[NT] Question for NT Women - Are you a feminist?

[Qre:us]

That girl I am talking about is generally considered a hardcore lesbian, though she is just a very practical rational ISTJ / INTJ or INTP maybe. She ia having a hard timeabout that, I am just trying to find a solution to the problem, because it is a problem to her.

Tell her to connect with the boyz through stories of the little man in the boat...or, the old man and the sea. Whatever her proclivities.

 

[edel weiss]

I always showed feminist tendencies as a child, and started identifying as one when I was about 17 years old. Now, I've studied Feminist Jurisprudence and plan to specialize in Women and Law.

Women do have equal rights with men in a legal sense, it is true. But that is purely formal equality, and does not address a lot of issues still prevalant today. I do believe that sexism still exists today, in Western society as well. (Living in India, of course, exposes me to a lot more problems that women face)

 

[Economica]

One thing I dislike these days is people making a fuss over gender if someone happens to be in a field that's dominated by the other gender. IMO, it's counterproductive and annoying to highlight it.

While I agree with this, I nevertheless found myself suddenly and unwillingly conscious of my gender as I took the floor for the first time at my new workplace yesterday before an audience of 9 men. I found myself telling myself that it was not my problem if anyone there would be judging the potential of all women on the basis of my performance and that I should hold myself to the standard that is right for me (which is better than some of the men, but not as good as the best of them) without embarrassment. I am actually optimistic that I will be judged fairly - at least so long as I myself do not take my gender into the equation, Sarah Palin-style :rolli: - but I guess time will tell.

 

[nonsequitur]

Yes, I am a feminist but it wasn't a conscious decision. Do I believe in self-determination by women? Do I believe in equality and choice? Yes. Do I label myself a "feminist"? Not really. Most of the time, people believe that I am "a feminist" because of the way that I dress and my outspoken personality (i.e. I am not afraid to make people angry with my views).

Last week this guy from Israel came into our research institute and refused to shake hands with any women because they were women. Some people were like "omg, misogynist" and got all angry. I shrugged and said, "I wouldn't shake hands with him anyway, he's a Jew". *smirks*

So yes, I am feminist by virtue of my beliefs, but not bra-burningly so.

 

[bluebell]

While I agree with this, I nevertheless found myself suddenly and unwillingly conscious of my gender as I took the floor for the first time at my new workplace yesterday before an audience of 9 men. I found myself telling myself that it was not my problem if anyone there would be judging the potential of all women on the basis of my performance and that I should hold myself to the standard that is right for me (which is better than some of the men, but not as good as the best of them) without embarrassment. I am actually optimistic that I will be judged fairly - at least so long as I myself do not take my gender into the equation, Sarah Palin-style :rolli: - but I guess time will tell.

My workplace is about 50:50 in terms of gender balance. However, I'm usually the only female at the meetings I go to and usually one of several females at conferences. I think the trick is to just ignore it all and do your job. I've never had trouble being given respect.

I've had the occasional patronising colleague. I tend to just freeze them out and refuse to play their game.

 

[edel weiss]

Last week this guy from Israel came into our research institute and refused to shake hands with any women because they were women. Some people were like "omg, misogynist" and got all angry. I shrugged and said, "I wouldn't shake hands with him anyway, he's a Jew". *smirks*

So yes, I am feminist by virtue of my beliefs, but not bra-burningly so.

It's cultural. Some cultures believe that men should not have physical contact with any woman who is not their close relative/wife. Admittedly, they do tend to be misogynistic, but it has nothing to do with that man in particular - In his view, he was being respectful to the women present there.

You can be a feminist and not be a bra-burner... In fact, bras can be very practical items, and would thus be feminist.

 

[Ivy]

It's always dismaying to me to see women say things like "Of course I believe [X/Y/Z basic feminist ideas] but I don't consider myself a feminist." It seems as if a big-time hoodwinking has gone on to convince people that feminist = hairy, ugly, man-hating, repressed, humorless, frigid, etc. etc.

 

[groovejet02]

You said it, Ivy. I find people who fall for the stereotypes of feminism (man-hating, bra-burning, etc) to be severely uniformed and too damn lazy to do research. Not to mention of course, selfishly entitled to the rights that women before them have struggled to gain.

 

[Habba]

Now, I've studied Feminist Jurisprudence and plan to specialize in Women and Law.

Women do have equal rights with men in a legal sense, it is true.

Now how does it progress equality in legal sense, if women have their own law studies?

I have always seen feminism to be counter-productive method of striding towards equality. Come on, how does it bring equality if you only just try to equalize the other side? It's like world's super powers chasing world peace by means of arms race.

Then again, I live in Finland, which is a pioneer in the field of gender equality. My views may not apply to your world.

 

[simulatedworld]

There are a lot of negative connotations associated with that word so you may find that NT women, usually outspoken, independent and indifferent to popular opinion are more willing to accept the label than other types. But really, are there any educated women who believe that equal rights for women are not desirable? That might be a more interesting question.

Indeed; I would ask, who among us is not a feminist? All it means is advocate of equal legal rights for women. That's like asking who's an abolitionist.

Unfortunately, there does exist out there in the big cruel world a group that takes a universally positive message ("gender equality is cool!") and twists it into hate speech ("female supremacy ftw!").

For examples, see the wildly overrated Cunt by Inga Muscio. Examples of egregious anti-male bigotry abound, but it's all wrapped up in conveniently placating pro-woman empowerment language, so stupid shitheads with no realistic conceptions of sex or gender worldwide lap it up like sour milk served to a starving cat.

"White middle-class girls at the elite colleges and universities seem to want the world handed to them on a platter. They have been sheltered, coddled, and flattered. Having taught at a wide variety of institutions over my ill-starred career, I have observed that working-class or lower-middle-class girls, who are from financially struggling families and who must take a patchwork of menial off-campus jobs to stay in school, are usually the least hospitable to feminist rhetoric. They see life as it is and have fewer illusions about sex. It is affluent, upper-middle class students who most spout the party line - as if the grisly hyperemotionalism of feminist jargon satisfies their hunger for meaningful experience outside their eventless upbringing. In the absence of war, invent one."
--Camille Paglia

 

[nonsequitur]

It's cultural. Some cultures believe that men should not have physical contact with any woman who is not their close relative/wife. Admittedly, they do tend to be misogynistic, but it has nothing to do with that man in particular - In his view, he was being respectful to the women present there.

You can be a feminist and not be a bra-burner... In fact, bras can be very practical items, and would thus be feminist.

He was visiting Australia in a professional context. He also did not speak directly to the woman whom he was introduced to - he spoke to the guy (my supervisor) who was introducing them. That spoke to me of lack-of-respect and lack of professionalism.

Yeah, it's just a stereotype thing. It annoys me when people think of feminists as extremist lesbian vegans.

It's always dismaying to me to see women say things like "Of course I believe [X/Y/Z basic feminist ideas] but I don't consider myself a feminist." It seems as if a big-time hoodwinking has gone on to convince people that feminist = hairy, ugly, man-hating, repressed, humorless, frigid, etc. etc.

I don't label myself a "feminist" not because of the stereotype, but because it's never occurred to me to label myself and my political beliefs (e.g. I don't accept the label of "social liberal" even though my beliefs fall generally in that line). I believe the general principles, but that doesn't mean that I accept its implementation in every way.

For e.g., I fully believe in gender equality in my field (academic biological sciences), where >60% of postgrad students are female, but <10% of tenured University positions are held by females. But I would not support instituting a quota system to address this inequality. I believe that a cultural revolution is necessary, because a quota system would result in lack of academic respect for the females who do make it. After all, isn't respect what women are fighting for? This is shooting ourselves in the foot.

Does that make me anti-feminist? As you can see, the label currently means absolutely nothing in the larger context of complex social interaction.

 

[bluebell]

kyuuei started a thread on positive discrimination earlier today.

My POV is very similar to yours, nonsequitur.

 

[Habba]

I believe that a cultural revolution is necessary, because a quota system would result in lack of academic respect for the females who do make it. After all, isn't respect what women are fighting for? This is shooting ourselves in the foot.

Yes, quota system is most retarded thing ever. "We want him for being proficient and we want her to fill the quota."

People should just stop speaking about gender as if it's of importance. I always hated it when people make differences in types based on gender. "XXXX female that, while males this".

Oh, and how I do hate those gender stereotype jokes. Not only are they unfunny, but they are also incredibly classifying. "All males are dumb brutes who can only mate or kill" and "All females are only interested in their looks and are incapable of logical".

[/rant]

 

[groovejet02]

"White middle-class girls at the elite colleges and universities seem to want the world handed to them on a platter. They have been sheltered, coddled, and flattered. Having taught at a wide variety of institutions over my ill-starred career, I have observed that working-class or lower-middle-class girls, who are from financially struggling families and who must take a patchwork of menial off-campus jobs to stay in school, are usually the least hospitable to feminist rhetoric. They see life as it is and have fewer illusions about sex. It is affluent, upper-middle class students who most spout the party line - as if the grisly hyperemotionalism of feminist jargon satisfies their hunger for meaningful experience outside their eventless upbringing. In the absence of war, invent one."
--Camille Paglia

Camille Paglia has obviously never been in touch with feminist groups in third-world* countries or even feminist groups of women in color in her country. Like someone said (can't remember whom), there is no one women's movement -- there are several. That said, there seems to be a lot elitism in the mainstream feminist movement. It seems white women who demand for gender equality seems unwilling to examine their class and race prejudice, thus continuing the oppressor/oppressed dynamic. On an international scale, this condescension is displayed when feminist rhetoric is used by the neo-conservative agenda of attacking countries such as Iraq and Afghanistan in the argument that Muslim women need to be saved.

But even then, I find Camile Paglia's statement to be highly condescending in itself. White women may be cushioned by race and class privilege, but they certainly haven't completely escaped gender discrimination, however one argues that women have achieved a lot. Sexism is still alive and well.

(By the way, for some reason I haven't properly researched, Camille Paglia is often labeled a 'woman-hating feminist', and tend to be popular among those who criticize feminism).

*I hate this term but used it as a matter of convenience.

 

[edel weiss]

Now how does it progress equality in legal sense, if women have their own law studies?

I have always seen feminism to be counter-productive method of striding towards equality. Come on, how does it bring equality if you only just try to equalize the other side? It's like world's super powers chasing world peace by means of arms race.

Then again, I live in Finland, which is a pioneer in the field of gender equality. My views may not apply to your world.

I see what you mean. Looking at it outside the cultural context (as in, problems which still affect women universally), we still need special laws for women regarding -

Rape, sexual harrassment - It's a fact that women are almost always affected, and the perpetrators are almost always men. Exceptions are rare.

Domestic violence - As far as I've read, it cuts across most cultures. And women are disproportionally affected

Abortion, laws regarding reproductive health.

And perhaps, women have their own law studies because the laws, by far and large, have been made by men.

It's always dismaying to me to see women say things like "Of course I believe [X/Y/Z basic feminist ideas] but I don't consider myself a feminist." It seems as if a big-time hoodwinking has gone on to convince people that feminist = hairy, ugly, man-hating, repressed, humorless, frigid, etc. etc.

I agree. I've had far too many friends shake their heads at me and say, well, they do believe in equality, but no, they won't take it that far...

He was visiting Australia in a professional context. He also did not speak directly to the woman whom he was introduced to - he spoke to the guy (my supervisor) who was introducing them. That spoke to me of lack-of-respect and lack of professionalism.

That definitely sucks. But then again, that's the way they've often been brought up. Imagine living in an environment where your father always tells your mother what to do, where the men of the family eat first, and your sisters do all the domestic work while the brothers are encouraged to study and have fun.

But I would not support instituting a quota system to address this inequality. I believe that a cultural revolution is necessary, because a quota system would result in lack of academic respect for the females who do make it. After all, isn't respect what women are fighting for? This is shooting ourselves in the foot.

Does that make me anti-feminist? As you can see, the label currently means absolutely nothing in the larger context of complex social interaction

I guess that opinions regarding quota systems would vary with reference to the general environment. In some cases, they could be useful.

 

[groovejet02]

That definitely sucks. But then again, that's the way they've often been brought up. Imagine living in an environment where your father always tells your mother what to do, where the men of the family eat first, and your sisters do all the domestic work while the brothers are encouraged to study and have fun.

Is this your personal experience? Just curious. As for mine, my mom always tells my dad what to do. Ha

 

[simulatedworld]

White women may be cushioned by race and class privilege, but they certainly haven't completely escaped gender discrimination, however one argues that women have achieved a lot. Sexism is still alive and well.

I don't think she intended to argue that middle class white women never suffer at the hands of sexism. Read it again--she simply implied that, since most of them have never encountered any genuine hardship, they attach themselves with exaggerated fervor to the "grisly hyper-emotionalism" (great wording) of feminist jargon because they feel they should be doing something to make some kind of a positive difference. Paglia's point is simply a comment on these women's lack of perspective, not any kind of claim that sexism has been eradicated.

Indeed, if you read her work, she is very open with many ideas about fundamental biological differences. She is a feminist in that she supports equal rights for women, but is smarter than the anti-male subgenre of feminism because she understands that biology, in certain life situations, precludes absolute equality.

 

[BerberElla]

It's always dismaying to me to see women say things like "Of course I believe [X/Y/Z basic feminist ideas] but I don't consider myself a feminist." It seems as if a big-time hoodwinking has gone on to convince people that feminist = hairy, ugly, man-hating, repressed, humorless, frigid, etc. etc.

Totally. I consider myself to be a feminist (non NT) and inspite of years of being given grief by men and some women over it, I don't see why I should be ashamed of it.

Feminism isn't about man hating, it's about helping women, and all you have to do is look around the globe to see how much it is still needed in places.

People from the west look at the west, where women have won so many rights and think their job is done and feminism is now redundant, or only the province of man hating lesbians, but they need to open their eyes wider.

 

[nonsequitur]

That definitely sucks. But then again, that's the way they've often been brought up. Imagine living in an environment where your father always tells your mother what to do, where the men of the family eat first, and your sisters do all the domestic work while the brothers are encouraged to study and have fun.

I'm not going to extrapolate his jerkish behavior to something that may or may not have happened in his life. He was in Australia, a foreign country. He was there on a professional purpose. He should've adjusted, or at least made an effort.

I guess that opinions regarding quota systems would vary with reference to the general environment. In some cases, they could be useful.

Perhaps in some instances. In most instances, I think they do more harm than good in the long run.

 

[Habba]

Last week this guy from Israel came into our research institute and refused to shake hands with any women because they were women. Some people were like "omg, misogynist" and got all angry. I shrugged and said, "I wouldn't shake hands with him anyway, he's a Jew". *smirks*

I'm not going to extrapolate his jerkish behavior to something that may or may not have happened in his life. He was in Australia, a foreign country. He was there on a professional purpose. He should've adjusted, or at least made an effort.

So racism is okay, but having a differing view of how to act respectfully towards women is not?

I feel very awkward hugging men. Am I being disrespectful towards men, for not hugging them as I would like to hug a female?