A question for Atheists

[Mole]

Is this in reference to the cosmic microwave background?

Well, wherever I stand everything is accelerating away from me.

However in a local area, at the present time, we are held together by gravity.

And indeed there was no explosion - rather it is space that is expanding.

But space is expanding everywhere. It is not expanding from a centre.

If you are a Believer, if you believe in the Big Bang, you might like to show me any evidence whatsoever as to where the Big Bang originated.

But until that time I shall remain a Big Bang atheist.

 

[JocktheMotie]

Well, wherever I stand everything is accelerating away from me.

However in a local area, at the present time, we are held together by gravity.

And indeed there was no big bang, there was no explosion - rather it is space that is expanding.

But space is expanding everywhere. It is not expanding from a centre.

If you are a Believer, if you believe in the Big Bang, you might like to show me any evidence whatsoever as to where the Big Bang originated.

But until that time I shall remain a Big Bang atheist.

I see what you are saying, however just because space expands from every conceivable point does not mean there was not a "center" in the beginning.

For example if you think of the surface of the earth as a point in space, and if the earth was "expanding" it would indeed expand in all directions, however if reversed that process, it would simply "contract" in all directions until US and China were essentially "next" to each other, and for all we could tell they were occupying 1 point.

In any sphere, there is still a center despite the apparent absence of one for any being on the surface. You cannot point to a location on the "surface" of space and say "here is the center," true; however as I have shown, that doesn't mean there wasn't a single point and location of "creation" to begin with.

 

[Mole]

I see what you are saying, however just because space expands from every conceivable point does not mean there was not a "center" in the beginning.

For example if you think of the surface of the earth as a point in space, and if the earth was "expanding" it would indeed expand in all directions, however if reversed that process, it would simply "contract" in all directions until US and China were essentially "next" to each other, and for all we could tell they were occupying 1 point.

In any sphere, there is still a center despite the apparent absence of one for any being on the surface. You cannot point to a location on the "surface" of space and say "here is the center," true; however as I have shown, that doesn't mean there wasn't a single point and location of "creation" to begin with.

This is true.

And if we compare the two dimensional surface of a sphere to the three dimensional universe, we can say, metaphorically that the universe does have an 'inner' centre.

And so just as mathematics has imaginary numbers, we can say the universe has an imaginary centre.

And just as we can say a watch has a watchmaker, we can say the universe has an imaginary universemaker. And let us call our imaginary universemaker, God.

And so I can see no reason not to call our imaginary centre of the Universe, the home of God.

And so we will have our imaginary friend dwelling at the imaginary centre of the Universe.

 

[heart]

If you are a Believer, if you believe in the Big Bang, you might like to show me any evidence whatsoever as to where the Big Bang originated.

But until that time I shall remain a Big Bang atheist.

I am a Big Bang agnostic.

 

[JocktheMotie]

This is true.

And if we compare the two dimensional surface of a sphere to the three dimensional universe, we can say, metaphorically that the universe does have an 'inner' centre.

And so just as mathematics has imaginary numbers, we can say the universe has an imaginary centre.

And just as we can say a watch has a watchmaker, we can say the universe has an imaginary universemaker. And let us call our imaginary universemaker, God.

And so I can see no reason not to call our imaginary centre of the Universe, the home of God.

And so we will have our imaginary friend dwelling at the imaginary centre of the Universe.

Technically, the inner centre is more commonly referred to as "the past."

But I don't want to dismiss your equivalence of God and the Universe. I don't think it is that far a stretch to view them as one and the same, and I certainly cannot prove that comparison wrong.

 

[Mole]

I am a Big Bang agnostic.

Perhaps I can convert you to Big Bang atheism.

For there was no explosion. Things did not explode away from each other.

Rather each thing remained stationary and space expanded between them.

And space continues to expand today at an accelerating rate.

But I don't want to leave you bereft. So rather than being a Big Bang atheist you might become a Big Expansion believer.

And believers are much nicer than atheists, don't you think?

 

[Mole]

Technically, the inner centre is more commonly referred to as "the past."

But I don't want to dismiss your equivalence of God and the Universe. I don't think it is that far a stretch to view them as one and the same, and I certainly cannot prove that comparison wrong.

Good on you, mate.

And indeed I am tempted to make a repast of the past.

 

[Jeremy]

Wrath does seem fairly important to most religions.

I think that lies in the fact that mankind is so addicted to violence, and therefore tends to glorify it. But I don't glorify it, and I don't think it should be glorified.

 

[Fluffywolf]

And believers are much nicer than atheists, don't you think?

Why do you think that? Because believers stop asking questions?

 

[Jeremy]

Why do you think that? Because believers stop asking questions?

If believers stopped asking questions, there would be no atheists.

 

[Fluffywolf]

Having faith causes a person to stop questioning?

 

[AOA]

I believe every single person carries a kind of 'religiosity' - it's possibly why we're still going. That's basically justification to our actions, but for who ultimately?

... And I can't doubt that every single person, too, kept up atleast a moment in their life thinking about God.

Unfortunately, I can't prove that without a kind of discussion. So here's to the atheists - do you really not believe in a God?

(It's a rhetorical question - answer it if you want.)

 

[Fluffywolf]

It's not that I don't believe in God. It's that I am incapable of believing in God. As, for me, it feels like I'm hiding from something if I try to believe in God, or that I'm trying to lie to myself. It feels wrong. It just goes against my essence to unconditionally believe anything.

 

[ptgatsby]

Unfortunately, I can't prove that without a kind of discussion. So here's to the atheists - do you really not believe in a God?

I do not, although "not" carries a special meaning to me. It means that I assign the probability of any claim that is not evidenced as infinitely low.

The religiousity that you talk about is, to me, just interpretation of how morality and ethics developped in humans.

 

[AOA]

It just goes against my essence to unconditionally believe anything.

... Any thing? Even though the belief in a God - whether you believe in a God or not, was considered important any way?

I do not, although "not" carries a special meaning to me. It means that I assign the probability of any claim that is not evidenced as infinitely low.

The religiousity that you talk about is, to me, just interpretation of how morality and ethics developped in humans.

Fair enough.

... That's one way of looking at it.

 

[Fluffywolf]

... Any thing? Even though the belief in a God - whether you believe in a God or not, was considered important any way?

If I can't rationalize it, then I will not believe it.

In smaller cases, like for example trust in relationships, I am willing to take that leap of belief. Because whatever the result may be, it's oversee-able.

But with faiths and religions, I feel much better not believing any of it. (Doesn't mean there are passages or sentences within religious texts that don't speak to me, on the contrary, I get quite some inspiration from religions. I just don't believe in all the supernatural stuff and unlikely stories that comes with it. )

 

[AOA]

That's fine, and understandable - I was simply pointing out that, under normal circumstances, the belief in a God has come to mind in a lot of people (right to the individual level). You said along the lines of "unconditionally believe anything" - well ofcourse, nobody in their sane minds would naively believe anything. It's a fact.

... However, the belief in a God is unique to believing in 'anything' because the criterion for the belief in a God never required someone else's word, consensus or thought - it's a personal matter that we attend to. That is why it is important, and has been... not to simply justify our actions, but for the rest of our lives. Belief in a God is something important, because it's central... more like, universal.

None the less, I'm not against your faith, and can respect you. Simply addressing the importance in the belief.

 

[Feops]

One of the perks of atheists is that they are generally able to admit that they simply don't know. A concrete answer to every question is not required.

Where's the nearest inhabitable planet? I don't know. Does this mean such a planet doesn't exist or can't be known to exist? Of course not. Should I perhaps throw some tea leaves in hopes that the spirit of wind aligns them in such a way to enlighten me? Of course not.

How did the universe come into being? Heck if I know. This doesn't rationalize a supernatural or mystical fallback though. It's okay to admit ignorance. The universe is huge and mysterious.

Edits: Reworded a bit.

 

[JocktheMotie]

One of the perks of atheists is that they are generally able to admit that they simply don't know. Theories sure, educated guesses sure, certainty, no.

Where's the nearest inhabitable planet? I don't know. Does this mean such a planet doesn't exist or can't be known to exist? Of course not.

How did the universe come into being? Heck if I know. This doesn't rationalize a supernatural or mystical fallback though. It's okay to admit ignorance. The universe is huge and mysterious.

I was under the impression this point of view was agnosticism. Atheists, I thought were those who were relatively positive there was no deity. Which is a position that is as equally based on belief as Theists.

 

[Fluffywolf]

Yeah, no deity. A natural occurance, whichever that occurance was.