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Random Politics Thread

Totenkindly

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That dude at least needs to update his knowledge of TV shows. "Think about the mediocrity of celebrating The Facts of Life and Different Strokes!" is next?

I think I'll at least love watching them turn on each other.
Trump isn't even president yet (that's still 3-4 weeks out), although Biden has kind of vanished into the void.
 

The Cat

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That dude at least needs to update his knowledge of TV shows. "Think about the mediocrity of celebrating The Facts of Life and Different Strokes!" is next?

I think I'll at least love watching them turn on each other.
Trump isn't even president yet (that's still 3-4 weeks out), although Biden has kind of vanished into the void.
Those two chuckle heads definitely on more than one non consecutive times have tried to make a weird science happen.
 

ceecee

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Dump has just hit a new ethical low. He is now stating he'll vigorously encourage the institution of the death penalty across the United States.
This is what the conservatives/Republicans/right wingers are - he's just their mouthpiece.
 

ygolo

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Z Buck McFate

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I came here for Herring's take on Musk endorsing AfD. I read Joyce Vance's take, but I imagine Herring's would be helpful too.

The craziest thing about this "let's bring in exceptional immigrants" business is that it's the *actual* "they're stealing our jobs" threat that they've been using to amplify zenophobia in their base to secure political loyalty (while campaigning they were talking about the jobs that no Americans want anyway; now Musk is directly endorsing giving the jobs Americans DO want to immigrants). And it's from the shitty "college isn't for everyone" party that wants to defund public education. Let's let other countries use tax dollars to make people 'exceptional', and then we can just import them for free - instead of investing in the education of people who are already here. I mean, we're going to need people to fill all the menial labor job openings after mass deportations. Prison labor can only go so far. (Side note, in case it wasnt mentioned here: privatized prison stock skyrocketed the day after Trump won the election).
 
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Virtual ghost

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The funny element of the story is that he is endorsing German MAGA as the future. While he thinks that American one is uneducated and unfit for the job. What indicates that what he is actually interested is instability in Europe. What is logical since he is in a number of serious legal problems in Europe (over spread of misinformation and similar to that). What indicates that all he cares about is himself and acts accordingly.

I am afraid that it is simple as that.
 

Red Herring

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I came here for Herring's take on Musk endorsing AfD. I read Joyce Vance's take, but I imagine Herring's would be helpful too.

The craziest thing about this "let's bring in exceptional immigrants" business is that it's the *actual* "they're stealing our jobs" threat that they've been using to amplify zenophobia in their base to secure political loyalty (while campaigning they were talking about the jobs that no Americans want anyway; now Musk is directly endorsing giving the jobs Americans DO want to immigrants). And it's from the shitty "college isn't for everyone" party that wants to defund public education. Let's let other countries use tax dollars to make people 'exceptional', and then we can just import them for free - instead of investing in the education of people who are already here. I mean, we're going to need people to fill all the menial labor job openings after mass exportations. Prison labor can only go so far. (Side note, in case it wasnt mentioned here: privatized prison stock skyrocketed the day after Trump won the election).
The salaries for foreign highly qualified personell are normally not lower than for native ones (we are talking about people who can pick between competing countries/companies offering them job opportunities) and the entire hiring process can be seriously expensive when done internationally. So companies should have little interest in hiring foreign educated people over natives. I am not buying the argument that business owners actively want universities and schools to be run into the ground so that they can instead import foreign trained staff. That makes no sense economically.

Germany's unemployment rate is currently at about 6.5% (compared to 4.2% in the US). We have about 2.7 million unemployed people (many of whom are too sick to work and many of whom lack formal qualifications). Some 59% of our unemployed and among young adults about 88% of our unemployed lack any professional training or tertiary education. On the other hand we have some 700.000 open jobs. And in my country we have relatively decent labor laws, collective bargaining agreements, etc. so I am not talking about a lack of people flipping burgers for a pittance. I am talking about a lack of trained staff willing to do wellpaid secure jobs. This lack of qualified personell is a serious problem for our economy. Among others, we are lacking engineers, doctors, teachers, nurses and IT experts but also busdrivers and people in manufacturing.
Education makes up 4.5% of our national budget (5.44% in the US, where defense is 13.3%). Education is an essential ressource for businesses. Saving on education makes little sense. On average Germany annually spends 9.500 euros per school child. Universities (which are basically free here for students and almost all publically funded) spend about 11.000 euros per university student annually. The cost for an unemployed adult (including administration, etc) already was 19.600 euros per year a decade ago, I couldn't find any current estimates. In the US where universities are

Saving on education makes no sense macroeconomically. Even less so for individual entrepreneurs. This sounds like a xenophobic conspiracy theory to me.

As far as Musk and his motivation is concerned, his legal troubles in Europe might play a role but he's not Putin (who does have a great interest in destabilizing the EU). My impression is that this a a rich guy in a midlife crises who is looking for new things to do with his money and social leverage. He is already obscenely rich. So he went for social influence and sucessfully bought it. That wasn't fufilling and criticism increased. That means hurt narcicism. So he started buying political influence next. He basically bought the White House and now he is trying to find some new toys in Europe. Destruction is a way of demonstrating dominance, sandbox behavior. Others in his position pick a social mission and found charities, he picked smashing "TheSystemtm" as a hobby. It's the billionaire's version of buying a motorcycle.
 

Z Buck McFate

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I am not buying the argument that business owners actively want universities and schools to be run into the ground so that they can instead import foreign trained staff. That makes no sense economically.
My post wasn't clear. I was hoping to find your take on AfD (what it is, whether it's as legal for Musk to buy influence over there as it is here, etc). The education tangent was venting about what's happening here.

It isn't that businesses want to run colleges in the ground so much as obscenely rich people don't want to pay taxes that'd assist with college (which has gotten insanely expensive) or the public education leading up to college. They're okay with college being out of reach for everyone whose family is outside the highest income brackets. There's the voucher program, which moves funds from public schools to private schools. They poured insane amounts of money into fear campaigns about public schools indoctrinating children into communism and convincing kids they're gay/trans. Trump literally said, at pretty much every rally, "They're giving kids sex changes at school. You go to pick up your kid, and they're a different gender." There are countless far right "think tanks" generating hysteria about how damaging public schools are. One of the biggest swamp villains, where education is concerned, is Betsy Devos - looking her up would probably tell you everything you need to know about how they're trying to destroy public education and/or limit access to higher education.
 

SensEye

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As far as Musk and his motivation is concerned, his legal troubles in Europe might play a role but he's not Putin (who does have a great interest in destabilizing the EU). My impression is that this a a rich guy in a midlife crises who is looking for new things to do with his money and social leverage. He is already obscenely rich. So he went for social influence and sucessfully bought it. That wasn't fufilling and criticism increased. That means hurt narcicism. So he started buying political influence next. He basically bought the White House and now he is trying to find some new toys in Europe. Destruction is a way of demonstrating dominance, sandbox behavior. Others in his position pick a social mission and found charities, he picked smashing "TheSystemtm" as a hobby. It's the billionaire's version of buying a motorcycle.
I agree with you here. Too bad Musk's space program wasn't enough to occupy his interest. That would be a way for him to spend his money that I could get behind. And if he advanced science and technology as a result, he could get public accolades that way (a nobel prize or what have you). Alas, he wants personal attention and to be in the spotlight constantly so he has to poke his nose into politics. It seems to be the sugar rush of repeatedly getting in the media that keeps these narcissists running. Witness Trump who has to be constantly trolling to get himself in the news even though he will be in the oval office in just a few weeks.
 

Coriolis

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I came here for Herring's take on Musk endorsing AfD. I read Joyce Vance's take, but I imagine Herring's would be helpful too.

The craziest thing about this "let's bring in exceptional immigrants" business is that it's the *actual* "they're stealing our jobs" threat that they've been using to amplify zenophobia in their base to secure political loyalty (while campaigning they were talking about the jobs that no Americans want anyway; now Musk is directly endorsing giving the jobs Americans DO want to immigrants). And it's from the shitty "college isn't for everyone" party that wants to defund public education. Let's let other countries use tax dollars to make people 'exceptional', and then we can just import them for free - instead of investing in the education of people who are already here. I mean, we're going to need people to fill all the menial labor job openings after mass exportations. Prison labor can only go so far. (Side note, in case it wasnt mentioned here: privatized prison stock skyrocketed the day after Trump won the election).
There are some additional dimensions to this question.

1. Oftentimes there IS no U.S. citizen with the skills to take on some highly specialized job, usually in STEM. I agree that more needs to be done to encourage American students to pursue STEM topics, especially at the graduate level. This is not simply a matter of consistent funding, but also ensuring American students have adequate preparation to succeed in these fields, as well as giving them the motivation and stamina to do it. As someone with advanced STEM degrees, I know how much work it is. As someone who has taught in this area, I have noted a decline in the ability or perhaps readiness of American students to wrestle with very challenging material and research activities. It will take a multifaceted and sustained approach to turn this around. In the meantime, positions will either go empty, be filled by people who are not up to the task, or be filled by foreigners, often those who have come here to study and want now to work in their field.

2. All that being said, many jobs in STEM fields are in the defense sector, where employers are not allowed to hire people on work visas, however good their skills. The national security implications of this have still not been enough to motivate the development of domestic talent I described above.

3. The "college isn't for everyone" argument should not be dismissed as just a tactic to defund public education. The most important public education is K-12 school, which affects all students. College isn't for everyone, and isn't for every job either. Many jobs currently require applicants to have a college degree when it really isn't needed to do the work. This just pushes more people to enroll to get the paper credential, pushing up costs and devaluing the product received. We need more investment and exposure to opportunities in skilled trades, and specialized job training programs, e.g. for medical assistants and computer technicians. Community colleges have stepped up to offer many of these programs, so if we include them in "college" then perhaps "college is for most" would be fair to say. Traditional 4-year academic university education, though, isn't.
 

Red Herring

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My post wasn't clear. I was hoping to find your take on AfD (what it is, whether it's as legal for Musk to buy influence over there as it is here, etc). The education tangent was venting about what's happening here.
Yes, I am aware of many of the problems of the American educational system (we also have severe problems in that sector over here, some similar, some different).

My take on the AfD? That could become an extremely long post. What I think of the AfD and whether what Musk is doing is illegal are two completely seperate questions though.

Contrary to what some people might say Germany is a free country. We have no explicit laws against foreign political interference and from what I can gather as a layperson what Musk is doing is absoutely falling under free speech. When both the EU and the German government warn against the dangers of foreign interference with elections they do mean both psych ops (mostly false information on social media) as well as cyberwarfare. Of course there are also ongoing physical attacks on infrastructure, we had important underwater cables in the Baltics damaged by a Russian ship only a few days ago. A foreign billionaire voicing his opinion is not against the rules, even though it may cause more damage than, say, damaging an electrical power plant or hacking the e-mails of a government office.

The AfD is not a uniform group. Both the party and its supporters cover the entire spectrum from what Americans would simply call "conservatives" for whom the CD became too moderate under Merkel to bona fide Sieg Heil nazis. The problem is that with every year since its foundation the party has become more and more extremist and that doesn't seem to put people off. It has helped to normalize a certain discourse. Some of the regional chapters of the party have officially been declared extremist by the secret service. The party has been hovering between 10% and 20% for the last few years. I don't know of any supporters among my friends and family, but then again I don't have much of a social life. Statistically AfD supporters tend to be uneducated younger or middleaged men in poorer rural areas. One difference between the US and Germany (where religions tends to play next tp no rule at all in politics) is that Christians are actually LESS likely to vote AfD than people with no denominations. As @Virtual ghost has repeatedly pointed out, our far-right differs quite a bit from your far-right. I would still say though that despite all the culture war windowdressing (which we also have) the main pillar of teh European far-right os immigration. The problem, as I see it, is that there actually IS a partial problem with immigration, the far-right just doesn't offer any contructive solutions other than "send them all home!".
 

Coriolis

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The AfD is not a uniform group. Both the party and its supporters cover the entire spectrum from what Americans would simply call "conservatives" for whom the CD became too moderate under Merkel to bona fide Sieg Heil nazis. The problem is that with every year since its foundation the party has become more and more extremist and that doesn't seem to put people off. It has helped to normalize a certain discourse. Some of the regional chapters of the party have officially been declared extremist by the secret service. The party has been hovering between 10% and 20% for the last few years. I don't know of any supporters among my friends and family, but then again I don't have much of a social life. Statistically AfD supporters tend to be uneducated younger or middleaged men in poorer rural areas. One difference between the US and Germany (where religions tends to play next tp no rule at all in politics) is that Christians are actually LESS likely to vote AfD than people with no denominations. As @Virtual ghost has repeatedly pointed out, our far-right differs quite a bit from your far-right. I would still say though that despite all the culture war windowdressing (which we also have) the main pillar of teh European far-right os immigration. The problem, as I see it, is that there actually IS a partial problem with immigration, the far-right just doesn't offer any contructive solutions other than "send them all home!".
Immigration is one of many issues where emotions on both sides impede the making and implementation of sound, fact-based decisions. Even looking only at the economic and public safety (e.g. crime) dimensions, "send them all home" is simplistic, causes as many problems as it solves, and leaves others unaddressed. In the U.S., for instance, non-citizens are far less likely to commit crimes than citizens. This is especially true of undocumented people, who usually go to great lengths to avoid any contact with law enforcement.

As for how Christians vote, I have found it appalling how many people who claim to be Christian vote for Trump and his ilk. Jesus' example is the antithesis of the hate, exclusion, discord, and lies that permeate these folks' campaigning and governance. They should be ashamed of themselves. I would say Jesus is probably rolling in his grave, but that's not part of his story.
 

Z Buck McFate

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3. The "college isn't for everyone" argument should not be dismissed as just a tactic to defund public education. The most important public education is K-12 school, which affects all students. College isn't for everyone, and isn't for every job either. Many jobs currently require applicants to have a college degree when it really isn't needed to do the work. This just pushes more people to enroll to get the paper credential, pushing up costs and devaluing the product received. We need more investment and exposure to opportunities in skilled trades, and specialized job training programs, e.g. for medical assistants and computer technicians. Community colleges have stepped up to offer many of these programs, so if we include them in "college" then perhaps "college is for most" would be fair to say. Traditional 4-year academic university education, though, isn't.

I agree with this completely. I put quotes around the phrase because it's the verbatim answer one of those turkeys (I want to say Kellyanne Conway?) gave as a response when asked how lower middle-class kids are supposed to afford rising college costs. College isn't for everyone, but parents' income level should not be the deciding factor.
 
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