Writing Stories

[ygolo]

Whether it is going to be set of short stories, a (screen) play, or a novel, I don't know. But I've decided I am going to begin story writing for therapeutic reasons.

Still, I like all my work to be reasonable good, and it has been 11 years since I had a creative writing class, and I know we have a lot of writers on the forum.

So I have a bunch of questions:

Regarding Theme
Without something to say, there isn't much point in saying it. But, as a consumer of fiction I have always been put-off by very "preachy" stories. (Devil's Advocate, the Matrix sequels, etc).

How do you go about selecting a theme?
How does it effect your story goal?
How do you weave it in without clubbing your audience with it?

Regarding Story Goals

What exactly is a story goal? I kind of think of it as what the main characters try to accomplish through out the story--the thing tgat when accomplished finishes the story.

How do you select a story goal?
How do you relate it to you theme?
How does it drive your plot?

Regarding Plot
How do you weave an interesting story?
How do you avoid "plot devices" and make the events natural to the characters and setting?

Regarding Characters
How do you make interesting hcaracters that "live?"
Can you use Myers-Briggs, or Enneagram, or other psychology?
How do you chose how they think, feel, talk, dress, move, etc.?

Regarding Setting
How do you bring a place alive?
How do you make it a place natural for the characters to meet, and for the plot to happen?

Regarding Style
What style make a good read?

I persoally prefer heavy on dialogue and events, and decription to be weaved in instead having long sections of it.

Opinions on what styles are good to read?

 

[ygolo]

Really? Nobody wants to answer?

I was certain, we had at least a few story writers on the board.

 

[Athenian200]

The problem here is that there's no right answer to your questions. Different writers/readers have different preferences, and different abilities. We'd probably have to see some of your writing in order to try and help you with this at all, and even then, there are no guarantees.

The only way to choose most of the things you described above is to just go with your hunches. The fact that you delineated all those categories means you already sort of know what you're doing on a technical level. The problem is that the secret of writing (except technical writing) is passion. Even as an INFJ, I apparently don't have enough passion to be a good writer. I'm too "clinical" according to the writers I know (even though they think I'm sensitive in other ways). INFPs and INTJs usually manage to pull it off, though. Ti, mathematics, and circuit design might have ruined you for every kind of writing except technical writing, in other words (although I can't be sure of that).

Also, there are many forums on the internet that have writers on them. You'd probably get more appropriate help from them than from a ragtag board of people who don't know anything about it. Think about it... you'd go to a technical forum if you wanted to figure out something about working with a computer, right?

 

[ygolo]

yeah. You're right about the forum not being necessarily this best place to find ideas regarding writing.

I hope you are wrong about Ti and writing however. I think Aurhtur Miller was a Ti Dom, as well as Mark Twain (both ISTPs though, I think). I think Hemingway was an ESTP.

Sratre was a scientist, and Scott Adams an engineer, so a wide range of writers with technical backgrounds too.

I posted to the site you mentioned (typos and all).

Introduction and Questions - Absolute Write Water Cooler

 

[Accept]

The problem here is that there's no right answer to your questions. Different writers/readers have different preferences, and different abilities. We'd probably have to see some of your writing in order to try and help you with this at all, and even then, there are no guarantees.

That was half the reason I didn't respond to this earlier. The other reason had to do with the number of questions, which are covered in John Gardner's "On Becoming a Novelist." As he sometimes admits, there are no rules that must be followed in writing good fiction, but the writer should know which rule is being broken, and why (he sometimes ignored his own guidelines in his novels.)

As Gardner and other writers seem to agree, theme and style are two of the things a beginning writer shouldn't worry about in the beginning. Theme can be difficult to establish, and many stories never seem to get around to establishing an overall theme. Style can be borrowed from others, but it is another variable based on what the reader enjoys (people always tell me Dickens was a master writer, but I've always disliked his style.) So you write for your own enjoyment, and perhaps ask for advice when you're in doubt.

For plot and character it seems you really need to consider who the potential reader will be, remembering that if you have no interest in the protagonist, it's unlikely anyone else will.

It's often said you should write what you know, and some take that to be a limiting factor on what they can write. Maybe it should be to write what you can envision (otherwise there would be no science fiction.)

I do know you can use MBTI types, although allowing your characters to guide you, it's likely they will take on a type. Gardner didn't believe in astrology, but suggested that it could be used as a rough guide to the personality of a character; an interesting study of those subtler aspects of what motivates. I believe the risk in using MBTI would be in stereotyping your characters into type, where you no longer allow them the opportunity to break free of the restrictions it places on them.

I think your characters will take over the thinking and feeling. If they don't, you may not be paying attention to their needs. How they talk, dress, move and all the outer displays of personality, you should probably look to everyday people for ideas, considering whether their professions require a certain type of clothing, how it might effect their free time choices (a suit and tie worker might choose jeans and t-shirts away from work, but the casual dress worker rarely chooses to go home to change into a suit and tie.)

Your characters can meet anywhere, although if one is sitting at home, you will need a reason for a stranger to come to the door. Anything works, as long as it stays in the plausible fiction you're creating. Once you take us from the reality we know, you do have to stay with the reality you establish, otherwise we have to backtrack to find out if we misunderstood the earlier references.

Plot devices aren't all bad, but it's always enjoyable to find a writer who can find interesting alternatives in dealing with them. Where they can be forgiven is when they are common experiences that are part of living (birth, death, courtship, marriage, etc.) It's definitely something romance scriptwriters are always finding new ways to refresh the commonplace.

I've heard that one thing we, as readers, do have a right to expect, is that the protagonist learns or discovers something by the end of the story. It will likely change them, but if not, we should understand why. Jane Austen wrote really long stories of courtship, but seemed to lose interest in her characters once they realized, and accepted the truth (usually long after the reader knew.)

Another thing Gardner warned about, and I've seen in the works of young, or beginning writers, is the assumption the writer knows something no one else knows. Strangely it can still work in the youth market, but generally it's better to assume your reader has at least a passing awareness of your insights (which helps avoid the urge to preach to them.) Only if you can put a fresh perspective, or an interesting twist on an idea is it worth pursuing in your fiction.

But, as you are writing for yourself (a great start), and we have no sample of what, or how you write, it's probably best to go with the rule that there are no rules. Which means I've just found a third reason not to respond to this thread, but since it's already done, submit reply seems painless enough.

 

[Haphazard]

Umm, one question is why are you writing for therapeutic reasons? Writing is one of the least therapeutic things you can do... If you want something therapeutic, you might be better off biking or playing videogames or crocheting.

Anyway, regarding your questions:

In most cases your theme will find you, not the other way around. If you start with a theme in mind, you might do well, or you might make something contrived and heavy-handed. Usually the latter, but you know, no rules and whatever.

The thing about characters and setting and plot is that they can be hard to separate from each other. Here's some writing on the topic (though the writer mainly talks about fantasy, it should probably be helpful). In fact, I almost would recommend not separating them entirely from each other. I know all it's ever gotten me are orphaned characters without a place, but hey, you might be different.

Like, how you choose how your characters are will depend on your setting, and what your setting is will depend on your plot, and how your plot flows will depend on your characters. They've all got to work together. It sounds kind of daunting to put it that way, but then again, you P types are good at holistic thinking and stuff.

Style is style is style is style. The only thing I can recommend to you is to write enough to find a voice, and then it just kind of comes. Whether it's a good read or not depends on your readers, though.

About enneagram and MBTI and personality stuff -- if you want, fine, but I wouldn't type a character until they're at least fleshed out a bit, as in don't start from a personality type. Otherwise, you might find the archetype difficult to alter. I usually end up putting some kind of type on a character, but it takes a while. Last thing I wrote had an INTJ, ISTP, ESFJ, ESFP, ESTP, ENTP, and ISFJ. What I'm currently working on has a 6w7, a 7w8, and a 1w2. This is working, but the character decides the type, not the other way around. It's a helluva lot more difficult to say you're going to create an 'ISFJ' or whatever. Like real people, the characters should transcend type.

For another resource for inspiration, I recommend TVTropes. It's pretty much any and every setting, characterization, and plot device you've ever heard of, and a lot you haven't. Again, same with the personality types, it can be difficult to say "I want to write a story with a Battle Butler" (you'll see when you see the site), but it's an interesting website, nonetheless.

 

[ygolo]

thanks for the opnoins, advice, and resources guys.

As for therepeutic value, it is mean to get me in touch with a rich set of feelings within myself. Right now, I am sort of "stuck" on a handful of them.

 

[Mort Belfry]

Regarding Plot
How do you weave an interesting story?

There's no answer to that question. Plot is difficult, it usually requires the most thinking. I've written so many chapter ones that never go on because in essence the story had no plot.

But sometimes it's just a matter of going from situation to situation, don't plan absolutely everything, leave a little bit of mystery for yourself, it'll make you want to actually sit down and write it more often.

How do you avoid "plot devices" and make the events natural to the characters and setting?

It depends on the genre. Science fiction comedy is of course the most forgiving for plot devices. Think of Arthur Dent and Ford Prefect falling out the Vogon spaceship and how improbable it was for them to get saved.

So how do they get saved? By a spaceship with an infinite improbability dirve, of course!

Regarding Characters
Regarding Setting

For both of these it's best to write what you know. It's hard in theory to write about the sun drenched shores of Ibizia if you've never been there. It's also immense fun to make your own alter ego into a character. Make them attached to your personailty but let them behave in a way that you wish you could. It's liberating to write and read.

Regarding Style
What style make a good read?

I persoally prefer heavy on dialogue and events, and decription to be weaved in instead having long sections of it.

People loooooooooove dialogue, when they're reading massive chunks of summary and they see dialogue coming up, it's hard for their eye not to wander over.

 

[kyuuei]

I write!!!

.. To be more precise, I've been working on a script for quite some time. A rough draft, if you will. I want to create a comic book.. but I suppose the best way to do that for me is to write a novel first and then create pictures for it later. It's a slow process, as I too do it for therapeutic reasons and my time is short. I keep it that way.

The story was based off of a long story line we had started and never completed of improptu roleplay games online.. we, as a community, made it up. I'm basing it heavily off of the characters world and influence of that.

 

[Haphazard]

It's also immense fun to make your own alter ego into a character. Make them attached to your personailty but let them behave in a way that you wish you could. It's liberating to write and read.

Be careful with this if you're going to let anybody else read it, though. It's very easy to stray into the territory where the reader feels like they've just walked in on the writer masturbating.

 

[ygolo]

Throughlines, beats-scenes-sequences-acts, supblots, etc.

So I've been reading up on through lines, and although I know many different accounts of what makes up a through lines, I am not really sure what is is.

Sometime the talk about 2 through lines, sometimes 4. The superset (all 4) are:

1) "Big Picture" through line
2) The main charachter through line
3) The "impact character" through line
4) The throughline of the relationship between the main and impact characters

Any thoughts on through-lines? Can you site any examples?

Robert McKee builds his stories supposedly by linking beats to make scenes, scenes to make sequeances, sequences to make acts, and acts to make a story.

Any thoughts or familiarity with this beat-scence-sequence-act-story construction? It apeals to me, but I know nothing about it.

Linda Serger suggests composing your story of A stories, B stories, and sub-plots in making a screen play?

Any thoughts on the use of sub-plots?

cross-posted here:
Absolute Write Water Cooler - View Single Post - Introduction and Questions

 

[Kyrielle]

Any thoughts on the use of sub-plots?

First, I think you're overthinking this. Just grab a pen and write something, and write it for yourself. Especially if you intend for your stories to be therapeutic. I've known people who wait until a character shows up in their heads and starts doing something and use that as a starting point. I tend to start with a concept and spring off from there once the characters have started to form.

As for that question, sub-plots need to be smaller than the plot, and they need to be resolved by the end of the story. They need to not take over the main plot, and often are as insignificant as a character having a cold and getting better by the end of the story or their neighbour asking for help doing something that has nothing to do with the main plot. They are just like your side-quests in games like Zelda and Final Fantasy, and the point of them is to give a story extra dimension as needed (though they are not at all neccessary and shouldn't be overused).

 

[Accept]

First, I think you're overthinking this.

I've encountered 2 other writers who do this. An ENTJ and an INTJ, but the E finally started to put words on paper (computer) and although he ended up switching to non-fiction, he intends to return to the fiction. The INTJ remains overly concerned with details that probably won't matter once the story begins, but it seems unlikely it ever will.

Any thoughts on through-lines? Can you site any examples?

Any thoughts or familiarity with this beat-scence-sequence-act-story construction? It apeals to me, but I know nothing about it.

Linda Serger suggests composing your story of A stories, B stories, and sub-plots in making a screen play?

Any thoughts on the use of sub-plots?

No idea what through-lines are, but I suspect they might be another set of rules creative writing teachers can use to round out the course. It could also be the result of a successful writer answering the typical question that is difficult to answer: what's the secret of your writing?
Many authors will admit they sometimes feel they're getting away with something, but sometimes they create catch phrases to explain their secret (Jack Nicholson's character explaining how he writes about women is a good example.)

Returning to John Gardner, in one of his instructional books (he wrote two), he explains the beat-scence-sequence (if I understand your meaning), even demonstrating some of his work and how it was constructed. Trouble is, he was a serious novelist, and while their books are often kept alive in a classroom setting, their appeal is usually limited.

As for Linda Serger, who I assume must be Linda Seger, I won't question her talents, but have checked to see that she has a few movie credits, but nothing to suggest producers are seeking her out to help. I haven't read her books, but would think a halfway decent script adviser would be in demand.
As your characters come to life (for you) it is likely any necessary sub-plots will develop from their actions and needs. If they don't, then they aren't important to the overall tale, and if they do, you should consider whether they will be too distracting, or if it's possible the developing sub-plot should actually be the main one (it happens.) As Gardner wrote about, many writers end their stories at the very point they should be starting it.

The only question I ask myself when writing is would I want to be, or at least know the protagonist, and to share in the events of that person's life. At some level the characters take over the story so that I become the passive observer trying to report the key points of their lives. When I get it wrong, or force them to act, it usually requires going back to find the moment of the mistake, deleting everything after that point. So why not begin a story, and see if your characters take over for you - for some writers it works, for others it doesn't.

There's no right or wrong way to write fiction, and any flaws can be fixed later. Maybe try a short story to get the feel for the energy necessary to write a good one while gaining experience in the longer stories where character development becomes crucial? At least then we have something other than rules to critique.

 

[ygolo]

Sub-plots, are what I expected.

First, I think you're overthinking this. Just grab a pen and write something, and write it for yourself. Especially if you intend for your stories to be therapeutic. I've known people who wait until a character shows up in their heads and starts doing something and use that as a starting point. I tend to start with a concept and spring off from there once the characters have started to form

I need to nip this assumption in the bud.

I already AM writing.

I think writers block is only something that Js experience?...at least i could never think that I could find myself in a position where I couldn't crank out a story. I can lucid dream on command, and write that down. The quality of the story, is a different matter.

Just because someone is anlalyzing, doesn't mean he isn't doing. If you want a couple of samples where I just wrote down dreams, there is one in my blog, and one in my personal thread.

An unexamined life is not worth living. I am always looking to improve what I do. Therapeutic reasons were to experience a richer array of feelings, and trying to challenge myself to write something an audience wants to read is part of that experience.

No idea what through-lines are, but I suspect they might be another set of rules creative writing teachers can use to round out the course. It could also be the result of a successful writer answering the typical question that is difficult to answer: what's the secret of your writing?
Many authors will admit they sometimes feel they're getting away with something, but sometimes they create catch phrases to explain their secret (Jack Nicholson's character explaining how he writes about women is a good example.)

Returning to John Gardner, in one of his instructional books (he wrote two), he explains the beat-scence-sequence (if I understand your meaning), even demonstrating some of his work and how it was constructed. Trouble is, he was a serious novelist, and while their books are often kept alive in a classroom setting, their appeal is usually limited.

As for Linda Serger, who I assume must be Linda Seger, I won't question her talents, but have checked to see that she has a few movie credits, but nothing to suggest producers are seeking her out to help. I haven't read her books, but would think a halfway decent script adviser would be in demand.
As your characters come to life (for you) it is likely any necessary sub-plots will develop from their actions and needs. If they don't, then they aren't important to the overall tale, and if they do, you should consider whether they will be too distracting, or if it's possible the developing sub-plot should actually be the main one (it happens.) As Gardner wrote about, many writers end their stories at the very point they should be starting it.

The only question I ask myself when writing is would I want to be, or at least know the protagonist, and to share in the events of that person's life. At some level the characters take over the story so that I become the passive observer trying to report the key points of their lives. When I get it wrong, or force them to act, it usually requires going back to find the moment of the mistake, deleting everything after that point. So why not begin a story, and see if your characters take over for you - for some writers it works, for others it doesn't.

There's no right or wrong way to write fiction, and any flaws can be fixed later. Maybe try a short story to get the feel for the energy necessary to write a good one while gaining experience in the longer stories where character development becomes crucial? At least then we have something other than rules to critique.

I may look up Gardener to see what he is known for and what he recommends, since you've referenced him twice.

I am fascinated by the idea of through lines.

 

[Haphazard]

Hmm. I guess I have 2 lines of thought when I write.

1) Big picture thoughtline
2) Small picture thoughtline (actual prose, character tics, actual dialogue)

I've always done this even before I learned about MBTI, but I guess they can roughly be divided into N (#1) and S (#2). #1 is pretty easy to make coherent but #2 is much more difficult... but it's also where all the unpredictable developments and all of the fun revelations happen. It's also where I usually get stuck. #1 is easy, #2 is intensive. #1 usually has to bend to the will of #2, even though #1 is the guide.

I don't usually plan much. What happens is I start with a tiny bit of #2, I find my #1, and then I have to continue on with #2 until the story is finished. The problem is though that they've both got to work to keep me writing -- if I like something conceptually but I can't get the prose to work, I'll have to quit (I've done this a lot) and the same happens if I like the prose but I don't like the concept (this hasn't happened as much, but it has happened).

Pretty much, if your mind works this way, keep track of #1, but also pay very close attention to #2. That's where opportunity rears its ugly head and you've got to grab it for your subplots and character development.

Though, this probably has nothing to do with what you're taking about.

I don't know what you're talking about Js the only ones getting writer's block. I've never had it.

 

[ygolo]

I think I get what through-lines are now.

Have any of you used Dramatica? Apparently a lot of what I was getting is generated from the theory behind that software.

I don't know what you're talking about Js the only ones getting writer's block. I've never had it.

That's why I stated is a question.

I think people who journal or blog a lot would not have any issues with 1st drafts of any form of writing.

The quality of content, and revising, is an entirely different matter.

In the words of Chris Alexander (or someone), "Start somewhere, anywhere, and you have started."

I happen to start with exploring theory.

 

[iwakar]

Umm, one question is why are you writing for therapeutic reasons? Writing is one of the least therapeutic things you can do... If you want something therapeutic, you might be better off biking or playing videogames or crocheting.

Maybe for you.

Psychiatric assistance would be considered therapeutic to many, but not for me. Even so, I would not discourage others from trying it.

 

[nightning]

thanks for the opnoins, advice, and resources guys.

As for therepeutic value, it is mean to get me in touch with a rich set of feelings within myself. Right now, I am sort of "stuck" on a handful of them.

If it's for therapeutic value... then the audience should naturally be yourself. Write something that you'll enjoy going back and re-reading.

I'm not a story writer... I do have random scenes stuck in my mind while daydreaming... I have to agree with Hap that the story writes itself. It might be easiest to imagine yourself as the character, put yourself into that situation and write what you would do. A good way of self-introspecting.

 

[ygolo]

If it's for therapeutic value... then the audience should naturally be yourself. Write something that you'll enjoy going back and re-reading.

IDK. That is not much of a challenge. I'd enjoy reading whatever I wrote for the nostalgia of it. Without challenge, there is no real therapy or growth, happening. Threapy does not mean comfortable--it is often the opposite.

The core therapeutic issue for me is social in nature. Writing stories for audiences is part of my self-socialization (as is organizing meet-ups, and going to dance lessons, volunteer work, and perhaps toastmasters or something along those lines).

I'm already decent and written communication of facts and theories, and even conscious emotion. The problem is, I have a hard time with bringing up emotions to the consciousness, and expressing "half-formed" concious ideas.

Stories are powerful reflections of the sub-concious, and communicating with an audience checks how "objectively" I have presented the content.

I'm not a story writer... I do have random scenes stuck in my mind while daydreaming... I have to agree with Hap that the story writes itself. It might be easiest to imagine yourself as the character, put yourself into that situation and write what you would do. A good way of self-introspecting.

Perhaps I am still too left brained to see this, but I don't believe it just self-introspection. I think when done well, stories tap into something transcendent.

I don't expect this process to be easy or comfortable. I suspect it will be torturous at times, but it ought to still be therapeutic.

 

[LostInNerSpace]

Not much of a writer myself. But I've been thinking about this one for some unknown reason.

Create plans. I'm not talking about plots. An example of a plan might be a time line of a scene. Somewhere along the time line you want to pick one or more target experiences, and you want to guide the reader towards these experiences. You can do it by manipulating peoples expectations. Be very descriptive of the environment. Use lengths, heights, colors, shapes, lighting and lots of emotion. The emotion does not have to be explicit. Colors, smell, body language, sex all have emotion attached. She came open handed--meaning she was being forthright. Spatial orientation also has a lot of psychological impact on people. And example might be, "he stood over some person". Above or to the right is a position of dominance. Standing to Below is a submissive position.