[MBTI General] NF and SJ Relationships

[Bubbles]

I've been seeing a lot of NFs complaining about relationships with SJs (mostly xSTJs) in the NF Idyllic and I was wondering the SJ side of things. Have you been in a successful relationship with an NF? Have you had problems in a relationship with one, like many NFs seem to suggest?

Personally, I've always felt a roadblock with xSTJs, and that's a generalization of the ones I've met so far. Which, of course, isn't a fair assessment.

I want to understand better, so feedback would be appreciated.

 

[Saslou]

I am sorry darling .. Can't help you out there.

 

[TopherRed]

I'm not commenting for the SJs, just adding my four quarters...

Most NFs, even the NJs put priority on Relationship OVER Object Task.
Most SJs, even the SFs put priority on Object Task OVER Relationship.

This is a cannoical order that we follow; when somebody violates that order, we feel distant from that person. I don't care about the laundry as much as I care about going out with my friends...it's really hard to date somebody who cares more about the laundry than socializing, and/or talking about people/community. Object Task serves my Relational Priorities; I'll make a buffet, clean my house from top to bottom, and even make sure my laundry is out of sight, so long as people are coming over.

 

[Habba]

Does two dates equal a successful relationship?

Well, I was in a relationship with an INFJ (although some months after break-up she changed her type into an ENFJ..) for four months..

Can't say if the break-up was a NF-SJ clash or not. We didn't really clash at all. But we seemed to genuinely like each other for the time being.


Now that I think of, NFs I've dated had problems saying what they felt towards me. As if they were patronizing me and trying to keep me from being hurt by how they felt towards me. Like this INFJ I dated, she didn't have time to see me for over a month, and so I had to push her to give me some answers. Only after then could she tell me that she didn't have her heart in this anymore, and cried. I was just like: "Okay, well.. wasn't that obvious?".

So I sometimes feel that NFs act patronizingly towards SJs and their feelings.

But like flies like fire, I like NFs too.

 

[Gerbah]

>> So I sometimes feel that NFs act patronizingly towards SJs and their feelings. <<

Gosh, I'm ISTJ too and had the same problem with my INFJ ex-best friend that she became really patronising. Only we'd been friends for about 15 years.

We were super close. While we were close, it was great. I supported and understood her in a way nobody else could at the time and she did the same for me. We both had problems with our families growing up and we helped one another through the bad times. We had lots of great times too. We were so close we could “feel” each other over distances and I could see in dreams what was happening to her and what she was thinking/feeling. It's sad we aren't friends any more. I actually started a thread about her recently (called “INFJs and people close to them?”). I'm relatively new to the website and I recognised her in stuff I read in the NF Idyllic and wanted to understand better why she had changed the way she did. I left the relationship because I couldn't handle her arrogance any more. There were also strange jealousy and control issues. If you're interested in the details you can read that thread, I think it's still up on page 1 or 2 of the Idyllic.

Anyway, I'm just one ISTJ and we're not all exactly the same (I'm also an Enneagram 5w4) but in my experience, an NF relationship with an ISTJ can be very successful. Most of my good friends in the past and present (not many because on the whole I am rather picky about who I will let in as a close friend) have been/are NFs. I'm very bored by superficial relationships. Either you're my close friend or I don't spend much time on you unless you're someone I'm obligated to spend time with. I generally seek that emotional chemistry and connection with an aim for closeness in friendships.

That said, it wasn't easy for the INFJ I'm talking about to become my friend. We were still in school at the time. I didn't understand at the time why she wanted to be friends with me and why she was coming on so strong so quickly (from my point of view). I was quite standoffish with her, but that was mostly because I was having such a tough time at home with my parents. I was standoffish with everyone. My family life was not a safe or nurturing one and I was very much in my shell and felt unsafe in the world. I'm not like that now as an adult. I have my own family now and have a lovely husband who makes me feel safe. I've found that's made me feel more outgoing but I am generally still very careful with people. I think for most ISTJs it takes a long time to build trust. For a reason I still don't know, this INFJ kept persisting with me until I slowly over time let her closer and closer to me.

So in a nutshell, speaking just of ISTJs (I can't speak for ESTJs) you have to consistently prove yourself as trustworthy over a period of time for an ISTJ to let you in. It can take a lot of patience and persistence (that roadblock you're talking about). The ISTJ needs to feel you're for real and have a sincere interest in them. But once you're in, the friendship will grow and you've got the potential of having a friend for life that you can fulfil all those NF soul connection needs with. And an ISTJ can be very intense. My ENTP husband sometimes says I'm too much for him! But they only share that intensity with a very few chosen people.

 

[Giggly]

Bubbles, what kind of roadblocks do you experience? Can you give some examples? I'm curious about this.

I'm not an xSTJ but I just realized a couple of weeks ago that I pretty much like all the INFPs on the forum (I don't know any in real life). They are just so pleasant and lovable. Who couldn't like them?

 

[Bubbles]

Bubbles, what kind of roadblocks do you experience? Can you give some examples? I'm curious about this.

I'm not an xSTJ but I just realized a couple of weeks ago that I pretty much like all the INFPs on the forum (I don't know any in real life). They are just so pleasant and lovable. Who couldn't like them?

Haha, okay I'll try. And this isn't even a personal attack on xSTJs, it's just in our communication styles.

Hm, so when I talk to people I am a very open person and I don't really have motives about it. I like learning about people, and discussing my thoughts and opinions on things. It's very fluid and natural to me, but when I talk with an xSTJ, I get this vibe of "I'm talking to you hoping to learn specifically this or that." I mean, we can still have good conversations, but that makes me uneasy. I feel put-on-the-spot, like someone expects something from me, and that weirds me out. Also it makes me talk less.

Also, I find xSTJs are more likely to criticize my views on things--not in a mean way, but in a "why do you think that when it's clearly like this to me" way. And they mean well, they totally do, but it can aggravate me. Or intimidate me, depending. Like this one ESTJ girl I've known forever, I still watch what I say around her and feel like I'm stepping on coals in conversation. In addition, when I complain about feelings bothering me, the xSTJ response is to do something about it when I'm fully content to wallow for a day.

I guess I feel like I can't be myself one hundred percent, and I suppose that could be a "me" problem more than a "xSTJ" problem.

(Just my experience, and I'm certainly young enough to expect to meet many exceptions to this rule. )

 

[Lily Bart]

I recently had to spend extended periods of time with two SJ's who were acquaintances (not friends) and I tried so hard to make the time pass enjoyably and it just seemed like uphill work. They seemed bored. One was an ISTJ and one was an ISFJ. Mostly I would introduce a topic of conversation, then we'd bat it back and forth a couple of times and then there'd be a silence. Then I'd bring up another topic, then silence and so on and so on. One of the events was my husband's high school reunion and the ISTJ said she was glad I was there because she didn't know anyone else (I didn't either) but she seemed OK sitting around bored rather than trying to make the best of a difficult situation. The other -- ISFJ -- I've known a long time but we've never really clicked. I figured I'd really make an effort to try to appreciate her and make her feel appreciated (and usually I'm pretty good at this sort of thing), but once again, the only feedback I really got was total boredom.

 

[Gerbah]

Mutual acceptance and patience

Also, I find xSTJs are more likely to criticize my views on things--not in a mean way, but in a "why do you think that when it's clearly like this to me" way.

I recently had to spend extended periods of time with two SJ's who were acquaintances (not friends) and I tried so hard to make the time pass enjoyably and it just seemed like uphill work. They seemed bored.

I think the problem for NFs and SJs – especially when they're not aware of where the other is coming from and think their own style is natural and normal – is that the SJ, especially STJ, can be judgmental of other people's logic and thinking and can easily fall into the fault of making the other person feel judged as stupid and also making the NF feel unrecognised, something I think NFs need more than SJs. The NF on the other hand can also be judgmental but of the SJ's feelings and behaviour, making the SJ also feel judged but more emotionally judged, like, the SJ is clueless and dumb or something.

The SJ is sensitive, as sensitive as the NF, and when the SJ picks up on this judgment they will withdraw even more, no matter how much the NF keeps trying to get the response they want from the SJ, also because the SJ, at least the ISTJ, doesn't care what other people think and is generally not a people pleaser.

As an example, I have one current ENFJ friend. She's lovely and we get along well although at the beginning there was friction because she didn't like some beliefs I have and was getting really emotional about it. I was very tempted to cut her off. She's direct though, which is a good thing with an ISTJ, because that made me feel I was safe enough with her to deal with the conflict openly. I was willing to go through the conflict because I could feel she was honest and did truly appreciate me. Apart from that, she did once say to me that I'm sometimes so serious it makes her nervous. So I try to up my energy with her and be more openly affectionate to make her feel comfortable.

The INFJ who isn't my friend any more is a very indirect person. On top of the fact that I felt very judged by her and not accepted just as I am, she was becoming very passive-aggressive.

As for ISFJs, I don't have a lot of experience with them but from what I gather they are similar to ISTJs in that they are also very withdrawn. The one ISFJ I know is very difficult to draw out of her shell, and that's coming from an ISTJ Goodness knows how I've tried to find out more about her and show I come in peace, but she is just not looking for a personal connection with me. Or with most people. She likes very exuberant people who just enjoy themselves with no expectations of any one, who won't judge her and who aren't bothered by the way she is and just have fun anyway. That makes her feel comfortable and she will happily go along with them for the ride.

 

[Habba]

In addition, when I complain about feelings bothering me, the xSTJ response is to do something about it when I'm fully content to wallow for a day.

If someone would tell me they are feeling terrible because of something, I'll do whatever I can to help that person over that.

For an example: If someone says that (s)he's afraid of a presentation (s)he must do tomorrow, I'll try to convincing him/her that it will be easy and that (s)he'll do great. I might even go as far as pointing out the reasons why I believe so.

I understand that someone might view my attitude as: "Oh, aren't you a cry baby! Get over it!". But I'm just genuinely trying to fix what's the cause of problems. Even though some people would rather just have the sympathy, and fix the problem themselves.

 

[wrldisquiethere]

The family member I am closest to is INFP and I have a pretty good friend who is ENFJ. They both frustrate me and inspire me.

The thing that frustrates me is their inability to take things at face value. In my opinion they often assume things about others and when they verbalize these things to me it's hard for me to understand where they come up with it. I want to know tangible reasons they have for assuming these things and it frustrates me to hear them say that it is just a gut feeling that they get or an intuition they experience about someone. Granted, sometimes they are right, but other times they are wrong and it causes a lot of unnecessary hurt for them and the other person involved.

Sometimes they seem to make judgements on other people and I struggle with that. Especially when that judgement is made on an assumption. And sometimes it seems like they dwell on those things and make it their responsibility to point those things out or worry over them, or sometimes to get involved to try to change that behavior in the other person.

I also struggle with their inability to be upfront with me sometimes about what they're feeling. At least this is true with the ISFP...she will show no sign of being upset with me until all of a sudden she bubbles over. I understand keeping it inside for awhile because I tend to do that, too, but it always totally catches me off guard because she didn't show ANY signs at all that it was coming.

Plus I wish with my INFP that she would commit to plans easier. I'm often in the dark about what is going to happen until the last minute and then I have to force myself to adapt and be flexible to her ideas. But this is as much to blame on my SJ'ness as her type. For either of us it requires compromise.

The idealism and unpracticality is hard for me to relate to at times.

However, I have to say that the very things that frustrate me are also things that I admire. They are things that I see as both strength and weaknesses at times, and other times things that I just simply see as differences. However, these things are all ones that I have a very hard time relating to, and often have nothing to say in response because it is just so different from how I am naturally.

 

[d@v3]

Here is a problem I typically have with NF's. Well, I guess it is not a problem, but it is difficult to understand if the NF is trying to hint at a relationship or if the NF is just... being an NF.

http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/904845-post2314.html

To answer your question though, yes, I think NF's and SJ's can work but it takes a lot of time and effort.... and LOTS of patience!

 

[Bubbles]

If someone would tell me they are feeling terrible because of something, I'll do whatever I can to help that person over that.

For an example: If someone says that (s)he's afraid of a presentation (s)he must do tomorrow, I'll try to convincing him/her that it will be easy and that (s)he'll do great. I might even go as far as pointing out the reasons why I believe so.

I understand that someone might view my attitude as: "Oh, aren't you a cry baby! Get over it!". But I'm just genuinely trying to fix what's the cause of problems. Even though some people would rather just have the sympathy, and fix the problem themselves.

Actually, I think that's really sweet. I was referring more to some situations I've had where I'm genuinely miserable about something and I need to just have a good cry, and instead of someone just letting me do it they felt awkward and tried offering a lot of solutions when I wasn't in a rational mindset at all to use them.

Plus I wish with my INFP that she would commit to plans easier. I'm often in the dark about what is going to happen until the last minute and then I have to force myself to adapt and be flexible to her ideas. But this is as much to blame on my SJ'ness as her type. For either of us it requires compromise.

The idealism and unpracticality is hard for me to relate to at times.

Guilty as charged. The fact that SJs usually don't do this is something I both envy and fear--fear because I know that when I don't do it, I'll look stupid. We hate this about ourselves though. I remember I once had the biggest crush on this ENFP boy...he'd promised to hang out with me one weekend (which we actually did a lot) but he forgot he had somewhere else to be at the last second. Several hours after cleaning the downstairs of my house, getting ready, and waiting...and waiting...and waiting, I get a call. "I forgot about something else I said I'd do, sorry!"

Those lousy xNFPs! :steam:

 

[KLessard]

I'm not commenting for the SJs, just adding my four quarters...

Most NFs, even the NJs put priority on Relationship OVER Object Task.
Most SJs, even the SFs put priority on Object Task OVER Relationship.

This is a cannoical order that we follow; when somebody violates that order, we feel distant from that person. I don't care about the laundry as much as I care about going out with my friends...it's really hard to date somebody who cares more about the laundry than socializing, and/or talking about people/community. Object Task serves my Relational Priorities; I'll make a buffet, clean my house from top to bottom, and even make sure my laundry is out of sight, so long as people are coming over.

Totally agree.

 

[Giggly]

This is me doing my best SJ impression:

**Important announcement to the SJ's across the world**

Please just talk to Bubbles in a free-flowing manner and stop trying to learn things about her and solve her problems!

Thank you

 

[KLessard]

Here is a problem I typically have with NF's. Well, I guess it is not a problem, but it is difficult to understand if the NF is trying to hint at a relationship or if the NF is just... being an NF.

http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/904845-post2314.html

To answer your question though, yes, I think NF's and SJ's can work but it takes a lot of time and effort.... and LOTS of patience!

About that cuddling thing... I would never cuddle or hug out of nowhere like that, especially a person of the opposite sex... Your friends are strange NFs, or very extraverted...
I need to be very close to a person to do that (family, close friend or long-time colleague) or I'll hug a new friend before leaving to show that I care and would like the friendship to deepen, but never in the manner you have described. !!!
But then again, I'm INFJ, and we are known to put "the lid on it" (on our emotions).

 

[Giggly]

About that cuddling thing... I would never cuddle or hug out of nowhere like that, especially a person of the opposite sex... Your friends are strange NFs, or very extraverted...
I need to be very close to a person to do that (family, close friend or long-time colleague) or I'll hug a new friend before leaving to show that I care and would like the friendship to deepen, but never in the manner you have described. !!!
But then again, I'm INFJ, and we are known to put "the lid on it" (on our emotions).

Why wouldn't you cuddle, Mr. KLessard?

 

[Bubbles]

This is me doing my best SJ impression:

**Important announcement to the SJ's across the world**

Please just talk to Bubbles in a free-flowing manner and stop trying to learn things about her and solve her problems!

Thank you

I luv yooou.

 

[KLessard]

Why wouldn't you cuddle, Mr. KLessard?

Mr? ... I'm a girl. I said I would with someone I know well only (in the case of cuddling, only with family). What dav3 was describing (if you read his linked post) was quite strange. Perhaps those NFs were drunk... ?

 

[Giggly]

Mr? ... I'm a girl. I said I would with someone I know well only. What dave was describing (if you read his linked post) was quite strange. Perhaps those NFs were drunk... ?

Oh. I'm sorry.