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Random Politics Thread

Red Herring

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A curious illustration of how radicals embolden each other:

A rather unknown member of the CDU (belonging to the rightwing of the party and also a member of the Werteunion, which is somewhere between the CDU and the AfD) has gained unfavorable prominence this week with a tweet which I am going to translate here as best I can:

If it should happen that female votes bring the political marriage-imposter Robert H.* into the office of chancelor and therefor push Germany into the abyss, we will have to unofficially reconsider female suffrage and officially consider lessons in anti-emotional democracy

* "Robert H." is referring to Robert Habeck, the Green Party's candidate for chancelor.

Translation: If women vote for the left they forfit their right to vote.

Robert Habeck is a much hated figure by the far-right (the only thing they hate more than a male member of the Greens is a female member of the Greens). The guy has a degree in philosophy and linguistics and a PhD in literature and has published several novels, poetry volumes and plays as an author and translator before first serving in not one but two cabinets on a state level and then serving as national party head and then federal minister of the economy ... but the far-right keeps referring to him as "the children's book author Habeck" because he also published a children's book at some point which apparently disqualifies a man from public office.
 

Totenkindly

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This kind of stuff just disgusts me at its shamelessness.

It's like amateur hour and people with no experience who never ran for the office saying, "Oh, wouldn't that be fun to do?" Talk about unworthy.

Kind of like Musk deciding he'd like to dabble in politics now for awhile and play with government structures, just because he happens to be a billionaire.

They have no idea what they're doing.
 

SensEye

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Crazy shit. Hopefully not serious but one never knows with Trump. I've always thought Trump wants to bring the US back to a monarchy. Not only for the 'yes, your highness' butt kissing he so clearly craves but also to get his loser family into high office to carry on his legacy.

Should be a colorful first 100 days this time round.
 

Kingu Kurimuzon

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Tom Paine thought that the finite nature of land in the USA meant that every citizen who was unable to be landowner should be compensated for being excluded from ownership by a kind of tax on rents funded dividend to each and all. This was with the aim of preventing a landed gentry and aristocracy emerging as it had in Europe and the UK. Its all in his book Agrarian Justice, which I think is usually appended to his Rights of Man and Age of Reason, I cant remember which one it is but one of them is largely a response to Burke's Reflections on The Revolution in France which.

I need to find the source but there were also proposals about the democratic management of enterprises or land holdings beyond a certain size, this is the kind of thing that socialists were very late to think about as for so long socialists were this kind of apocalypse cult who conceived of their next revolution as something akin to the second coming of Christ, very short on detail as to what the things might look like on the morrow of any momentous change, whether it was an election win or insurrection or whatever.

It was all about combating the plutocratic tendencies that they all saw as more or less a thing over a scale longer than the foundation of any change.

I am aware that there's obvious limits in this, the political franchise didnt include women, slaves, it was old men, often old proprietors / ratespayers and there's no mention of the fact that the land was already occupied and being used by the native population too. Jefferson who I like for some of his ideas about an agrarian republic of yeoman farmers had some views which were awful about enslaved people and native people, he pulled murderous tricks on the natives which were almost a copy of Cromwell's actions in Ireland, his main rival the Jacksonian Democrats were about as bad.

So I dont pretend that these democratic control of land, property, enterprise ideas are as radical as may seem, there's a danger in reading things out of context or in an ahistorical way but the point is that the kind of myopic view of "cut taxes at any cost, property uber alas" were not as deeply rooted in the US, once upon a time, in either the Republicans or Democrats. There was a consensus that's been engineered out of the US.

Like its a country in which Henry George and Bellamy were popular authors, their ideas are both pretty left of the left to be honest, hardly likely to win a readership today but its a clue to how far project creep has worked for the capitalists in the US.
I love some Henry George, brother

Geolibertarian Socialism is the way
 

The Cat

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They have no idea what they're doing.
They know *what* they're doing. They're running a long con. Unfortunately they have no idea how to do the work of their "cover" (not being con artists)
 

Lark

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I love some Henry George, brother

Geolibertarian Socialism is the way

Its just one path not taken, there are lots of them, distributivism is another, universal basic incomes, income guarantees, different types of redesigned distribution like the capital assets for all ideas at the heart of the trust funds conceived by Blair's Labour and erased at a stroke by the UKCP.

Check it out:-
 

Totenkindly

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Oh, Mike... you were SO close to getting this one right, too...!

Screenshot_20241115_140647_Facebook.jpg
 

Kingu Kurimuzon

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Its just one path not taken, there are lots of them, distributivism is another, universal basic incomes, income guarantees, different types of redesigned distribution like the capital assets for all ideas at the heart of the trust funds conceived by Blair's Labour and erased at a stroke by the UKCP.

Check it out:-
“The Old Testament decreed that every 50th year should be a jubilee in which all land would be returned to its original owners, debts cancelled, slaves set free and transactions in the preceding half century annulled. There is no evidence that this was attempted. But the injunction showed a recognition that capital ownership should not depend entirely on the accidents of heredity and past transfers.”

I’m of the mind that hereditary wealth should be completely abolished. Debt should be forgiven after a given number of years. Etc. Conservatives and right wingers talk a big game about people earning their own way yet they support passing on of generational wealth to children that in no way earn or deserve it any more than someone born into poverty. I am okay with people earning their own wealth and becoming rich, but I think that their earned wealth should be redistributed to society upon their death—they could choose to donate it to charity if they see fit, but otherwise it would go to funding something like the guaranteed trust you’ve talking about. Goes without saying that this wealth should also be taxed heavily while they’re still alive. And a UBI or negative income tax would be nice as well.

I’d support a trust of 1 million dollars for every person turning eighteen years old. Funding this in the USA would be a drop in the bucket compared to what we spend in other areas. Sure, some would squander it or spend it foolishly, but that happens with many that receive hereditary wealth as well. Trump declared bankruptcy how many times? Six? And I think we would be surprised how many people would channel that money into productive endeavors, either in the form of entrepreneurship or creation of art. That’s how we could actually encourage something like a nation of artisans and independent merchants that some of the American founders envisioned but had no real concept of how to achieve it
 
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Lark

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I’m of the mind that hereditary wealth should be completely abolished. Debt should be forgiven after a given number of years. Etc. Conservatives and right wingers talk a big game about people earning their own way yet they support passing on of generational wealth to children that in no way earn or deserve it any more than someone born into poverty. I am okay with people earning their own wealth and becoming rich, but I think that their earned wealth should be redistributed to society upon their death—they could choose to donate it to charity if they see fit, but otherwise it would go to funding something like the guaranteed trust you’ve talking about. Goes without saying that this wealth should also be taxed heavily while they’re still alive. And a UBI or negative income tax would be nice as well.

I’d support a trust of 1 million dollars for every person turning eighteen years old. Funding this in the USA would be a drop in the bucket compared to what we spend in other areas. Sure, some would squander it or spend it foolishly, but that happens with many that receive hereditary wealth as well. Trump declared bankruptcy how many times? Six? And I think we would be surprised how many people would channel that money into productive endeavors, either in the form of entrepreneurship or creation of art. That’s how we could actually encourage something like a nation of artisans and independent merchants that some of the American founders envisioned but had no real concept of how to achieve it

I know there's some trends towards endorsing the "die with zero" idea, in terms of hereditary wealth, in publishing, there's evidence of how harmful it can be from hollywood and celebrity wealth already but its informal and I think it pretty much always will be as it would be political sure death to propose such a thing.

The thing is this is all above a certain income bracket and social class that its even a thing, in the UK at the moment the costs associated with retirement and social care, whether they are handled publically by taxation or privately, result in people losing the "earnings of a life time", most people can hope to own a house and that's about it anyway. There are ways to circumnavigate it worked out by accountants but in the main they are shutting that down. So, while old money, old legacies will remain, there will not be new ones.

I do agree with you that the founding fathers and some of the "industrial / productivity" focus free marketeers should be more aligned with this thinking and are not. Interestingly, the reason why the UK never had a national lottery and had restrictions during the eighties on gambling apparently had something to do with Thatcher's own thinking that fortune should be the result of hard work or saving your money and not blind luck.

The thing about squandering Trusts, benefits, whatever is that it still circulates money in the economy, which offshoring it to an panama account does not. That the spend would occur each time the population reached the age of majority should go some way to stabilizing population growth or replacement rates at least, it should also enlist those demographic shifts in ironing out boom and bust cycles in the economy, unless absolutely everyone became spendthrift at once.

With the ability to donate all to charity at the "reset point" though there's ways that old money could create Trusts to maintain legacies, that happens already, a lot of old money families you'll find their kids did "charity" work for a long time on their CV and it turns out the charity was just "an allowance from mom and pop with extra steps".

The only issues I can see would be people deliberately seeking to have a massive family in order to maximise familial wealth, that could be a thing which would need to be managed for somehow. I also think that spendthrift behaviour does circulate money in the economy, unless its the black economy, ie drugs, other sorts of criminal activity, which I dont think there's any correcting for already either.

I dont know how high any trust ought to be, the one in the UK was set up to reflect savings and investments habits of the public owners aswell as state contributions, I thought that was good as it encouraged financial literacy. The market socialists back then had a lot of cool ideas about spreading financial literacy in order that a sort of control of the economy through awareness of private financial control could be created. Though like I say it wasnt widely understood, supported or reported, so people didnt miss any of it once it was gone.

Globalization was weaponized by elites to stop a lot of national experiments like this taking place. It was basically trying to make it plain to everyone that if anyone tried they would move their money someplace it was not happening. Its part of why I think ideas like these have to start small and gain momentum as opposed to be introduced at a stroke or by stealth because they can be eradicated in the exact same way.

On the whole idea of taxes, progressive or otherwise, while I would like to redesign distribution, and I am a socialist, there are types of inequality that I dont mind, including income inequality, provided it does not prove to be anti-social or socially corrosive.
 

The Cat

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Well Well, A second Trump term with project 2025 at the helm.
Elon Musk worming into the halls of political power
And Joe Manchin gets to play the hero.
We live in interesting times indeed.​
 
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Tom Paine thought that the finite nature of land in the USA meant that every citizen who was unable to be landowner should be compensated for being excluded from ownership by a kind of tax on rents funded dividend to each and all. This was with the aim of preventing a landed gentry and aristocracy emerging as it had in Europe and the UK. Its all in his book Agrarian Justice, which I think is usually appended to his Rights of Man and Age of Reason, I cant remember which one it is but one of them is largely a response to Burke's Reflections on The Revolution in France which.
Tom Paine didn't really have anything to do with creating the new government, though. He recruited people to fight for the cause but I don't believe he played a role in determining what happened after the revolution.
 

Lark

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Tom Paine didn't really have anything to do with creating the new government, though. He recruited people to fight for the cause but I don't believe he played a role in determining what happened after the revolution.

I'm inclined to agree, especially since his schemes for agrarian justice never made it off the page.
 

Kingu Kurimuzon

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I know there's some trends towards endorsing the "die with zero" idea, in terms of hereditary wealth, in publishing, there's evidence of how harmful it can be from hollywood and celebrity wealth already but its informal and I think it pretty much always will be as it would be political sure death to propose such a thing.

The thing is this is all above a certain income bracket and social class that its even a thing, in the UK at the moment the costs associated with retirement and social care, whether they are handled publically by taxation or privately, result in people losing the "earnings of a life time", most people can hope to own a house and that's about it anyway. There are ways to circumnavigate it worked out by accountants but in the main they are shutting that down. So, while old money, old legacies will remain, there will not be new ones.

I do agree with you that the founding fathers and some of the "industrial / productivity" focus free marketeers should be more aligned with this thinking and are not. Interestingly, the reason why the UK never had a national lottery and had restrictions during the eighties on gambling apparently had something to do with Thatcher's own thinking that fortune should be the result of hard work or saving your money and not blind luck.

The thing about squandering Trusts, benefits, whatever is that it still circulates money in the economy, which offshoring it to an panama account does not. That the spend would occur each time the population reached the age of majority should go some way to stabilizing population growth or replacement rates at least, it should also enlist those demographic shifts in ironing out boom and bust cycles in the economy, unless absolutely everyone became spendthrift at once.

Yep, velocity of money, I think is what some economists call that. Keeping more money pumped into the economy. It seems like common sense. It would be a constant economic stimulus.
With the ability to donate all to charity at the "reset point" though there's ways that old money could create Trusts to maintain legacies, that happens already, a lot of old money families you'll find their kids did "charity" work for a long time on their CV and it turns out the charity was just "an allowance from mom and pop with extra steps".

Yes, they (the old rich) will always look for loopholes and shortcuts to preserve their financial legacies
The only issues I can see would be people deliberately seeking to have a massive family in order to maximise familial wealth, that could be a thing which would need to be managed for somehow. I also think that spendthrift behaviour does circulate money in the economy, unless its the black economy, ie drugs, other sorts of criminal activity, which I dont think there's any correcting for already either.
There will always be a black market but I think that’s one thing that can be mitigated with fewer regulations on certain products and services. Depends on the service though. Healthcare should be heavily regulated and centralized, for instance, but certain other services or products, not so much
I dont know how high any trust ought to be, the one in the UK was set up to reflect savings and investments habits of the public owners aswell as state contributions, I thought that was good as it encouraged financial literacy. The market socialists back then had a lot of cool ideas about spreading financial literacy in order that a sort of control of the economy through awareness of private financial control could be created. Though like I say it wasnt widely understood, supported or reported, so people didnt miss any of it once it was gone.
That is my biggest complaint about education in the US—we don’t provide a mandatory schooling on basic financial literacy, how to save money and spend within one’s means. It’s no wonder we’re a nation of debtors.
Globalization was weaponized by elites to stop a lot of national experiments like this taking place. It was basically trying to make it plain to everyone that if anyone tried they would move their money someplace it was not happening. Its part of why I think ideas like these have to start small and gain momentum as opposed to be introduced at a stroke or by stealth because they can be eradicated in the exact same way.
Yes, start them on a local/communal scale and they are more likely to gain momentum and popularity. I don’t think you can just implement these sorts of policies suddenly from the top down and expect success or support for them.

I support a land value tax but the best examples of it working are in localities.
On the whole idea of taxes, progressive or otherwise, while I would like to redesign distribution, and I am a socialist, there are types of inequality that I dont mind, including income inequality, provided it does not prove to be anti-social or socially corrosive.
As long as everyone has their basic needs met and people aren’t living in poverty, I have no problem With economic inequalities.

I would support a sort of economic based affirmative action program in the USA
 
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Coriolis

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They've been trying to get it passed in Detroit, where I think it would work.
How is a land value tax different from a property tax? If it is not directly linked to ability to pay (i.e. income), I would not be in favor. We already have far too many taxes that are regressive in this respect.
 
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