"Control freaks": how do you view your underlings??

[chatoyer]

(this is inspired from the current INTJ thread, "using people to reach goals")

Do you respect them, if they are not dominant-types? What about those who do not easily go with your plans, but are not dominant themselves?
Do you see value in being easygoing in certain circumstances?

As an ENFP, I really have a hard time with being controlled.....or perceiving being controlled.......and I have little desire to dominate my plans over others. I view most of these things as trivial, these concrete things, unless they have a larger, more symbolic meaning (e.g. like a wedding, where there are concrete things that have a deeper meaning or fulfill a vision).

The closest I come to controlling another is a clever, playful sort of manipulation to help someone become "better" , but even with that manipulation, I'm pretty upfront about it, "this is what I'm doing for these reasons, what do you think?" And I'll adapt to their preferences.........

 

[chatoyer]

Ouch! Nobody's gonna bite this one?

(do I need to work on my manipulation skills?? )

The title is supposed to grab your attention, not offend!

 

[substitute]

I was thinking about it, but wasn't sure whether/what I should post before I've had a good think about whether I am a control freak, and if so, in what ways.

But because I'm not a J, it's sorta different than what you're describing in the OP... if I am, that is.

And I'm having a think about what you might mean - and what I might mean - by "underlings". People who are legitimately in an actual formal position subordinate to me? Or just anyone who I try to control?

I don't think I do try to control people much... situations, yeah... which sometimes I guess entails a bit of indirect people control...

Hm, I'm trying to practice thinking harder before I post, see, so I wasn't gonna say anything until I'd thought out how to say it better. But since you're sad and blue cos nobody else replied yet... lol

 

[Recoleta]

Lol...this reminds me of last year when I "classically conditioned" one of my roommates that constantly got on my nerves. I'm not gonna lie, it was a lot of fun for me, and I'd bet she was completely oblivious.

Basically, I had a wonderful roommate situation last year. I was living in a 4 br/4 bath place, and it was only me and one other girl living there who I became good friends with. Unfortunately, the place had individual leases, meaning, since there was only 2 people in a 4 bedroom place the management can basically stick anyone who wants to move in to the complex into our apartment so long as we don't outright refuse. So this other girl shows up, who was unfortuanately in one of my classes. How could you say no to someone you have to sit in class with 3 times a week? Plus, she was in a bad situation, and my roomie and I were too nice, so we let her live with us. This girl and I started class at the same time every day and she did not have a parking space on campus, so she couldn't really drive there herself...unfortunately. So she asked if she could ride with me in the mornings instead of taking the city bus. I stupidly agreed.

I would guess that she is an ESFP maybe? Definitely ESFX, but everything she did drove me nuts. The girl couldn't pull herself out of bed on time, and so would always make me late (a big no no for an ISTJ!). She would sing incessantly in the car to Gwen Stefani (and this was like 8:30a.m.)...and basically, I would want to hurt her.

However, I realized something like a week into this horrible process of being late to class everyday. Whenever I picked up my keys to signal that I was ready to leave she would show up like 6-7 mintues later than I wanted. SO......

I simply started to pick up my keys and intentionally jingle them where I knew she would hear them like 7 minutes before I wanted to leave and then she would show up on time. Plus, to remedy the singing problem, I was a Spanish major and made it a point to only keep Spanish CD's in the car...that way she couldn't understand the lyrics, and therefore could not sing.

 

[chatoyer]

gee, thanks!

I was thinking about it, but wasn't sure whether/what I should post before I've had a good think about whether I am a control freak, and if so, in what ways.

But because I'm not a J, it's sorta different than what you're describing in the OP... if I am, that is.

And I'm having a think about what you might mean - and what I might mean - by "underlings". People who are legitimately in an actual formal position subordinate to me? Or just anyone who I try to control?

I don't think I do try to control people much... situations, yeah... which sometimes I guess entails a bit of indirect people control...

Hm, I'm trying to practice thinking harder before I post, see, so I wasn't gonna say anything until I'd thought out how to say it better. But since you're sad and blue cos nobody else replied yet... lol

Aw,thanks..........I thought it was an interesting question. I've got some real dominant types in my extended family & we've had some conflicts, & that question has flown through my mind: do I frustrate them that I don't put up a fight with the plans or offer an alternate plan? Does it seem weak or flaky to them?

 

[The Ü™]

I think the honor of "control freak" proper would go to the ENTJ.

The INTJ is a low-key control freak -- probably more concerned with controlling their inner world. Hence, they often become creatures of habit, because the outer world isn't easy to control.

 

[substitute]

Aw,thanks..........I thought it was an interesting question. I've got some real dominant types in my extended family & we've had some conflicts, & that question has flown through my mind: do I frustrate them that I don't put up a fight with the plans or offer an alternate plan? Does it seem weak or flaky to them?

Yeah... I see what you mean. But although I'm often told that I'm "dominant" by some people, I think what they're referring to is my assertiveness and outspokenness, rather than controlling tendencies.

What you said that I bolded there, reminds me of a situation I often find myself in: Say it's the lunch hour and everyone wants to go for a drink together. Someone asks where we should go, but although people occasionally suggest somewhere, everyone's response is always "I don't mind, I'm not bothered either way" - incredibly British!! So out of sheer frustration and boredom as I watch the clock ticking away our lunch hour, I'll pick somewhere I know everyone likes and say ffs let's just go there - and nobody objects.

Then, later on, someone will complain that they wanted to go somewhere else. And I'm like - dude, why didn't you say that earlier??

Similarly, you often get with British people: "Do you want sugar in your coffee?" - "I don't mind". WTF? Well, do you or don't you? Shall I put some in or not? Can't you just say yes or no??? And because they refuse to, you just leave it out or put a random amount in, and then watch in exasperation as they leave it untouched as you slurp yours happily.

I wouldn't have a problem with you not putting up a fight or offering a different plan, as long as you genuinely were happy with whatever was chosen by someone else, and aren't going to complain about whatever decision was made if you went along with it.

 

[nightning]

INFJ (uhhhh maybe it's best to call it myself only) is a subtle control freak. There's an ideal that I think will do you some good... so I discretely push you towards it. I ummm "manipulate" for a win win situation. People generally don't notice anything.... I don't try to wrest apparent control either. I just guide the process.

As to using people to reach goals... I afraid I do that as well. It's almost an unconscious process though.

 

[substitute]

Oh hell yeah, I use people to reach goals all the time - but the difference between the way I do it and how you're talking about here, is that I do it openly, and let the person be in no doubt about it - that they're basically scratching my back - and I generally scratch theirs back in return somehow. I use bargains a lot, and always keep to them.

 

[CzeCze]

Do you respect them, if they are not dominant-types? What about those who do not easily go with your plans, but are not dominant themselves?
Do you see value in being easygoing in certain circumstances?

You need people who are "in charge" and even activist - i.e. they just don't assert things, they DO things - types sometimes.

I remember I was facilitating a workshop/presentation and this older woman comes in with a middle aged woman to watch/participate, and she starts criticizing my placement of literature on the table and starts reorganizing it.

I have NEVER had that happen to me nor seen it happen at any conference/workshop. I was taken aback. Frankly, I was annoyed. But also given her age, the fact she wasn't doing any real harm, and the fact I was supposed to be a 'facilitator' at kinda a 'do-gooder' function I just hovered next to what she was doing. In this case I was the easy-going one.

It turns out she is a state assemblywoman or senator?

Good for her!

I'm glad someone like her is 'in my corner' getting all up in people's business and hands on.

Otherwise, I would say as an ENFP you should be pretty good about resisting control and wriggling out of things.

God knows I am.

But wait...you do want to keep your job, right?

 

[Domino]

(this is inspired from the current INTJ thread, "using people to reach goals")

Do you respect them, if they are not dominant-types? What about those who do not easily go with your plans, but are not dominant themselves?
Do you see value in being easygoing in certain circumstances?

As an ENFP, I really have a hard time with being controlled.....or perceiving being controlled.......and I have little desire to dominate my plans over others. I view most of these things as trivial, these concrete things, unless they have a larger, more symbolic meaning (e.g. like a wedding, where there are concrete things that have a deeper meaning or fulfill a vision).

The closest I come to controlling another is a clever, playful sort of manipulation to help someone become "better" , but even with that manipulation, I'm pretty upfront about it, "this is what I'm doing for these reasons, what do you think?" And I'll adapt to their preferences.........

Let me ask something for clarity's sake: Do you mean that you don't like to be "handled" by others? If that's the case, then I fully agree. I hate it when I detect that I'm being herded (or the attempt is being made at least...) or cajoled into something I don't jive with.

I'm not a dominant/dominating type, but I have been told I'm very forceful and tend to stare the bull down when it's lowering its horns at me. Good thing I have my ENFP to jerk me back over the fence when I'm being unreasonable.

And that whole NTJ "I'm going to take over the world" thing is par for the course. Just let them say it. It makes them feel better. Whether one will actually do it is another matter. Things look pretty solid in the SP/SJ authority structure at this time. I see no NTJs rattling the windows as of yet. I point this out with regularity to both my extroverted and introverted NTJs and they admit they haven't achieved World Domination (tm) yet.

 

[chatoyer]

Let me ask something for clarity's sake: Do you mean that you don't like to be "handled" by others? If that's the case, then I fully agree. I hate it when I detect that I'm being herded (or the attempt is being made at least...) or cajoled into something I don't jive with.

Yeah, give me some choices! Not "chatoyer, we're all going to do this, or you need to do this". I'd rather have, "we need help doing X, do you want to do that or y or z? What do you think?"

Flex for me!

With SJs in my life, I try to appeal to their need for convenience or practicality, I ask, "what would help you the most, if I do X or Y?, what do you need?" But I rarely get the same flexing back, I'd love that.

NTJs I have a serious weakness for--esp the ENTJ, the confidence in action, it's a love-hate thing. I adore their creative Te in action, but don't try to control ME!

 

[Domino]

Yeah, give me some choices! Not "chatoyer, we're all going to do this, or you need to do this". I'd rather have, "we need help doing X, do you want to do that or y or z? What do you think?"

Flex for me!

With SJs in my life, I try to appeal to their need for convenience or practicality, I ask, "what would help you the most, if I do X or Y?, what do you need?" But I rarely get the same flexing back, I'd love that.

NTJs I have a serious weakness for--esp the ENTJ, the confidence in action, it's a love-hate thing. I adore their creative Te in action, but don't try to control ME!

This sounds just like my sister. She may be generally affable and compliant about things, but when it comes to crunch time, she's a very tough customer. She really loves NTJs too, and sees them as a great counterpart, but yes, the controlling thing is a bother to her. She's resistant to being TOLD what to do and resents any semblance of imposed control.

 

[Maverick]

Come on... who likes being controlled, really? Nearly no one. It's obvious that control freaks are a pain for everyone and that being a good leader is overcoming any "need" to control. It has to be a control that is wanted by people... A role that is necessary to be assumed by someone.

 

[CzeCze]

Come on... who likes being controlled, really? Nearly no one.

You obviously have not been introduced to the BDSM community...

But, let's not go there, because the conversation of what is 'control' who is 'controlling' and what 'consent' means are a WHOOOOOOLE 'nother forum.

It's obvious that control freaks are a pain for everyone and that being a good leader is overcoming any "need" to control. It has to be a control that is wanted by people... A role that is necessary to be assumed by someone.

Sometimes being a visionary leader and doing the right thing means doing things that are exactly against what the majority or the elite of a society want. So I guess that's splitting hairs about the definition of 'people'.

The best institutional defense against 'control freaks' is to have a more widely enfranchising system where you basically eliminate the need for 'professional politicians' and political machines. I think I'm repeating myself from another post, but basically since everyone is invested in and has a right to influence their community, everyone gets a seat in power. Checks and balances are still in play and everyone gets turns.

I.E. the whole 'power to the people' thing.

Hhahahaha...I just heard myself think. Yes, I know what I an impractical bright eyed idealist I sound like. Thank you.

 

[substitute]

You obviously have not been introduced to the BDSM community...

I was gonna say that, and mention that in some of my shady past I've...

But, let's not go there, because the conversation of what is 'control' who is 'controlling' and what 'consent' means are a WHOOOOOOLE 'nother forum.

Quite.

 

[niffer]

Hey, I can be a control freak too. Just a nicer one. And I'll only control the highest quality of underlings. If they don't hold up to my standards, then I will abandon them.

 

[Maverick]

You obviously have not been introduced to the BDSM community...

But, let's not go there, because the conversation of what is 'control' who is 'controlling' and what 'consent' means are a WHOOOOOOLE 'nother forum.

That's not the same as being controlled by a control freak, it's sex and you choose to stop it at any moment if you don't like it.

 

[CzeCze]

That's not the same as being controlled by a control freak, it's sex and you choose to stop it at any moment if you don't like it.

Hmm...if you say so...

Some control freaks are just micromanagers because they care a lot about the final outcome. Some because they care about the process and 'doing everything exactly right'. And some because they are power-tripping assholes.

Being a control freak is situational as well as. Generally if you are 'easy-going' you have a lot of faith that things turn out in the end and you are NOT process-focused or care too much about following every rule exactly. You also lean to egalitarianism and assume everyone will do their jobs correctly and don't like to feel you are harassing them.

BUT -- next time I move and hire 'professional movers' I will probably ride their asses. Why? I've had too many bad experiences with half-assed, shady movers breaking things, leaving before completing the job, overcharging, etc. that I am WARY, I do NOT trust movers and I am AFRAID of a loss to me in the form of money/furniture.

So fear basically can motivate anyone into being a 'control freak'. And if you have any important task that you REALLY need or want to go perfectly right.

While I find is annoying and stressful to have a control freak direct their energies towards me, unless it's at work, it's very easy to check them or get out of their grips.

When it comes to POWER TRIPPERS -- and you know what I mean, people with huge complexes that either always talk about being big and bad or otherwise obviously have a need to prove something -- I think it's absolutely sad and disgusting especially the clearer it is how they are on bottom rungs.

Then there are people who just don't give damn about others and have no empathy for people they are pushing around -- more on the sociopathic side. With these people I usually just start acting exactly like them to them, I find it pretty efficient.

And again, there's all sorts of lovely combinations of factors in the makings of a "control freak".

BTW, control freaks aren't the only ones who 'boss people around'. In fact, the power dynamic of 'controlling' or 'manipulating' or 'influencing' people is a lot more fluid and multidimensional. Which is what I was pointing at with the BDSM post.