[Other/Multiple Enneatypes] Androgynous sexuality F/M and Holy Love a spiritual/religious focus and Reiss...

[KitchenFly]

Androgynous sexuality feminine/masculine and Holy Love a spiritual/religious and Reiss's 16 basic desirous.

I recently this week, become a wear of the Reiss 16 basic desires model and in a short time I thought to myself could there be two more basic desires, that are of a more personal nature but clearly recognisable at sutler level that my be clouded by biases and taboos. Preventing emendate recognition.

For nearly twenty years I have had a model of a set of correlations that I formulated in the late 90's and one component within the model I chose to tittle The Principle Of Unification.

The principle of unification: ESNTJ ---------- INTFP between Points one and nine towards between Points five and six. Likened to a the Earths magnetic pole layer on a two dimensional picture of the Earth and its magnetic pole.

1w9 ESNTJ -------------------------- 5w6 INTFP

I still like the term unification because it is a component that bridges working parts of a mechanistic action as a cohesive multidimensional action for most if not all layers of self personality not disconnected from Soul as a unsullied portion of Greater Natures purity.

Any way I ordered the 16 and added two, and I see this layer as an operation that involves the three instincts and the eighteen sub types. I think we all utilise all 18 within our story or life's narrative at different levels and with different biases neutral positive and negative within or attitudes and inward and outward behaviours and within our instinctual drives.

Anyway I am not the best at describing and explaining things but I invite you to generate your own thoughts and present feedback and perhaps partake in generating a discussion about this topic I am presenting or starting.

Some of the words may need within your own mind some scope for a contextual definition that makes sense within your own understandings.

Like eating a primal like desirer for me as a 9w1 is like my apatite for consumption with out reciprocation of a contribution, it like with my apathy and indolence and sloth in general spiritually and physically. If that makes sense. Doing easy things for pleasure and utilising for comfort.

But remember I have had only 2-3 days of reflection so my definitions of it as an energy may need expanding and a greater degree of provision.

Most likely others who are more apt at such things will lead the way in generating good quality explanations and descriptions of the 18 and explain what under lies the mechanism and explain there place as components within the larger structure of the enneagram and psychometrics.

I think that it is an instinctual operation at the level of the eighteen subtype and ID and Ego and Supper ego may have a fundamental role within the phycology generated and expressed via the action of these eighteen components.


Her is my list of eighteen:


1w9 - _______________ (Androgynous)
1w2 - Physical Activity

2w1 - Vengeance
2w3 - Romance

3w2 - Social contact
3w4 - Idealism

4w3 - Tranquility
4w5 - Acceptance

5w4 - Order
5w6 - ______________ (Holy Love)

6w5 - Social Status
6w7 - Curiosity

7w6 - Honour
7w8 - Independence

8w7 - Family
8w9 - Power

9w8 - Saving
9w1 - Eating


Any thoughts?

 

[á´…eparted]

Anyway I am not the best at describing and explaining things

Sorry for being rude, but you're flat terrible at explaining things. I wasn't able to follow this even slightly.

 

[KitchenFly]

Orr ok, thanks for the feed back..

Cheers

 

[KitchenFly]

You may like to think of the eighteens as instinctive phycological persuasions. Desirer driven. An instinctual order lead action.

As if a neutral , the zero in a 0 1 2 4 prime action.

One and two maybe the actions of Point nine as creation and points three and six as the multiplicity, four maybe the action of incumbency as a hole action made or component mechanism action synergetic lay working as a unit and independently and within others synergetic units of operation inner workings of enneagram operations.

But I am no expert my job is simply to reason out what is taking place from my limited understanding of the clock work like nature of the living enneagram as a working mechanism of minds operation.

I hope that is helpful

Cheers

 

[Mane]

Sorry for being rude, but you're flat terrible at explaining things. I wasn't able to follow this even slightly.

I think @KitchenFly wants us to expend Reiss's 16 desire model to 18 in order to make it correlate with the 18 enneagram+wing types:

1. Assign a subtype (enneagram + wing) to each of those basic desires.

• Acceptance - the need to be appreciated
• Curiosity, the need to gain knowledge
• Eating, the need for food
• Family, the need to take care of one’s offspring
• Honor, the need to be faithful to the customary values of an individual’s ethnic group, family or clan
• Idealism, the need for social justice
• Independence, the need to be distinct and self-reliant
• Order, the need for prepared, established, and conventional environments
• Physical activity, the need for work out of the body
• Power, the need for control of will
• Romance, the need for mating or sex
• Saving, the need to accumulate something
• Social contact, the need for relationship with others
• Social status, the need for social significance
• Tranquility, the need to be secure and protected
• Vengeance, the need to strike back against another person

2. Find the two remaining subtypes that don't have have a basic desire attached.

3. Figure out what basic needs would describe them that don't currently exist in Reiss's list.

 

[AphroditeGoneAwry]

I think @KitchenFly wants us to expend Reiss's 16 desire model to 18 in order to make it correlate with the 18 enneagram+wing types:

1. Assign a subtype (enneagram + wing) to each of those basic desires.

• Acceptance - the need to be appreciated
• Curiosity, the need to gain knowledge
• Eating, the need for food
• Family, the need to take care of one’s offspring
• Honor, the need to be faithful to the customary values of an individual’s ethnic group, family or clan
• Idealism, the need for social justice
• Independence, the need to be distinct and self-reliant
• Order, the need for prepared, established, and conventional environments
• Physical activity, the need for work out of the body
• Power, the need for control of will
• Romance, the need for mating or sex
• Saving, the need to accumulate something
• Social contact, the need for relationship with others
• Social status, the need for social significance
• Tranquility, the need to be secure and protected
• Vengeance, the need to strike back against another person

2. Find the two remaining subtypes that don't have have a basic desire attached.

3. figure out what basic needs would describe them that don't currently exist in Reiss's list.

How do you interpret like that? Nice.

So the Reiss model is an alternative to say, Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs?

I'm not sure I buy into the Reiss model, so I will pass on this experiment for now.

Thanks, OP!

 

[Mane]

I think there's a problem if you interpret the needs literally, simply because how basic they are, but I can see a way to go above that.

For instance, it would be very hard to say that any enneagram's motivation revolves around the need for food. we all die if we don't provide for it. But if you interpret is as the desire for satisfaction and have basic needs met and provided for, then I've recently heard a theory that e7 anxiety originates in unreliable parenting - when a child doesn't trust that their authority figures will provide for their needs, they stop taking them for granted, and might later react in becoming self indulgent in perusing those needs. 7w6s might be directly matched with that need and the resulting anxiety, while 7w8s might focus more on the desire for independence.
It would also be difficult to assign the need for physical activity to any particular enneagram. Is it for attractiveness (3)? Adrenaline (7)? Avoid health issues (9)? I think if you take it as an end for itself, then it would be more about gaining a sense of strength. That IMO might fit better with the 8w7, who seek power through that which can be attached to themselves, while 8w9 would be more likely to gain that sense of strength through establishing positions of power.
Vengeance seems very circumstantial. However I have observed that while enneagram 9w1s are more likely to hold themselves up to an ideal of tranquility, enneagram 9w8s are more likely to store and build up their anger towards the perceived transgressions over time, perhaps spending more of conscious effort fantasizing over retribution.
Order is another problematic one, it seems to fit better with J, or SJ in particular in MBTI when described with the specifications of established and conventional environments. I think to some extent you can see that need more visibly in the enforcement of 1w2s as their idealism stretches for perfectionism on the side of shame in regards to imperfections in the eyes of others, while 1w9s seem to have a more pure form of idealism that is centered around notions of social justice.
I am having some trouble matching romance, savings and social contact with enneagrams, because they match all too well with sx, sp & so, and I've read descriptions for all enneagram & instinctual variant combinations. It might be possible that Romance can be assigned to the enneagram 2w1 who might want to idealize their partners more, while 2w3 would be more focused on the need to have others to take care of and build co dependencies. I could easily see how 6w7s might solve their insecurity more through means of saving and building up means to rely on, while 6w5s would be be more focused on securing the loyalty of the group through a deeper understanding of social expectations. You could also argue that while 3w4s are more puritan about status symbols, 3w2s tend further towards flexing to others on an indevidual basis and gain a status from social contracts.

Enneagram 4's fixation supposedly comes from the inability to accept one's self, so it's hard to say that they act towards gaining acceptance, but they do act on the sense that they are deprived from it. This seems to be more pure and simple in the case of 4w3s, while shaped to something somewhat different when it comes to 4w5s - almost like a counter reaction, embracing the lack of acceptance and rationalizing it through and trying to give it meaning - in fact the 4w5 might be a clue at the missing needs.
Matching enneagram 5s with curiosity is also pretty straight forward, the question is which wing? I would say enneagram 5w6 are more head-on about dealing with the anxiety of the great unknown, while 5w4 are more inclined to use knowledge as a means to distinct themselves in regard to specialized competency.

Going by this:

• Idealism, the need for social justice (1w9)
• Order, the need for prepared, established, and conventional environments (1w2)
• Romance, the need for mating or sex (2w1)
• Family, the need to take care of one’s offspring (2w3)
• Social contact, the need for relationship with others (3w2)
• Social status, the need for social significance (3w4)
• Acceptance - the need to be appreciated (4w3)
• Curiosity, the need to gain knowledge (5w6)
• Honor, the need to be faithful to the customary values of an individual’s ethnic group, family or clan (6w5)
• Saving, the need to accumulate something (6w7)
• Eating, the need for food (7w6)
• Independence, the need to be distinct and self-reliant (7w8)
• Physical activity, the need for work out of the body (8w7)
• Power, the need for control of will (8w9)
• Vengeance, the need to strike back against another person (9w8)
• Tranquility, the need to be secure and protected (9w1)

That leaves us with enneagram 4w5 and enneagram 5w4, which points us at the missing needs in Reiss's list:

• Originality, the need to distinct the self from what's around it (4w5)
• Competence, the need to feel useful (5w4)

[MENTION=24144]KitchenFly[/MENTION]

 

[KitchenFly]

Thanks for your replies I may need to think about how I can present the logic of my reasoning so as it maybe clearer and easier for others to relate to as a body of input.

Perhaps they arbitrary and can take any order or different orders for the uniqueness of a individual as a type and that order simply reflect my own identification with the structure, I am open to that possibility.

But my initial idea still sticks with me and I think there is validity in the structure I have drafted.

 

[KitchenFly]

Going by this:

• Idealism, the need for social justice (1w9)
• Order, the need for prepared, established, and conventional environments (1w2)
• Romance, the need for mating or sex (2w1)
• Family, the need to take care of one’s offspring (2w3)
• Social contact, the need for relationship with others (3w2)
• Social status, the need for social significance (3w4)
• Acceptance - the need to be appreciated (4w3)
• Curiosity, the need to gain knowledge (5w6)
• Honor, the need to be faithful to the customary values of an individual’s ethnic group, family or clan (6w5)
• Saving, the need to accumulate something (6w7)
• Eating, the need for food (7w6)
• Independence, the need to be distinct and self-reliant (7w8)
• Physical activity, the need for work out of the body (8w7)
• Power, the need for control of will (8w9)
• Vengeance, the need to strike back against another person (9w8)
• Tranquility, the need to be secure and protected (9w1)

That leaves us with enneagram 4w5 and enneagram 5w4, which points us at the missing needs in Reiss's list:

• Originality, the need to distinct the self from what's around it (4w5)
• Competence, the need to feel useful (5w4)

[MENTION=24144]KitchenFly[/MENTION][/QUOTE]

I like the logic of your list they sound tone correct within a scale so to say well done.

Perhaps it is an other scale my list is drawing upon.

One thing I did note is it seems your scale seems to be linked to the instinctual behavioural drive of each of the subtypes and I like that.

I recognise the layer of attitude and behaviour within the levels of development (Don Riso's and Russ Hudson , -book: personality types)

But one thing I felt that was missing when I read that work was ethos.

Perhaps there are three components attitude behaviour and a third ethos.

Could my list be seeking to address some ethos drive at an instinctive level of the subtype energy.

As if there where a positive negative and neutral and if so could my list be seeking to understand some kind of neutral drive at an instinctual level and the positive could that be your list and the negative could that be an other list still to be teased out?

I do have an other list that seems to fit the six pointed figure. Perhaps you may like to have look at it and there your thoughts.

It comes from a five part model I was told about over a decade ago and it has alway stuck in my mind because I recognise its validity. It goes like this:

The Blamer
The Placater
The Distractor
The Computer
And Anger

They are if I recall correctly, defence strategies that we utilise when in stress as responses to stressful articulation from an other.

I have added a sixth that I believe exists and I have placed the five existing and the sixth that I have recognised upon the six pointed figure where I believe as energies they stem from or operate from within the instinctual drive for coping with stress with in know time narrative concerning the activity of people and things.

At point one - Anger

At point two - The Victim

At point four - The Placater

At point five - The Computer

At point severn - The Distractor

At point eight - The Blamer



This list is different in that it only has six components.

 

[KitchenFly]

One other kinda interesting thing in this search in a math like style thought is, eighteen divided by three equals six.

So thoughts of three into three and negative positive neutral are not far from my mind. Nor are other mathematical patterns.

And I ask my self questions like what if in a weird kinda way things are mirrored in a reverse like way at the same time as it there are two orders at work, instead of three time six equals eighteen as it natural dose in our math, at a quantum level of inputs , could it the logic have a revers were in
three eighteens creates a six ? As if they the individual components mirror a reverse counter logic within the mathematic synthesis between parts. Like a geometry. A mathematical formula.

The sum has four parts three parts or three action within eighteen that co work with six parts. All parts work via the nine point of the enneagram.

But in the working of this part there seems to me to be another part that is geometrically shaped like a six pointed star some what like the outer casing of the Psychosynthesis model, but if you image a six pointed star two triangles, and a between the points on the outer side place two unit symbols of the value 1 so you have 12 units of one distributed evenly around the geometrical symbol, you may like to think of the purpose of each triangle as being like a switch each point of the two triangles having four values, one set function of a negative and a positive and a neutral on each point of both triangles and that may change randomly but remain as a set of three different values of the three. And in another way at the same time there in one corner of a triangle, let's say negative gains an input from the negative of the other triangle via a connection through its two other corners positive and neutral, as it has two units between on each side (the opposing negative of the other triangle) a switching mechanism is posable to be thought of.

Each point of the six points at one level could be thought of as having four operations like a code E.g. (negative positive neutral negative) and so there could be six like operational variants actions.

But what I wanted to point out is the number 12 , yes there are 18 values but the twelve is what is important and in my abstract third implicate model the twelve is not just twelve it also is 1 and 2 as in like the law of three action of the inner triangle, and it is also 21.

So it is as it a working action is taking place within the number value from three directions it has is face value that we all understand the number 12 and it has to abstract values, both numbers the one and the two as having a mechanical role that is a dynamic of the law of three that has a four part like component try like action not just three. And there is a path of reading the number in an opposite direction 12-21 like a funnel gate way that could be viewed as a Y junction to and from the third implicate, like perhaps a fractal.

I think I should shear some math because I have sheared the twenty one.

9 times 21 = 189

189 - 138 = 51

5
1

Five dot model
absolute

Nine levels of development:

> 9/////////9 <
___ 9 levels

______1
_1-----------1 :Times 9 = 21


___________ 21___________

__21_________________21__

21_______________________21

____21_______________21____

_________21_____21__________


9 times 21 = 189

Principle of unification:
Ambidextrous S&N ESNTJ and Ambidextrous T&F INTFP.

Point: 9 and Point: 1 , (9 + 1 = 10)
Point: 5 and Point: 6 , (5 + 6 = 11)

10 + 11 = 21

189 - 138 = 51 , (5 + 1 = 6) six pointed figure.

So there did I get the number value of 138 from?

The bark energy number. 122 zero's and a 138

So the principle of unification came to the number value of 21 but remember that the symbols of the Absolute has at its centre two points of singularity or two dot's one is alway at the at the boundary of the created universe if I recall correctly backwards and forwards but one of the two is always at the centre.

So think of the principle of unification as having a unit value at its mid point a unit value of one and the sum answer adds up to 22 (10 + 1 + 11 = 22)

But it is 122 mark you may say, things happen in steps so perhaps the other one hundred will manifest down the track. I make it ok for now. And I think to my self 45--54 equals 98 + two equals 100. Three times eighteen = 54

I can show you some seeds of a number pattern or patters I am working on that works on the idea that there maybe a hidden third implicate math that may underlie and may host the explicate mathematical order that we generally understand the logic of. But this idea the idea of a third implicate math has different rules and a different structure of operation as if like a fractal it surrounds the decimal point ten system and works by a different rule book that by our natural understand of the rules of the workings of the decimal point it seems nonsensical to consider a math working in such a way, but the interesting thing it that at the enneagram level of structure there seems to me to be a pattern that a working like structure, a math like coding structure.

Thoughts Jarlaxle

 

[Mane]

One other kinda interesting thing in this search in a math like style thought is, eighteen divided by three equals six.

So thoughts of three into three and negative positive neutral are not far from my mind. Nor are other mathematical patterns.

And I ask my self questions like what if in a weird kinda way things are mirrored in a reverse like instead of three time six equals eighteen at a quantum level of inputs three eighteens creates a six ?

I can show you some seeds of a number pattern or patters I am working on that works on the idea that there maybe a hidden third implicate math that may underlie and may host the explicate mathematical order that we generally understand the logic of. But this idea the idea of a third implicate math has different rules and a different structure of operation as if like a fractal it surrounds the decimal point ten system and works by a different rule book that by our natural understand of the rules of the workings of the decimal point it seems nonsensical to consider a math working in such a way, but the interesting thing it that at the enneagram level of structure there seems to me to be a pattern that a working like structure, a math like coding structure.

Thoughts Jarlaxle

We can also find that in the above list by matching it with the common 3x3 separation of enneagram:

6 manifestations of anger:
Physical activity, the need for work out of the body (8w7)
Power, the need for control of will (8w9)
Vengeance, the need to strike back against another person (9w8)
Tranquility, the need to be secure and protected (9w1)
Idealism, the need for social justice (1w9)
Order, the need for prepared, established, and conventional environments (1w2)

6 manifestations of shame:
Romance, the need for mating or sex (2w1)
Family, the need to take care of one’s offspring (2w3)
Social contact, the need for relationship with others (3w2)
Social status, the need for social significance (3w4)
Acceptance - the need to be appreciated (4w3)
Originality, the need to distinct the self from what's around it (4w5)

6 manifestations of anxiety:
Competence, the need to feel useful (5w4)
Curiosity, the need to gain knowledge (5w6)
Honor, the need to be faithful to the customary values of an individual’s ethnic group, family or clan (6w5)
Saving, the need to accumulate something (6w7)
Eating, the need for food (7w6)
Independence, the need to be distinct and self-reliant (7w8)


I am not sure how that would fit with your 6 point system, because I am not sure what those titles mean or what 5 point system it is inspired by.


But let's keep in mind:

 

[KitchenFly]

I don't think you need to mock me , it is ok to search for mathematical structure, my work is not numerology it is mathematics and the search for a hidden structure that may exist..

But what ever, you are dealing with my input into the discussion in the very best way you can for you level of understanding.

Thank you for you contribution to the discussion. I like your anger shame anxiety three part devision of the list well done.

Cheers

 

[KitchenFly]

Five Dot Switch Model.

1 ) -2 on
2) -3 off
3) -2 off
4) -3 on

5) -Four On
6) -One Off

(4+2= six pointed figure) or and six pointed star.

1+2+3+4+5+6 = 21

My model gets complex and its Symmetry's are interesting.

All posable combinations equal 12

2 On times 4 actions
3 Off times 4 actions
4 On
4 Off
1 On
1 Off

2 + 3 + 4 + 4 + 1 + 1 = 15

Five dots ,three times five equals fifteen.

I kinda interpret this as the Law Of Three working within the symmetry's of the five dot model. There is an elegance to its simplicity.

More to come..


Cheers

 

[KitchenFly]

I been thinking about Androgynous F/M sexuality and Holy Love spiritual/religious.

It is interesting I have been flicking though my notes and found two components that may have a place in this conversation.

One component I structured when I was looking at, The Four Classic Temperaments

Phlegmatic, Choleric, Melancholic, Sanguine

Any way one of the shapes I thought about is not new but perhaps as a mechanism it may pertain to the action of the receptivity unto Holy Love and the other the second number patter I will present may apply to the dynamic A-sexual androgynous F/M in its ,active passive neutral actions


__________ 9 0 _________




_ 6 __________________ 3 _



And


___________ 0




_ 2 ___________________ 1



These two triangle shaped actions obviously operate at the 3 6 9 triangle.


And then I have:

0
1 2
3 6 9 18


_1 _____________ 7 _
__ 2 _________ 6 __
____ 3 _____ 5 ____
________ 4 ________


_18 __________ 0 _
__ 9 ________ 1 ___
____ 6 ____ 2 _____
_.______ 3 ________


The two actions must have a mechanism within the enneagram model so I am curious where they may be with in the Total System.

 

[KitchenFly]

Jarlaxle I will try to track the name of the system on the computer.

 

[Chthonic]

I could be wrong but I sense this is an intp lovefest in motion.

 

[KitchenFly]

I could be wrong but I sense this is an intp lovefest in motion.

Sounds like you maybe having a little bit of a reaction within your own 1w9 subtype component of your own inner enneagram, can you expand on the nature of your internal reaction Chthonic?

The term loveliest seems to be a mild punitive reaction.. To a topic that is discussing holy love and androgynous energy,

 

[KitchenFly]

.

 

[yeghor]

Going by this:

• Idealism, the need for social justice (1w9)
• Order, the need for prepared, established, and conventional environments (1w2)
• Romance, the need for mating or sex (2w1)
• Family, the need to take care of one's offspring (2w3)
• Social contact, the need for relationship with others (3w2)
• Social status, the need for social significance (3w4)
• Acceptance - the need to be appreciated (4w3)
• Curiosity, the need to gain knowledge (5w6)
• Honor, the need to be faithful to the customary values of an individual's ethnic group, family or clan (6w5)
• Saving, the need to accumulate something (6w7)
• Eating, the need for food (7w6)
• Independence, the need to be distinct and self-reliant (7w8)
• Physical activity, the need for work out of the body (8w7)
• Power, the need for control of will (8w9)
• Vengeance, the need to strike back against another person (9w8)
• Tranquility, the need to be secure and protected (9w1)

Mane's interpretation about enneagram core desires is quite concise and more or less spot on.

He just missed that:
-E2 is more focused on caregiving and helping others.
-E4 is more focused on being true to self and self-expression.
-E7 is more focused on experiences than sensory pleasures.