could stand to be sweeter and end up modifying them accordingly; I think the lack of sweetness is probably a gendered thing and I think it's kind of dumb because it's supposed to be a pleasant indulgence).

That's one of the reasons for my signature. I stopped looking for someone or something who could show me how to do this, and just decided to be that person. (There are other reasons as well.)

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

I was thinking along similar lines. The notion of "toxic masculinity" doesn't mean masculinity is inherently toxic, but rather that there are expressions of it that are. Same with femininity, though the term "toxic femininity" doesn't seem to be in common use. Being forced into an ill-fitting gender role seems likely to encourage depression and low self-esteem, whatever the specifics.


I have said this, too. There are many ways to be feminine, or masculine, or as most of us are, some combination. I think of the continuum as two archetypes, with individual humans embodying them in different proportions. Even then, though, the archetypes will vary with factors such as culture and time period.

Very helpful post. There is both toxic masculinity and toxic femininity, which might be better known of as "mean girls", but it does involve exaggerations of female "props" just like toxic masculinity requires masculine "props".

I think that both come from a hollow inner core. When people don't have a sense of personal identity, then they rely on these toxic, preset fabrications of being. Toxic masculinity creates the illusion of personal strength where there is weakness. Toxic femininity creates the illusion of social strength where there is weakness. If people could focus more on developing a sense of personal empowerment in the world, of having permission to be who they are, the freedom to act upon reality and have a place in it, then they don't need exaggerated cardboard cutout versions of self. When that personal strength is genuine and healthy, it is a wonderful contribution to the world however it maps to culturally defined notions of gender or not.