A popular misconception about identity politics...

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

To them it makes them appear like conservative-like and quickly leads to calls of racisim and the like when it isn't actually present. It's really an issue of prioritization and lack of understanding of the complexity of it.

I find this to be true, and it makes me very angry. It made me check out of things for a long time.

The right plays identity politics too, but they largely run against it in one way or another. It's more that they hate it or don't understand the importance of it or how it effects them. The right has their own concepts of identity in the US and can get very very upset and angry if it's challenged, far moreso than those on the left. Grow up in a conservative household and its very very apparent. One of the core issues with it all is many many people on the right (almost all of which are in the trump-supporter camp) are incredibly emotionally damaged people who lack the ability to properly self-reflect and understand how this effects their world views and how they can harm others. Much of it goes back to childhood and the overall culture of the brand of low-intellectual conservatisism. This is a major, major reason why so many trump supporters actively ignore reality and facts, because they are unknowingly so invested in the identities that the Trump movement has created. It lets them feel smart, healthy, like they are part of something, and like the understand things at a far greater level than everyone else. To have this inflation broken - something few of them have experienced in their lives prior to this and it feels good/brings much needed happiness - they are not going to allow anything to pop it, and generally lack the emotional experience and knowledge to walk this path. Their identities are too wrapped up with it and they care too much about it, and aren't even aware of it. It's not really identity politics in the way it is on the left, but it is certainly a wrapped up identity.

I see lots of dumb posts from older relatives (some of whom are apolitical) on Facebook about the flag. They act like people are trying to ban the flag or something.Like "upvote if you think we should still be allowed to fly the flag".

Or the dumb "remember 9/11" posts. (Yes, I too remember 9/11).

To me, that stuff is also a kind of identity politics.

 

[Maou]

I think it's pretty reflective of the Republican approach to compromise in policy-making, actually. You did a very good job at illustrating it.




Um, my interest is not just voting for a "winning" candidate. Is this why you switched to Trump from Obama?

I don't think Trump has the best interests of the country in mind. In fact, I think Trump is a "fucking horrible person." Why would I vote for him?

If I was really pissed about the way the DNC handled things, I'd write somebody in or vote third party. I wouldn't vote for, Trump, lol. He's a corrupt greedy ridiculous fool.

I voted for Trump based on character and policy. He isn't a Republican, and neither am I. His policy isn't nearly as hawkish, but more strict on the home front. Which is a good thing imo.

I think your view of Trump was influenced by the media, simply because equally disgusting people have been propped up by it in the Democratic sphere. Come on, 3 years of 90% negative media will affect you based on pure psychology affect. This would override any soft opinion on policy. I think Trump is very moderate in terms of Republicanism. He was Democrat for years afterall. I assumed he switched, because it was the Democrats who shipped jobs overseas. I feel Trump actually likes America. Its not uncommon to have a desire for your home to win. Think about it, one of the richest people in the world likes America... why? Opportunity? The culture? Genuine appreciation?

If I was a Sanders supporter, I'd be pissed too. You might haved missed it, but Ron Paul had an equal problem in busting through the RNC walls. He was ignored, despite overwhelming support. Imagine if it was Ron Paul vs Obama. Wew. I can relate to the excitemrnt you have for Sanders.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

I voted for Trump based on character and policy. He isn't a Republican, and neither am I. His policy isn't nearly as hawkish, but more sttict on the home front. Which is a good thing imo.

I think your view of Trump was influenced by the media, simply because equally disgusting people have been propped up by it in the Democratic sphere.

I agree. That doesn't mean I'm going to vote for Trump.

Come on, 3 years of 90% negative media will affect you based on pure psychology affect. This would override any doft opinion on policy. I think Trump is very moderate in terms of Republicanism. He was Democrat for years afterall. I assumed he switched, because it was the Democrats who shipped jobs overseas. I feel Ttump actually likes America. Its not uncommon to have a desirr for your home to win.

Problem is, I think he's actually making it lose. The fact that he's less hawkish isn't so bad, but I'm still worried he might start something with Iran. I'm also not opposed to protectionism. It's everything else I object to.

Think about it, one of the richest people in the world likes America... why? Opportunity? The culture?

I don't particularly care if he likes America or not.

If I was a Sanders supporter, I'd be pissed too. You might haved missed it, but Ron Paul had an equal problem in busting through the RNC walls. He was ignored, despite overwhelming support. Imagine if it was Ron Paul vs Obama. Wew. I can relate to the excitemrnt you have for Sanders.

I think he actually is a decent person, yes. I don't consider it bad that he hasn't been able to get a lot of his measures through government, because a lot of the people around him had terrible views. So, of course they wouldn't get any of that stuff done.

 

[á´…eparted]

I find this to be true, and it makes me very angry. It made me check out of things for a long time.

Oh, me too. Tremendously. There were a few people on the forums (who are no longer active) that I ran into this with and to this day I am still very sour to them because of it. Though I've run into it far more often in person. On some respects they were correct, everyone is racist and it is all of our duties to take the time to explore it, search it, and work through it. I didn't appreciably start doing this until 2017. Part of the reason it took me that long to really be able to do it was because I held so much resentment against those who accused me of harboring it as it was often very shame-based (which I don't tolerate, and it seldom works on anyone in a positive way), and they wouldn't listen when I tried to explain why I tried to explain the economic side of it. Hardly motivating, and it felt like they were tackling the wrong people. It's like "um, HELLO, the right is clearly the larger problem, why do you not bother to ever poke them?". Worse when they actually get mad at you for being harsh against actually racists? Like, what? That ultimately circles back to the left-center excessively clinging to civility. When I actually did take to heart what they said I also discovered my own personal racism, sexism, etc. was significantly smaller and less impactful than implied, but I was also very surprised at how sticky and resistant it was and I was to change with it. It really gave me a deep insight into why racisim, sexism, etc is so utterly intractable in so many people, and I understand why it is and need to be fought so consistently against as it takes a long time. The individual also has to be in a good and safe place to do that work.

I see lots of dumb posts from older relatives (some of whom are apolitical) on Facebook about the flag. They act like people are trying to ban the flag or something.Like "upvote if you think we should still be allowed to fly the flag".

Or the dumb "remember 9/11" posts. (Yes, I too remember 9/11).

To me, that stuff is also a kind of identity politics.

I don't talk to conservatives anymore. They have to be a unique case for me to do so. Reality has become so cut and try that if they don't see it at this point it's either because they can't from being too damaged in one way or another or to filled with hate, or do see it and don't give a damn. Neither will ever change and to argue with them is an utter waste of time and energy. The low-informed ones are the ones who you would waste the most energy on. It's no different than trying to argue with a flat-earther. If someone won't acknowledge reality any sort of meaningful discussion with them is impossible.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Oh, me too. Tremendously. There were a few people on the forums (who are no longer active) that I ran into this with and to this day I am still very sour to them because of it. Though I've run into it far more often in person. On some respects they were correct, everyone is racist and it is all of our duties to take the time to explore it, search it, and work through it. I didn't appreciably start doing this until 2017. Part of the reason it took me that long to really be able to do it was because I held so much resentment against those who accused me of harboring it as it was often very shame-based (which I don't tolerate, and it seldom works on anyone in a positive way), and they wouldn't listen when I tried to explain why I tried to explain the economic side of it. Hardly motivating, and it felt like they were tackling the wrong people. It's like "um, HELLO, the right is clearly the larger problem, why do you not bother to ever poke them?". Worse when they actually get mad at you for being harsh against actually racists? Like, what? That ultimately circles back to the left-center excessively clinging to civility. When I actually did take to heart what they said I also discovered my own personal racism, sexism, etc. was significantly smaller and less impactful than implied, but I was also very surprised at how sticky and resistant it was and I was to change with it. It really gave me a deep insight into why racisim, sexism, etc is so utterly intractable in so many people, and I understand why it is and need to be fought so consistently against as it takes a long time. The individual also has to be in a good and safe place to do that work.

It's tricky and hard to do that, and I agree that it does have value.

I don't talk to conservatives anymore. They have to be a unique case for me to do so. Reality has become so cut and try that if they don't see it at this point it's either because they can't from being too damaged in one way or another or to filled with hate, or do see it and don't give a damn. Neither will ever change and to argue with them is an utter waste of time and energy. The low-informed ones are the ones who you would waste the most energy on. It's no different than trying to argue with a flat-earther. If someone won't acknowledge reality any sort of meaningful discussion with them is impossible.

I think it can be good to make your case to people on the fence, or boost morale for people on your side. But yeah, I don't think I'm going to change the mind of anyone who thinks Trump is an awesome person.

 

[Maou]

I agree. That doesn't mean I'm going to vote for Trump.

Problem is, I think he's actually making it lose. The fact that he's less hawkish isn't so bad, but I'm still worried he might start something with Iran. I'm also not opposed to protectionism. It's everything else I object to.

I don't particularly care if he likes America or not.

Im not saying vote for Trump, just asking you to acknowledge he isn't as bad as the media says he is. I also don't understsnd how you think he is making Americs lose on anything besides appearances. Because honestly, if all your allies are going into the shitter. Do you want to follow suit? I respect what Trump has done, purely by showing America has s mind of its own. Not being an ally's bitch to bend the knee. Not always being a sheep.

So how exactly is America losing? When everything it used as an example in disagreement, is fucking up its allies?

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Im not saying vote for Trump, just asking you to acknowledge he isn't as bad as the media says he is. I also don't understsnd how you think he is making Americs lose on anything besides appearances.

Sorry, I remember how you treated me the last time I compromised. And yes, I believe you did ask me to change my vote.

So how exactly is America losing? When everything it used as an exsmple in disagreement, is fucking up its allies?

Not investing in education, infrastructure, health care, or the environment, just to name a few things.

 

[Maou]

Sorry, I remember how you treated me the last time I compromised.

Not investing in education, infrastructure, health care, or the environment, just to name a few things.

Pretty sure you never compromised anything, as that actually requires something to give.

3 years isn't enough time to do everything, and yes Trump has invested in infrastructure, and the enviroment. You just don't care to educate yourself.

President Trump’s FY2020 budget on spending $200 billion on infrastructure: PwC
Ironically the result of COMPROMISE.

US should be the hero in the climate story | TheHill

America leads in clean fossil fuel energy, and pollutants are down 73%.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

President Trump’s FY2020 budget on spending $200 billion on infrastructure: PwC
Ironically the result of COMPROMISE.

I thought they didn't compromise.

Regarding the environment:

First, pollution levels are at their lowest point on record, according to the EPA itself. Its latest data on the presence of six different types of pollutants — ozone, nitrous oxide, particulate matter, sulfur dioxide, carbon monoxide and lead — the ones actually shown to harm human health — are down a whopping 73 percent since the EPA began keeping records in 1970.

Yes, since 73% since the EPA started. Seems to me that's also on every president before Trump. How does Trump stack up vs. Obama?

 

[Maou]

I thought they didn't compromise.

Progressives do not compromise. Can you read? I clearly stated Progressives, not the entire Democratic party.

 

[anticlimatic]

Moderate democrats adopted identity politics from the far left, which has them so deeply embedded in their theocracy that they never even need be mentioned on the surface. They are taken for granted as a natural law, and aren't mentioned for the same reason people don't quote Isaac Newton when they are explaining how to change a tire. Moderate democrats are not true believers, but they need the votes, so they pander and emulate in typical clunky fashion. If the far left finally stopped beating around the bush and founded a church, most of them would be there every sunday for fellowship, scripture, and acts of contrition- while the moderates would only show up on christmas and easter.

 

[Maou]

I thought they didn't compromise.

Regarding the environment:

First, pollution levels are at thei... since the EPA began keeping records in 1970.

Yes, since 73% since the EPA started. Seems to me that's also on every president before Trump. How does Trump stack up vs. Obama?

Idk, your link is broken. Says its #blocked.

Also, I don't believe co2 is the number one cause of climate change. It is deforestation and pollution in developing countries. Are you just going to tell them to not develop?

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Idk, your link is broken. Says its #blocked.

It should be a quote. I fixed it.

 

[Tellenbach]

Not investing in education, infrastructure, health care, or the environment, just to name a few things.

You're kidding right? We spend more on education and healthcare than any other nation. The problem isn't lack of money, it's the model itself. There needs to be competition in education and healthcare and far less government intrusion.

From the perspective of a libertarian (we're the true moderates, btw), this current iteration of the Democrats is extremist. Even a "moderate" like Joe Biden or Mayor Pete supports extreme positions like late term abortion and open borders. Remember that first debate? Every Dem on that stage raised their hands when asked if they supported free health insurance for illegal immigrants. That's way outside the mainstream of what ordinary Americans think.

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

No it didn't, thats just what you were told to believe. The most authoritarian thing Trump has done was assassinate the guy I cannot spell the name of.

The founding fathers told us to not use parties to begin with, we didn't listen and now we have a two party system. Aka, we fucked up, and continue to fuck up every time we divide ourselves as anything but American. America was suppose to appeal to an idea, not a group of people. That idea was equal opportunity reguardless of race or creed etc. Sure America fucked up, but The past should stay the past. If people looked forward rather than backwards, and stopped attempts to correct every fuck up. Then we can actually change to prevent further fuck ups, and actually be productive. This blame game bullshit gets us nowhere. The people are not going to stop making mistakes, and that is okay. Compromise is very important because you can get some of what you want, and your opponents do too . Everyone is happy, unlesss your a greedy fascist.

I found myself agreeing with this part, even thinking to myself, "she's not quite the extremist some of the other members make her out to be"

but then I got to this part:

Now I know I laugh at Progressives, I admit, that is on me. I am also present for salt farming. Because honestly, its like way too easy to offend them. You have to question someone's character when they have the emotional maturity of a child. I don't feel any desire or loyalty to follow or believe people who display an exorbitant amount of weakness, lack of realistic tangible goals with an actual end, and leadership skills. How could anyone? Even if I agree with what they say. Just because you agree with an idea, doesn't mean you should blindly follow them and ignore their methods of actions. How do you put up with someone who, for example. Supports Black lives matters or Antifa, and ignores their violence and fear tactics? If you think its "worth it" then you yourself are the very thing you claim fascists to be. I would much rather follow someone like Candice Owens. But you know the worst part? Progressives treat Owens like shit, and are obscenely racist towards her. That once again, tells me of their character. Its rampant in Progressives, Sanders supporters, etc. How do you expect me to ever be convinced of changing sides to the one with horrible fucking people in it? That is more than enough reason to not vote Democrat ever again.

I have already explained in a different post why I support Trump a while back and why I excuse him from being an asshole. Because like me, he sees their shitty juvenile characters and pisses them off because its easy, and he can use it to his advantage.

You make a lot of assumptions and blanket statements, to the point that I wonder, how many actual progressives have you encountered beyond youtube reaction videos about guys like Shapiro and Crowder "owning" progressive college students?

Sorry, I can't take you seriously when you can one moment talk about the need for compromise and understanding (not to mention your past 'woe-is-me, the libs on the forum are mean to conservatives' whining), only to follow up with blanket statements bashing an entire group and calling them whiners. You have no self-awareness, and it just makes your self-righteous rants all the more amusing. You ask for understanding and tolerance yet clearly have none to offer to certain groups of people you choose to generalize and characterize as emotional children.



I get it now, why so many members have a problem with you. You're a big, fat, walking, talking double standard no one really wants around anymore. I get why discord goes silent every time you drop in and start one of your political rants. You brought this on yourself.

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

You're kidding right? We spend more on education and healthcare than any other nation. The problem isn't lack of money, it's the model itself. There needs to be competition in education and healthcare and far less government intrusion.

Why does everything have to modeled after business? This isn't propane or steel we're talking about.

 

[anticlimatic]

I found myself agreeing with this part, even thinking to myself, "she's not quite the extremist some of the other members make her out to be"

but then I got to this part:



You make a lot of assumptions and blanket statements, to the point that I wonder, how many actual progressives have you encountered beyond youtube reaction videos about guys like Shapiro and Crowder "owning" progressive college students?

Sorry, I can't take you seriously when you can one moment talk about the need for compromise and understanding (not to mention your past 'woe-is-me, the libs on the forum are mean to conservatives' whining), only to follow up with blanket statements bashing an entire group and calling them whiners. You have no self-awareness, and it just makes your self-righteous rants all the more amusing. You ask for understanding and tolerance yet clearly have none to offer to certain groups of people you choose to generalize and characterize as emotional children.



I get it now, why so many members have a problem with you. You're a big, fat, walking, talking double standard no one really wants around anymore. I get why discord goes silent every time you drop in and start one of your political rants. You brought this on yourself.

While I agree it's silly and somewhat pointless to participate in this forum as anything other than a progressive due to tribalism tendencies, the real world isn't the Internet, and this should be good practice for trying to get along with people who think different. If you think people on the left on this forum (including most moderators) don't make themselves seem just as awful and closed minded and only interested in moving people down their own agendas, think again. Instead of calling them out as terrible, use it as a call to arms for ones self on what not to do.

You were THE forum moderate, but I sense you're slipping away into something more clearly sided and partisan.

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

You were THE forum moderate, but I sense you're slipping away into something more clearly sided and partisan.

I was always a bleeding heart. I had a bit of a lapse after the shitfest that was 2016. If I had to slap a label on myself, it would be heterodox left-winger, in that I align with the left on far more points than I align with the right, but have some key disagreements with the left (for example being more sympathetic to mens rights advocates, supporting nuclear energy, disagreeing on certain popular narratives that characterize a lot of progressives' worldviews, etc).

I actually have two versions of moderates in mind when I see the word. One of these days soon I will start a thread to explain the distinction. To be brief, one type is the weak willed political moderate (usually in elected office) who flips for the sake of political convenience. Their supposed compromising is little more than an effort to remain relevant and survive politically, rather than to compromise for the greater good. I would put the Clintons, Biden, Kerry, and possibly Obama into this group, as well as Republicans like Romney when he ran in 2012. The second type of moderate is characterized by attempting to see and hear all sides of issues, and not to close themselves off from any one viewpoint or person just because they happen to be from "the other side". Think McCain, going against popular consensus to speak out against torture at a time when a lot of people were okay and willing to tolerate it in the early days of the war on terror. Or think Howard Dean, who was more or less a centrist democrat, but had the balls to speak out against the Iraq War at a time when most democrats were going along with Bush because they wanted to keep their seats in congress.

So when I bitch about moderates, it's the former category I'm angry about. The latter is great. I don't think moderation and compromise are bad things per se. I like it when conservatives and progressives are willing to show moderation and work across the aisle. It's what they're working towards and why that counts. When it's toward personal political survival or toward policy that benefits a handful of elites over the greater good, yes, I have an issue. More often than not, recent instances of bi-partisan compromise have been conducted to push policy that benefits the oligarchs and big business at the expense of a majority of citizens. this is why I have lost faith in a lot of moderates. It's why I probably won't vote for Biden after he is coronated by the DNC.

It's not Maou's views I have a problem with so much. It's the blatant double standards in how she can one day expect understanding and compassion from her ideological opposites, when she clearly doesn't seem willing to offer the same in return.

 

[Maou]

I found myself agreeing with this part, even thinking to myself, "she's not quite the extremist some of the other members make her out to be"

but then I got to this part:



You make a lot of assumptions and blanket statements, to the point that I wonder, how many actual progressives have you encountered beyond youtube reaction videos about guys like Shapiro and Crowder "owning" progressive college students?

Sorry, I can't take you seriously when you can one moment talk about the need for compromise and understanding (not to mention your past 'woe-is-me, the libs on the forum are mean to conservatives' whining), only to follow up with blanket statements bashing an entire group and calling them whiners. You have no self-awareness, and it just makes your self-righteous rants all the more amusing. You ask for understanding and tolerance yet clearly have none to offer to certain groups of people you choose to generalize and characterize as emotional children.



I get it now, why so many members have a problem with you. You're a big, fat, walking, talking double standard no one really wants around anymore. I get why discord goes silent every time you drop in and start one of your political rants. You brought this on yourself.

When in Rome, do as the Romans do.

And no, I actually do get along with everyone usually, No matter what they believe. But I've been treated like absolute shit by every Progressive I've met, so pardon me if I learn to amuse myself with the worst ones and be bitter. I have my flaws. Do I think they are stupid etc? No, I just feel they are misguided. But that doesn't make them easier to connect with. You're asking which ones I've met. You got at least 4 people on this forum who hate me purely for political reasons, despite me being perfectly nice to them outside of it. To the point they tried to get me banned. Ive been harassed online many times. I'm smart enough to keep my trap shut irl. But boy if I said anything to some people in real life before. I'd have probably been fired or worse.

Also my communication style is very generalized unintentionally (phone posting usually) I have always come across as such for speed and efficiency. It is a terrible flaw I have.

Also, you made the same mistake Julius made. I was talking policy compromising, not singing kumbaya. Because honestly, no one is going to change or be convinced uless they already want to.

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

But I've been treated like absolute shit by every Progressive I've met, so pardon me if I learn to amuse myself with the worst ones and be bitter.

That's blatantly false. I know for a fact there's a number of members on this forum who are to the left but simply abstain from the politics subforum. I have not seen any of them being mean to you--so you had 4 shitty people treat you like shit on this forum, but that's not every progressive on this forum. I am to the left on most issues, but I used to defend your ass when people like nicodemus attacked you, even though it put me directly in their crosshairs to the point that some people started labelling me an alt right apologist. You can bring up this most recent post where I attacked you, but I did that because I saw you making what seemed like gross generalizations based on interactions with a handful of people. I expect you are similarly offended when people make similar generalizations about trump voters.