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Brief Explanation of the Pro-Life and Pro-Choice perspectives in the Abortion Controversy

Sparkykun

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Pro-life and Pro-Choice debators often don't really understand each other. Certain people think that one side is immoral in not letting a child be born, and how there are psychological consequences for the mother, while the other side thinks that Pro-Life is too focused on religious doctrines, and is not grounded in reality. This is to summarize the debate from both sides, and to bring to light their underlying perspectives.

The pro-life feels that it's the women's job to be a mother and give birth, just like it's mens' jobs to fight for what they believe to be the right path for the future. Given how women (of heterosexual sexual temperament) are reincarnated as men in their next life, and how men (of heterosexual sexual temperament) are to reincarnate as women, it doesn't matter if in the course of their duty, they get a little hurt or killed in the process.

The pro-choice feels that if you make abortion illegal, you support illegal abortion, because the current living conditions and environment often don't have the proper mindset, emotional and the resource support for single motherhood. This makes it very unsafe for any women to want an abortion.

Further reading on the topic here:


 

Coriolis

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It's all about control: who gets to control the lives and bodies of women.
 

Sparkykun

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It's all about control: who gets to control the lives and bodies of women.

People would be more understanding if they wish each other to find the love of their lives. For people of the Homosexual Sexual Temperament, that love are the child of their own.
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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The pro-life feels that it's the women's job to be a mother and give birth, just like it's mens' jobs to fight for what they believe to be the right path for the future. Given how women (of heterosexual sexual temperament) are reincarnated as men in their next life, and how men (of heterosexual sexual temperament) are to reincarnate as women, it doesn't matter if in the course of their duty, they get a little hurt or killed in the process.

What theology is this part of? I haven't heard of any Christian group that believes something like this.

But I think there is a good chance you are right about the gender roles.
 

Sparkykun

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What theology is this part of? I haven't heard of any Christian group that believes something like this.

But I think there is a good chance you are right about the gender roles.

You can see a discussion of the reincarnation between man and woman in 100 year cycles, here:

You can find examples of reincarnation between man and woman here:
Garrett P. Serviss (Mar 24, 1851-May 25, 1929) and Laura Dern (b. Feb 10, 1967)
Aleksandr Vasilevsky (Sep 30, 1895 - Dec 05, 1977) and Christie Abbott (b. May 16, 1982)
Reply With Quote
More examples:

The Call of Duty is a concept heavily emphasized in the Bhagavad Gita, when a Prince asks the point of fighting when so many people he loved would die:
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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You can see a discussion of the reincarnation between man and woman in 100 year cycles, here:

You can find examples of reincarnation between man and woman here:
Garrett P. Serviss (Mar 24, 1851-May 25, 1929) and Laura Dern (b. Feb 10, 1967)
Aleksandr Vasilevsky (Sep 30, 1895 - Dec 05, 1977) and Christie Abbott (b. May 16, 1982)
Reply With Quote
More examples:

The Call of Duty is a concept heavily emphasized in the Bhagavad Gita, when a Prince asks the point of fighting when so many people he loved would die:

Right but most people in the US who are pro-life are Christians, so the issue isn't whether some people out there believe in those kinds of reincarnation but whether that's a Christian belief.

I've heare of prosperity gospel and things like that but never this gender-swapped reincarnation as part of any form of Christianity.
 

Totenkindly

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Right but most people in the US who are pro-life are Christians, so the issue isn't whether some people out there believe in those kinds of reincarnation but whether that's a Christian belief.

I've heare of prosperity gospel and things like that but never this gender-swapped reincarnation as part of any form of Christianity.
right, it's not orthodox in any mainstream Christian branch I'm aware of; typically they think that people are appointed but once to live and die, and then to suffer judgment/review. Certainly not part of the typical Christian influences on issues like abortion in the USA. After all, if reincarnation is regular and people come back, the severity of abortion lessens because any dead soul will simply live again.
 

citizen cane

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Huh?
 

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LightSun

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Pro-life and Pro-Choice debators often don't really understand each other. Certain people think that one side is immoral in not letting a child be born, and how there are psychological consequences for the mother, while the other side thinks that Pro-Life is too focused on religious doctrines, and is not grounded in reality. This is to summarize the debate from both sides, and to bring to light their underlying perspectives.

The pro-life feels that it's the women's job to be a mother and give birth, just like it's mens' jobs to fight for what they believe to be the right path for the future. Given how women (of heterosexual sexual temperament) are reincarnated as men in their next life, and how men (of heterosexual sexual temperament) are to reincarnate as women, it doesn't matter if in the course of their duty, they get a little hurt or killed in the process.

The pro-choice feels that if you make abortion illegal, you support illegal abortion, because the current living conditions and environment often don't have the proper mindset, emotional and the resource support for single motherhood. This makes it very unsafe for any women to want an abortion.

Further reading on the topic here:


“I know abortion is a touchy subject. I can respect that pro-life are concerned for a fetus. It’s just that they are so up in arms to prevent abortion. Yet a glaring hole is that those children that statistically aren’t wanted grow up in adverse homes.

I know the statistics from the resiliency studies that helped produce the 40 developmental assets to raise statistically a child with both good self esteem and good mental health.

This is a glaring omission from the those who wish to save lives. 2/3 of children growing up in dysfunctional homes for the rest of their lives have issues in one or more of these areas for life.

Those unfortunate enough to grow up in dysfunctional households have problems with mental illness, substance abuse, crime, jobs, relationships and other areas.

Statistically the jails of America are full of adults who came from too say the least adverse conditions. Do you know that America has the largest prison population in the world?

It doesn’t seem fair statistically to bring into the world children and then turn your backs on them because you won’t support social programs to help those you forced into the world.

We have in a mere 102 years increased our population by almost 6,000,000,000 people. The population in 1920 was 2,000,000,000. It was the discovery of petroleum that led to fertilizers being used.

We are over populated. We shouldn’t bring children into the world that statistically are not wanted. What’s worse you condemn approximately 2/3 of them to a life time of purgatory for the sins of their home life.

We should have children brought up with nurture, love and proper boundaries. If these conditions can not be met, then it’s best statistically for the child and society.

1. You bring in statistically unwanted children.

2. Statistically approximately 2/3 of them are going to have problems and issues for the rest of their lives.

3. Dysfunction breeds dysfunction in a self repeating cycle drowning the resources of society.

You wish to force mothers to be pregnant and carry to term. Then pay for your decision. Pay for the life long problems of those children unfortunately who weren’t wanted. Statistically it is the Republican branch that are pro-life.

They are against increased taxes. They don’t want to pay the taxes that will be needed to house and take care of these children that according to research have life long problems.

If you can answer these questions I am listening. How are you going to do this? And are you prepared to foot the bill by your stand?”

P.S. Postscript. As far as abortion, it’s such a touchy subject. I was initially pro-choice. However the horrors of the abortion process has me wondering. I think it’s a no win situation.

I only present information. I am not a woman. I don’t feel I have a right to truly speak on the subject and make a definitive stand one way or the other.”
 
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The Cat

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Coriolis

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“I know abortion is a touchy subject. I can respect that pro-life are concerned for a fetus. It’s just that they are so up in arms to prevent abortion. Yet a glaring hole is that those children that statistically aren’t wanted grow up in adverse homes.
We know how to prevent abortion.

1. Give everyone, especially poor people, ready access to effective birth control. People who have abortions don't want abortions, they want not to be pregnant and have a child. Give them other means to avoid that, and most will use them.

2. Raise girls to have ambitions beyond motherhood and encourage them to pursue the full spectrum of their talents and interests. Then they are less likely to make bad choices in an effort to seek validation from boys.

The fact that people who oppose abortion often oppose one or both of these things shows what their real agenda is. It isn't preventing abortion. It's pushing their morality, their religion, onto others.
 

Sparkykun

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“I know abortion is a touchy subject. I can respect that pro-life are concerned for a fetus. It’s just that they are so up in arms to prevent abortion. Yet a glaring hole is that those children that statistically aren’t wanted grow up in adverse homes.

I know the statistics from the resiliency studies that helped produce the 40 developmental assets to raise statistically a child with both good self esteem and good mental health.

This is a glaring omission from the those who wish to save lives. 2/3 of children growing up in dysfunctional homes for the rest of their lives have issues in one or more of these areas for life.

Those unfortunate enough to grow up in dysfunctional households have problems with mental illness, substance abuse, crime, jobs, relationships and other areas.

Statistically the jails of America are full of adults who came from too say the least adverse conditions. Do you know that America has the largest prison population in the world?

It doesn’t seem fair statistically to bring into the world children and then turn your backs on them because you won’t support social programs to help those you forced into the world.

We have in a mere 102 years increased our population by almost 6,000,000,000 people. The population in 1920 was 2,000,000,000. It was the discovery of petroleum that led to fertilizers being used.

We are over populated. We shouldn’t bring children into the world that statistically are not wanted. What’s worse you condemn approximately 2/3 of them to a life time of purgatory for the sins of their home life.

We should have children brought up with nurture, love and proper boundaries. If these conditions can not be met, then it’s best statistically for the child and society.

1. You bring in statistically unwanted children.

2. Statistically approximately 2/3 of them are going to have problems and issues for the rest of their lives.

3. Dysfunction breeds dysfunction in a self repeating cycle drowning the resources of society.

You wish to force mothers to be pregnant and carry to term. Then pay for your decision. Pay for the life long problems of those children unfortunately who weren’t wanted. Statistically it is the Republican branch that are pro-life.

They are against increased taxes. They don’t want to pay the taxes that will be needed to house and take care of these children that according to research have life long problems.

If you can answer these questions I am listening. How are you going to do this? And are you prepared to foot the bill by your stand?”

P.S. Postscript. As far as abortion, it’s such a touchy subject. I was initially pro-choice. However the horrors of the abortion process has me wondering. I think it’s a no win situation.

I only present information. I am not a woman. I don’t feel I have a right to truly speak on the subject and make a definitive stand one way or the other.”

Children ideally call their parents using the Parent Relationship Temperament, and not a babysitter or kindergarten teacher.

Also, people who complain of overpopulation lack the imagination and the ability to realize solutions. It's like how Neanderthals complain about the lack of caves to live in.
 

Skimt

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We know how to prevent abortion.

1. Give everyone, especially poor people, ready access to effective birth control. People who have abortions don't want abortions, they want not to be pregnant and have a child. Give them other means to avoid that, and most will use them.

2. Raise girls to have ambitions beyond motherhood and encourage them to pursue the full spectrum of their talents and interests. Then they are less likely to make bad choices in an effort to seek validation from boys.

The fact that people who oppose abortion often oppose one or both of these things shows what their real agenda is. It isn't preventing abortion. It's pushing their morality, their religion, onto others.

1. I don't mean to brag, but my load would reach my girlfriend's womb faster than a contraceptive reminder would my hippocampus if she seductively whispered silly things that shall not be named into my ear.

2. Not everyone values exerting an invasive and borderline abusive control of ones children's emotional and intellectual growth, or weaponizing them for political dogma.

Were I against abortion, would it be because of my morality and religion, regardless of my religious affiliation? Are cultural differences between borders taken into account, by which I mean the difference between New York and Texas, and difference between USA and Norway, or is the argument's merit unshakable across even national boundaries? How would you address the population decline in western societies, excluding the explosive birth ratio of first and second generation immigrants, if that was an argument against abortion?

I'm honestly not pro anything, and usually agree with your posts. Just figured I would poke the furry bear.
 

Coriolis

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1. I don't mean to brag, but my load would reach my girlfriend's womb faster than a contraceptive reminder would my hippocampus if she seductively whispered silly things that shall not be named into my ear.

2. Not everyone values exerting an invasive and borderline abusive control of ones children's emotional and intellectual growth, or weaponizing them for political dogma.

Were I against abortion, would it be because of my morality and religion, regardless of my religious affiliation? Are cultural differences between borders taken into account, by which I mean the difference between New York and Texas, and difference between USA and Norway, or is the argument's merit unshakable across even national boundaries? How would you address the population decline in western societies, excluding the explosive birth ratio of first and second generation immigrants, if that was an argument against abortion?

I'm honestly not pro anything, and usually agree with your posts. Just figured I would poke the furry bear.
You missed the point of 1 and 2. Look into how birth control really works, as well as the usual attitudes of the anti-choice crowd vs. the pro choice.

How can your views be "because of morality and religion" and also "regardless of religion"? That's contradictory. I can see a particular moral thread - say, murder is wrong - crossing religious or cultural boundaries, but if you are citing religion in particular, well, then you are saying that specifically is a factor.

There are two issues here: 1) whether abortion is justified in any particular or general situation; and 2) whether the government should be involved in such decisions. In China, the government was requiring people to have abortions, to control population growth. People can have different views on the first without imposing them on their differently-thinking neighbors. Think abortion is wrong? Then don't have one, and advise or encourage people you know not to do it either. Supporting government involvement inherently supports imposition on others, either to require them to give birth or to require them to abort. Some cultures support greater degrees of government involvement in private lives than others. Americans historically have had a more libertarian position, favoring "rugged individualism". A consistent exception has been Christian groups who want to codify into law their own religiously based morality. This has sorely tested the separation of church and state provision in our constitution.

As for the population decline, in general it is a good thing. We need some sort of curb on population growth. If certain nations or regions are concerned that that decline is too steep, the right approach is to encourage - not require - families to have more children. This might include identifying and addressing the reasons why people are not having many children. On the flip side, outreach to immigrant groups on the benefits and availability of birth control - and other options for women - should bring their birth rates more in line with other groups.
 

ceecee

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Right but most people in the US who are pro-life are Christians, so the issue isn't whether some people out there believe in those kinds of reincarnation but whether that's a Christian belief.

I've heare of prosperity gospel and things like that but never this gender-swapped reincarnation as part of any form of Christianity.
Neither of the other two Abrahamic faiths themselves have issue with abortion.

There is very little difference between Christian Domimionism and Islamic or Israeli fundamentalism which are fringe fanaticism infiltrating the mainstream beliefs, just like prosperity gospel.

It's fine if a person wants to spout off on their abortion takes - even the most ridiculous right wing brain worm hot takes. But removing the right to bodily autonomy is never going to be permissible to the majority of people. The "unborn" argument doesn't hold much water after the screamers and scolds insisted on the right to infect and possibly kill others with a virus - it's not going to work here either. If you have an issue with abortion, don't have one but don't insist that view isn't about control over women and children.
 
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A wise friend said once, “Preaching to the choir.” I know I am not going to change a persons deeply held belief. I am trying to be civil. I don’t want to disparage and cause division.

I am not using any name calling, pejoratives or name calling and to the best of my ability refrain from cognitive distortions.

“Those anti-abortion say abortionists are killers. This is a glaring real science methodology statistic. First of all are wives tale and false positivisms,

“Time heals all wounds.” No? That is unenlightened, misinformed, and erroneous.

It has been proven by science that 2/3 of children who grow up in dysfunctional households go on for the rest of their lives having trouble in one or more areas.

Areas such as jobs, substance abuse, mental illness and relationships. Who is going to pay for all the treatment of people growing up in a dysfunctional home life?

I haven’t even taken to account outside dysfunction away from the family. School bullying is rampart and especially hard for those coming from rough homes.

I’m generalizing meaning it’s not 100%, The Republican Party doesn’t want to allocate funds for all these children who go on to have difficulties throughout their life times.

So you tell a woman who want an abortion that she is not in charge of her body? Yet you don’t fund social programs to help all of those who according to hard reliable statistics who have had the misfortune of growing up in a dysfunctional home.

Many times the parents themselves had issues and were not fit to be parents. You force victims of rape and incest and teenage pregnancy to have an abortion and then put some of these children into foster care.

The church is outdated. They have doctrines that originated in the Bronze Age BC. Religion has not caught up to new findings.

One of the reasons religious people say God let’s the devil to roam is that we have free will and that he is testing us.

Sorry for this I’d another erroneous assumption and belief. It’s time religion starts accepting fact,

discovery and new understandings and not rely on creeds they are no longer valid as is the case with erroneous free will.

It has been found by scientists that before a person makes a conscious decision, choice or action, that it has already been predetermined at the unconscious level.

How many of those who believe know this objective fact? I am open to people of all beliefs, cultures and persuasions.

If you are a theist I will uphold your right. I don’t care if a person is a theist or non-theist. I look for positive energy in people.

Let’s focus on what we do agree upon and not what we disagree. I don’t have the right to tell people what to believe in or not believe in. What is important to me is do you walk your talk and practice what you preach?

Another generalization is that the far right evangelicals are Republicans. A generalization they are more status quo, rigid and dogmatic.

Well another study tells of those who believe in a just, fair and loving God or universe are in an unconscious manner more judgmental.

‘Belief in a just world’
M.J. Lerner studied the tendency of individuals to believe in a just world. In a just world, good things would happen to good people, and bad things would happen to bad people,

Much of the research into belief in a just world (BJW) centers around developing measures that indicate the degree to which an individual believes in a just world.

A strong belief in a just world increase the likelihood of “blaming the victim” since such a world view denied the possibility of innocent victims.” Source: GRE: Graduate Record Examination, Subject Test: Psychology, 2016

Note: As I said I brought up according to scientific research free will is a myth except autonomic reflex actions.

Those who believe in a just, kind, loving God, universe or Karma are unconsciously more prone to being judgmental.

Anti-abortionists would force women to conceive yet they will not pay out on social problems to alleviate the dysfunctional cycle.

I am an advocate for raising children with nurture, love, and acceptable boundaries. What most people do not understand is that when I am scrolling I see a question posed.

If you could change reality what one thing would you do? To my astonishment and too my disbelief I view readers who say they’d change nothing and the world is perfect.

I am aghast, flabbergasted. The population is too high for this planet. We are destroying natures beauty and bounty with are reckless overproducing of children.

To me an animal our brother and sister animal kin who are alive feel more pain and emotional grief than a fetus.

Yet this world is recklessly overpopulating and decimating the animal species. We are facing the 6th extinction of all life on the planet.

I would rather protect wildlife than unborn fetuses that statistically are not wanted by society and who fall through the cracks of the system.

I want a society that values quality over quantity of children. To do that some people are not cut out to have much less raise a healthy child.

What is more disturbing according to a research resiliency study, a full 2/3 of children growing up in a dysfunctional home go on for the rest of their lives having one or more problems.

Mental illness, substance abuse, jobs and relationships. Generalizing it is generally the Republican branch that are pro-life.

Yet they will not take care of all then children who may have been forced to be born by unwilling women.

They have cut backs and won’t invest money, time and resources with children, education and societal programs to increase the quality life of its citizens.

This is disturbing. In a dictionary sense it is blind ignorance to spouse the Bible and try force innumerable children to have a lifetime of problems all due to bad parenting and existing home life conditions.

They advocate for a fetus to be born. Then they wash their hands of those who suffered and are forced to suffer the entirety of their lives. This is sin, evil, blind and not well thought out. I also think of the irony with the following.

Generally speaking Republicans are pro-life to dogma, yet they are irresponsible for all the children they want to forcefully bring into this life.

Generalization Conservatives are known more as a war party. Liberals are generally described as doves.

So they want to protect an unborn fetus who had no consciousness. Yet they will more willingly go to war and destroy lives in the areas.

Mental health issues of PTSD and physical disability that the American taxpayer has to take care of free of charge by the VA system,

I am a liberal democrat and I abhor war. War is the last resort for anti sane human being and soul.

Not only the trillions of dollars in pursuit of war and taking care of the expenses of the people who have had war negatively affect their lives.

These trillions of dollars could have been put back into society for a he citizens, the children and for increasing the quality of our infrastructure.

I am (generally speaking) the Republicans won’t pay for the children they wished to be born after affects of a dysfunctional life.

The homeless population largest percentage are war veterans. Billionaires won’t pay for societal problems of our American vets on the streets yet they will gladly go to war to make profit in the war industry.

Finally another discrepancy of reason, being rational is the Republicans don’t want reforms on firearms. They will advocate for those unborn. Yet they will not curb their voice and resist effective and reasoned change with the gun lobby.

But they turn a blind eye for all those killed by these weapons on our streets across the nation. All across our country are shootouts and mass murder.

This will continue as long as there is no reform. Countless victims and their family shall be forced to get gunned on a city street.

Instead of protecting babies on a world that is depleting it’s resources and making statistically unwanted children be born.

To make it worse is that the 2/3 children now grown adult will not receive proper treatment because their champions who voiced they should be born.

Then blindly wash their hands and conscious of these serious unaddressed societal problems and issues. Those who grew up in terrible conditions now will get discounted after they turn adult and have problems for the entirety of their life.

Someone who is truly Pro-Life would protect all those that are gunned down. Real, alive, cogent and self aware human beings are not being protected.

There is no reason for assault rifles and automatic weapons being on our streets. They will defend the unborn who is not self aware.

Its more than unfortunate that the unborn have to suffer for the crimes and mistakes of others. There is no easy resolution. We live in an imperfect society. This is an understatement.

There should be education and birth control measures. All I know is the startling statistics that a full 2/3 of children growing up in dysfunctional households then for the rest of their lives have one or more areas of difficulties.

This is problems with relationships, substance abuse, mental illness, jobs. Think of that horror. Then compound it because Pro-Life advocate for the unborn.

They don’t want to fund the social measures to take care of these statistically unwanted citizens when they reach adulthood.

This is not fluffy opinion. This is hard research methodology studies in Resiliency and the 40 Developmental Assets that produce a mentally healthy child with statistically a healthy self esteem.

This is a crime. We force mothers to endure this difficult choice. Maybe Pro-Lifers aren’t aware of these Resiliency studies.

Due to lack of accountability, responsibility and care those that advocated for the young ones life, then turn their back on children who grow up in these conditions when they become adults and need help.

For those who believe in a fair, loving God and universe have been found to be unconsciously more judgmental.

These people unknowingly, and unconsciously stigmatize an army of dysfunctional children who then according to statistics have issues.

This isn’t my opinion. It is a study done by M.J. Lerner. This is on a test to take a graduate exam to become a psychologist. Those who want all the unborn to live help initiate a society where the dysfunctional cycle continues.

I believe children should be raised with love, proper boundaries and nurture. We are imperfect. Continuing this mad dysfunctional cycle is reckless and exhausts the resources of society.

I mean this. is a commendable thing to have a heart and not want abortion. No sane person would.

It is an untenable scenario. Until we put the time; money and resources into our greatest asset which are children, this dysfunction and suffering shall continue.

If you want to end abortion then raise children in quality situations of love, nurture and with proper boundaries.

Raising healthy children will then produce citizens with healthy mental health, good self esteem and successful citizens.

The need for abortion would lesson because we are raising a quality generation of more stable, loving and rational human beings who are less likely to commit crimes against their fellow man.

We would then have healthy children with a head on then to make wiser life decisions. The Pro-Life stance is untenable for the health of the nation. Dysfunction creates dysfunction.

In the meantime continue with education and offer birth control. I agree abortion isn’t wanted.” LightSun
 
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