When I used the term "oral narcissism" it wasn't pertaining to your singing, or anything literally oral at all. I believe (don't quote me) that is was Naranjo that attributed the term to e3, and "phallic narcissism" to e8. My attribution of that term was more to your insistence on singing when they wanted to find someone else. I read, "me or no one" in that statement, which apparently was not where you were coming from at all.
Ahh I see. Yeah - I had mistyped at 8 for a while and I related to phallic narcissism, but I might have misunderstood, so I am trying not to use that as a reference. I am definitely narcissistic in the "I am special" sense, and in the sense of being more self-absorbed than focused on others, and I can seek admiration in some ways.
I guess "me or no one" applies in a sense. I have no problem playing in a band backing someone up, if I believe in their music etc, but the problem is I don't really enjoy doing music unless I'm singing. I like singing in choirs, I don't need to play the 'lead role' , I just really like singing. Although admittedly in choirs I don't have the same freedom as I do when I sing alone..it's just not the same.
Playing keyboard on its own isn't fun for me, even as a solo. TBH I have been playing since I'm 4 and I have my own style, and people complement me on my playing a lot, but I still don't enjoy it' - its not singing. I've played gigs just as a pianist and even for money, but I don't enjoy it, I don't get that rush. Regardless of the complements. On the contrary my singing voice is difficult, comes and goes, and people have mixed reactions, but I still get the rush.
If someone else wants to sing my songs in their own band, I have a few "rules" - I'd want to record & release a version of it first, and I'd want to sing on that recording because that's part of my vision and how the song came out. If I've already released the cd, then other bands can sing my songs/ pay me/ etc, but I wouldn't join "as a keyboardist" because the whole shlepping of instruments and late nights and crowds and traveling wouldn't be worth it if I'm not singing.
The thing I love most about the Enneagram is that only the individual knows their motivations. All I can ever do when assisting or giving my opinion on type is to provide what I know about each type, not the individual in question (that's their job). Sorry for the misinterpretation!
Oh no!! NOthing to be sorry about. : D That's why questions and thoughts are great - they bring out more thoughts. I love that about enneagram too. You weren't 'presumptuous' (the way I read it) , you were just offering an interpretation.
I think this just describes 4 (rather than a specific wing) as all Individualists struggle with this confidence/unconfidence thing, because we have an envy-shame-envy-shame viscious cycle going.
True
I guess you could be w5 (or at least balanced wings). The only other 4 I know IRL is a 4w3 musician that I've been able to observe pretty well. He's a very down to earth guy when you talk to him (due largely to health) but he does tend to get caught up in the lights and attention and has even talked about his constant struggle to fight that and keep himself humble. That's the core 4's desire for authenticity winning out, but the 3 wing does tug toward accolades and success. It sounds like you don't really experience that.
Yeah.. this is part of why I get confused.
I would never fight to keep myself humble - I actually think humility and modesty are overrated. Success and attention is not what builds my ego - but triumph over adversity, hard work and knowing that I stood up to great strife etc, can definitely build my ego. And I can have a 'big ego' at times, and other times I can have 'not enough' confidence.
I like people who are realistic in their self-assessments. If they boast about their accomplishments or complain about their faults - that's real. If they can be a bit objective about themselves - that's even more real. But I also think bias and self-love or self-hate are natural, instinctual. It's instinctual to think you are 'special' and to have your own interests in mind - if two male animals didn't compete for a female animal, the species wouldn't mate. I find the over-emphasis on modesty to be a silly social construction. But I do think it's good to be humble in the sense of compassionate, realizing your problems aren't bigger than god, having room for others, being able to apologize, realizing what your faults and mistakes are and when to improve, etc.
That's interesting because I think 4's generally tend to be able to talk about themselves easily (in an introspective way). Perhaps that's both your 7 and 8 fix's influence?
Oh I talk about myself easily, it's just the categorization in enneagram terms that is hard. For instance, I'll tell stories from my life, and how I feel about it, ad nauseum, or talk about my ideas and my past.. but having to attribute qualities to myself which I don't see as being that simple.. "Are you confident or unconfident" for instance. This stumps me.
If something just comes out naturally I can talk about myself, but it's the oversimplified categories that stump me. "Are you straight gay or bi?" Well… there was this girl once, and these guys, and..[insert long rant about why this is or isnt relevant] blahblah. So it's a lot of talking, but the question isn't as simple to me as it might seem.
Also I think most qualities are a side of another quality. For instance, idealism and cynicism. These often go together - they are not opposites. Cynics would not be cynical if their ideals weren't crushed. There are some people who just don't care, but idealists and cynics are on the same spectrum. So knowing how paradoxical things are in general, it makes , specifically "LABELING" myself more difficult, whereas TALKING ABOUT myself as it comes up, is natural.
Confidence works this way too. True confidence is one thing; bravado & insecurity is another. Like most people - I have more bravado/insecurity unless I'm healthy.
I do resonate with a lot of what you said here, the feeling grounded, like an animal (hence your name, I see.
) and feeling that being understood is not possible. Oh, how I feel that way. I think i've healead to the point of allowing others in now, but
I choose them. Though I never feel truly understood, if I'm honest I still hope for that one person that might click. I used to be beyond hope, let any sprout of it die by fire, but I've come past that. Somehow. Your comment about "building up strength to ward off vulnerability" sounds all too familliar. I tend to use my 5 wing that way, as a defense mechanism. I grew up fed the message that feeling was not okay (plus I'm Narcoleptic and had to go to bat with
Cataplexy), and thus thinking became my safety.
I'm still learning to allow my vulnerable
truly emotional self to take the lead. Thanks for sharing these thoughts, I value them.
I'm still struggling with that too - learning to allow my vulnerable and emotional self to take the lead. In fact that's the struggle I've been emphasizing lately in my attempts to grow, and it is the biggest struggle of my life too - its a major theme in my music. It seems that I had some triumphs but then I went too far in that direction, and now I'm veering back the other way, back into my armor.
I really relate to what you wrote here about using your 5 wing that way. I build up strength in a similar way. I'd love to hear more about how Cataplexy works? I'm sorry you had to deal with that. It reminds me of something fictional I'm working on - maybe I'll PM you. The character in my novel most similar to me..
It's interesting you latched on to the phrase about building up strength & warding off vulnerability - that was absolutely crucial, and has been a huge reason for my mistypes and misunderstandings with enneagram, but also a major theme in my life. I hadn't thought of it necessarily as a 5 wing thing, but the past few weeks I was starting to make that connection and what you wrote here is.. noted.
I had to rely on my mind too for various reasons. I couldn't walk for a while, and I've had to gain power through robot-mode from a young age, with a person who was temperamental & much larger than me. I learned the "you can't get a reaction out of me unless I let you" game. It's like I go to my 'detached' place and take control?
The Enneagram Institute has this awesome quote about the animal factor (that I know I've posted on the forum somewhere already, but here it is again):
"More than any other personality type, healthy Fours are the bridge between the spiritual and the animal in human nature because they are so aware of these two sides of themselves. They sense in themselves the depths to which human beings can descend, as well as the heights to which they can be swept up. No other personality type is as habitually aware of the potentials and predicaments of human nature: human beings are spiritual animals occupying an uneasy place between two orders of existence. Fours sense both sides of their potentially conflicting natures, and they suffer intensely or are ecstatic because of them. This is why, at their best, healthy Fours create something which can move others deeply because they have been able to get in touch with the hidden depths of human nature by delving deeply into their own. By doing so, they transcend themselves, and are able to discover something universal about human nature, fusing personal conflicts and divergent feelings into art."
Source
here.
The healthier I have become, the more I feel that way-- it's such beautiful redemption.
I agree about feeling that way when healthy though I had a more negative association with animalism when unhealthy. It's so great, this quote. I relate so much!!! I will show you something from my MOTM on PerC:
Why did you choose "Animal" as your username?
I am animal, human, and symbol at once.
~ Animal is my instinct, appetite & desire, my will to survive.
~ Human is my mind, ideas, and imagination.
~ Symbol is my identity, my significance, my place in the world, my legacy.
I call myself Animal because that is my barest foundation, whereas symbol is a result of my actions. My symbolism is out of my control, dependent upon how other people view me as a human animal. If I achieve clarity about who I am, and act with passion and purpose, the symbol speaks for itself, and it speaks honestly. Symbol is the only part of me that will transcend mortality, but the path to the universe is through the core. By cutting myself down to my most base, staring my animal in the face, and embracing it, I learn the nature of my humanity. Honesty, clarity and purpose shape the symbol.
On a more personal level, I chose my username because:
~ I learned most of my behavior from my first cat. My second cat refined me.
~ I relate to animals. I indulge in carnal musical showers, long walks in nature, immersion in the elements. I’m comfortable with nudity. I love to sweat and get dirty. I love any form of metaphorical hunting. I read body language. I am helplessly empathetic but ultimately survivalist. I want my steak, music and sex primal and bloody.
~ Animals are my favorite company.
____
{As a side note, my approach to my own 'symbolism' is also congruent with how I don't like to "label" myself but rather let my expression speak for itself.}
Totally, no worries. As aforementioned, the Enneagram is a tool that can only be implemented by the knower of motivations (you). I'm never surprised when an assumption of mine is wrong, especially with typology.
Oh me neither. ANd it's all good - I wasn't taking it as "accusations" or even "assumptions" - they were conclusions based on the data you had, which only helped me to elaborate further. It's cool =D
Just to be clear, this says w5 to you? I get dressed fully (it's a form of expression for me) every day even if I'm just working from home.
I'm not sure if it says anything enneagram related. I don't dress fully if I'm working from home (in fact that's adorable that you do) but I do dress symbolically and expressively all the time, even at home. My clothes, color scheme, etc, all has meaning. It's about meaning and beauty rather than glamor- but also mobility, comfort, expression of my body language. I don't like turtlenecks constricting me and I don't like high heels constricting my natural movement. When I go out, I still put more emphasis on meaning, and for instance yesterday I felt like crap so I went to pick up my medications in my pajamas. But I still need to feel like I'm dressing to EXPRESS where I'm at , in that moment. I wouldn't dress like crap if I felt amazing. My body matches my mood matches my thoughts. It's all expression. That's different from "dressing UP" though. It's more of a natural way of life. It doesn't take more "time" than NOT dressing expressively because all of my colors and clothes mean something, and it's all right there. I have an eye for beauty and a love for it.. in fact, beauty is holy … so that too, is there. But some standard for fashion statements is not there as much. Although there have been periods in my life when dressing expressively included tremendous makeup and glamour and intensity. Because of what I was going through.
How dressed up do you get?
Quite so.
I'm completely the wrong person to ask about that because I don't beleive every Enneagram type
can be every MBTI type. I have trouble buying extroverted 4, 5 or 9 (they
are called the withdrawn types for a reason) and introverted 3 and 7. I can totally see how someone might
look like one of those combinations but I beleive that can be explained by health and other aspects of the enneagram. For example: a very unhealthy 3 disintegrating to 9 might look like an introverted layabed, and a So first 9 might seem like an extrovert because of their instinctual preferences. There's my two cents.
Ah I see. They say ENFP is common for type 4 - you don't agree? What is your MBTI? I have considered INFP as well.