One interesting thing that was brought up somewhere else was "back-justification". Beliefs are often formed when a person finds justification for a set of ideas, then takes and holds those ideas as dear to them. But we've seen cases where people move in the opposite direction: they take hold of a belief first, then build a justification for it afterwards. Could this be how SJs form their values? Why do you think this is or isn't the case? (Do you think that anyone actually does this? Are those people SJs?)
I imagine all temperaments have done this at one time or another (rather similar to making a decision based on feelings, and then rationalizing it later with logic), but perhaps SJ's are more likely. I really don't know, though.
Cimarron said:
We had guessed the difference between NF Ideals and SJ Values is that SJ Values are somehow more concrete. I wasn't sure how such a thing would be possible. I figured that nearly all thought is anchored, even if partially or indirectly, to the real (physical/concrete) world...but somehow for SJs, this was more true than others? How do you make one set of Values more attached to the real world than another set (of NF Ideals, for example)? The posts above are starting to suggest ways to tell the two apart.
I do not know that concrete/abstract is the right way to approach the difference, but I do think the real world/'reality' vs. 'what could be' could be more of a distinction.
I've been pondering all of this, and actually
hmmm's response is what got me to start really thinking about what the key SJ differences might be. I am going to highlight a few phrases that really stuck out to me, and that I think begin to illustrate a key difference in the value-creation
approach/focus between the NF and the SJ. She wrote:
hmmm said:
I don't know if this is answering the question but the biggest reason why I like traditional values is because I have analyzed them in detail and concluded that they are what is best for not only myself but everyone around me. They are best for society as a WHOLE. I have also analyzed values based on my own individual desires or needs and concluded that, although they may benefit me greatly, they may not be the best thing for other people around me.
Now this is not to say that the NF's, when generating values, are not also looking at what is best for those around them.
But I am going to take what hmm wrote and branch from it - and by doing this I'm not saying this is what hmm is saying with what she wrote. I'm just going to write what I started thinking about when I read hmm's response.
I started thinking that from a really large societal framework, I could see how it would make sense to keep things running smoothly, everyone doing what they are 'supposed' to be doing, from a societal perspective, not really breaking the mold or causing a disruption in the overall framework. Concrete example: Everyone working a 9 to 5 job, earning a living, supporting the economy, providing for self and others. This not only supports the individual, but also supports the larger society/culture - keeping the system moving, all the parts working together. This system might 'work'. It is reality, in a sense.
The SJ might observe the culture they are in, see it for what it IS, accept it for what it IS, as a given, or as a 'Fact', and then develop values accordingly (obviously you'll have to correct me if I'm saying blatantly untrue things about SJ's - I'm just thinking this out).
Concrete example - maintain a stable job, and work diligently at that job. People who would not follow what IS, and work against what IS, or develop something very drastic like saying what IS is not good - might be more of an NF thing to do. NF might question the very foundations the society is built upon - is capitalism necessarily a good thing in the large scheme? Do I believe this day to day existance is really what life is about? This is where you get into NF idealism -- and in some cases sheer impracticality or perhaps avoidance of 'reality' (although in some cases, the idealism itself will be a powerful enough force to enact change on a societal level) -- pushing against the fabric of what the culture runs on, or disrupting the peace (as in stability)/flow of what the society is built upon.
Lots of other examples from history, on large cultural movements - anything human-rights related, really. The 'norm', or what has been accepted and integrated into a cultural level, getting turned upside down by those who question the foundation of the morals/'rules'/system on which the culture is based (and no, it doesn't have to be NF's who enact the change - could be NT's, SP's, SJ's -- I'm just illustrating an example).
Personal concrete, real-life example: I have been taking long vacations, and just quit my job, will be unemployed for 6-7 months, and will be traveling for a while. Societal standards (SJ standards) are such that I'm going against the grain - it is kind of an accepted notion that, in general, people will work until retirement, and at that time, THEN they can 'have fun', relax, and travel. I don't believe it has to be that way, nor is it that way in many other cultures. I'm the odd ball out in my work environment, doing this sort of thing, and initial reactions from SJ's (family members) are that it's rather irresponsible, I 'should' be building equity in a house, or something, I 'should' be getting married, raising a family, settling down into a career of my choosing, and building from there. They have a difficult time understanding, and I think part of it is just that it goes against the grain of what the culture and 'American Dream' is built upon.
Cimarron said:
Do you think it's accurate to say that part of the reason "SJ values and tradition" are usually looked down on is because they seem like unfounded or untested assumptions?
I don't know that I view it as unfounded or untested. Rather, similar to above, it's more that I do not prioritize our Society itself first, and I am not concerned with preserving our society as such - and I think SJ's are more concerned with preserving our society as it is. That's what I was getting at earlier when I said I look elsewhere to other cultures (and again, I'm NOT saying people of other temperaments, including SJ's, don't do this).
Because really, I don't necessarily value our society as it is right now -- and am not concerned with maintaining it, because I don't agree with a lot of our cultures' priorities/values. So in that sense, I look more towards humanity as a whole, and look at what our own nation could be, but is not. NF's might actually work AGAINST what is providing stability to a culture, due to an underlying principle the culture is founded upon -- which would alarm SJ's. Because the reality is that disrupting the flow of the culture is going to cause potential chaos, and a lot of changes.
Interestingly enough, isn't a statement like "All assumptions and values should be questioned" a value itself? I don't know if it's possible to escape all assumptions.
Yes, I think it's a value too.