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Ok, but this is in my opinion the fundamental flaw of the US politics. That choice was made in 2020 and we can say that it worked. However there is no reason to link 2020 and 2024 this closely. All of you are constantly looking for some form of continuation, while in turbulent times that can be a mistake. Since the right path can quickly shift in this case. We have to be honest here, the only real reason why Trump lost 2020 was COVID. Plus to make things worse in that year Biden wasn't fairly unpopular candidate. You can't just project same thing into the future over and over and think that the result will always be the same. But if you guys are going with Biden than ok, it will just have to do. From what I understand it is already too late to start a new campaign with someone else. Since some deadlines have passed when it comes to being on a ballot.
To be fair, I wasn't given a choice then and I'm not now. But I'm still not in favor of throwing bloodless moderates against the Trump wall to see what sticks. That's "conventional wisdom", not strategy.

Yes, there could be a better candidate. You'd need an inspring orator in the Obama mold. I can think of other kinds of candidates that might work but the Democratic Party would never let them get through. At least they're also stopping some bloodless moderates, which makes me happy.

But you can't go up against Trump all stiff, icy and "rational". You'd melt. This was already tried. Sometimes you really do need to fight fire with fire.
 
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Virtual ghost

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To be fair, I wasn't given a choice then and I'm not now. But I'm still not in favor of throwing bloodless moderates against the Trump wall to see what sticks. That's "conventional wisdom", not strategy.

Yes, there could be a better candidate. You'd need an inspring orator in the Obama mold. I can think of other kinds of candidates that might work but the Democratic Party would never let them get through. At least they're also stopping some bloodless moderates, which makes me happy.

But you can't go up against Trump all stiff, icy and "rational". You'd melt. Sometimes you really do need to fight fire with fire.

I didn't say anything about being or looking openly rational. My concern is can the incumbent wins, and possibly without some ultra narrow margin. Since it is of vital importance not to repeat the whole Jan 6th part of the story. Plus keeping the senate will require something that is much more than a narrow win. In my opinion the problem is exactly that the ticket could be looking none inspiring for the most part.
 
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I didn't say anything about being or looking openly rational. My concern is can the incumbent wins, and possibly without some ultra narrow margin. Since it is of vital importance not to repeat the whole Jan 6th part of the story. Plus keeping the senate will require something that is much more than a narrow win. In my opinion the problem is exactly that the ticket could be looking none inspiring for the most part.
Sorry. No, you didn't. Unfortunately the political system is not very responsive to change, which poses all kinds of problems.
 
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I think getting old sucks, but everyone's doing it. I hope that the younger folks currently and coming up don't make the mistake of filling in all older and old people with the same basic crayons. The future is coming faster than anyone would like, but I hope its a future that's not based on Logan's Run. Sometimes age brings, experience, wisdom, and a perspective, that can be all too often, not ripe yet in youth.

The Aged and the Young need to work together, or they'll die together and no one will be left to wonder what we could have done different.
Yup. I try to stop myself now from complaining about the Boomers.

Abe Simpson- "I used to be with It, but then they changed what It was. Now what's it is weird and scary!"

This makes a lot of sense. Especially considering the amount of spilled ink by millenials on what has happened to McDonald's Play Places. It's already happening and we're already reminiscing about the good old days. (I won't complain about the Play Places, but I might be like, things used to be much better in the 90s)
 
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The Cat

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It is way too early to be talking about the next election like anyone knows what's really going to happen. The GOP is in disarray, regardless what the early polls. Follow the money.
A billionaire losing half his money still loses less than he would under a dictator. A lesson certain rich folk learned in 1933-1945.​
 

The Cat

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Yup. I try to stop myself now from complaining about the Boomers.

Abe Simpson- "I used to be with It, but then they changed what It was. Now what's it is weird and scary!"

This makes a lot of sense. Especially considering the amount of spilled ink by millenials on what has happened to McDonald's Play Places. It's already happening and we're already reminiscing about the good old days. (I won't complain about the Play Places, but I might be like, things used to be much better in the 90s)
Aesthetics change, but people are born people, age and die as people do and have and if we're all very lucky, we'll keep it up for another few millennia. If you want to tweek your brain watch some old documentaries of boomers when they were the age millennials and zoomers are now.
 

Red Herring

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It is way too early to be talking about the next election like anyone knows what's really going to happen. The GOP is in disarray, regardless what the early polls. Follow the money.
A billionaire losing half his money still loses less than he would under a dictator. A lesson certain rich folk learned in 1933-1945.​
Most people who lost their property or even their lives in that period were not rich. Conversely quite a few millionaires got even richer.

You might be familiar with the famous image by John Heartfield ("The true meaning of the Hitler salute - millions are standing behind me")...
91.139_01_b02-Large-TIFF_4000-pixels-long.jpg
 

The Cat

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Most people who lost their property or even their lives in that period were not rich. Conversely quite a few millionaires got even richer.

You might be familiar with the famous image by John Heartfield ("The true meaning of the Hitler salute - millions are standing behind me")...
91.139_01_b02-Large-TIFF_4000-pixels-long.jpg
Oh of course. Most of the people who pay prices are never rich. There's a trend in my state where the poorest people get the highest bonds, while the richer you are it becomes debatable whether anyone will ever even mention a price to pay on anything. Its kinda like realizing that you're too poor to be able to relate to the average CW character on television. I dunno. I just would think more rich people would be concerned about the rise of fascism and authoritarianism everywhere, because oligarchs tend to stay oligarchs longer without the paranoia of a dictator that's not opposed to wiping out millions because they make his pants feel funny. Must be a lot of lead pipes in the world still.

I guess they think they can afford to not have to think about it. It would be more satisfying when they realized they couldn't, if millions wouldn't already be dead at that point. I cant believe we're back here in history again. again. again. again. I think there's a cliche about this.
 

Red Herring

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Oh of course. Most of the people who pay prices are never rich. There's a trend in my state where the poorest people get the highest bonds, while the richer you are it becomes debatable whether anyone will ever even mention a price to pay on anything. Its kinda like realizing that you're too poor to be able to relate to the average CW character on television. I dunno. I just would think more rich people would be concerned about the rise of fascism and authoritarianism everywhere, because oligarchs tend to stay oligarchs longer without the paranoia of a dictator that's not opposed to wiping out millions because they make his pants feel funny. Must be a lot of lead pipes in the world still.

I guess they think they can afford to not have to think about it. It would be more satisfying when they realized they couldn't, if millions wouldn't already be dead at that point. I cant believe we're back here in history again. again. again. again. I think there's a cliche about this.
Sorry if I overreacted, but the part about "A lesson certain rich folk learned in 1933-1945" sounded really weird to me.

Not sure about the US, but here in Germany (and many parts of Europe) anti-semitism is back in the headlines. The situation in Gaza has led to a lot of violent pro-Palestinian demonstrations, people celebrating the death of Israeli civilians and death threats against German Jews.

Vice-chancellor Robert Habeck held a much lauded speech yesterday that I think sums up the official German position on a complex situation (and I would agree with him as much as I'd agree with Slavoj Zizek's controversial speech on the Frankfurt bookfair - I'd say together the two speeches represent my own take on things quite well):

Our historical responsibility also means that Jews must be able to live freely and safely
in Germany. That they never again have to be afraid to openly show their religion and
their culture. But it is precisely this fear that is back.

I recently met with members of the Jewish community in Frankfurt. In the intense,
painful talk we had, the community representatives told me that their children are afraid
to go to school, that they no longer go to sports clubs, that they leave their necklaces
with the Star of David at home on the advice of their parents.
Today, here in Germany. Almost 80 years after the Holocaust.
They told us that they no longer dare to get into a taxi, that they no longer put return
addresses on letters to protect their recipients.
The scale of the Islamist demonstrations in Berlin and other cities in Germany is
unacceptable and needs a tough political response. This is also needed from the Muslim
associations. Some have clearly distanced themselves from the actions of Hamas and from
anti-Semitism, and have sought dialogue. But not all of them – some have been too
hesitant to do so, and it’s been too few overall.
Muslims living here are entitled to protection from right-wing extremist violence – and rightly
so. When they are attacked, their right to protection must be honoured and they must also
honour this right of the Jews now that the Jews have been attacked.
They must clearly
distance themselves from anti-Semitism so as not to undermine their own right to tolerance.
There is no place for religious intolerance in Germany.
Whoever lives here does so according to the rules of this country. And whoever comes
here must know that this is how it is and that this will be enforced.
Our constitution provides protection and bestows rights, but it also imposes obligations
that must be fulfilled by all. You cannot separate the two. Tolerance cannot tolerate
intolerance here. This is the core of our coexistence in the Federal Republic of Germany.

This means that burning Israeli flags is a criminal offence, as is praising Hamas terror. Any
German citizen who does this will have to answer for such offences in court; those who are
not German citizens will also risk their residency status. Anyone who does not yet have a
residence permit will have provided a reason to be deported.
Islamist anti-Semitism, however, should not blind us to the fact that we also have
entrenched anti-Semitism in Germany. The only difference is that the right-wing extremists
are currently holding back, for purely tactical reasons, in order to be able to agitate against
Muslims
. (...)
But I am also concerned about the anti-Semitism in parts of the political left, and sadly
among young activists as well. Anti-colonialism must not lead to anti-Semitism.
In this
respect, this part of the political left should review its arguments and distrust the big
resistance narrative.
The “both sides” argument is misleading here. Hamas is a
murderous terrorist group fighting for the annihilation of the state of Israel and the
death of all Jews. The clarity with which the German section of Fridays For Future, for
example, has stated this, and the fact it has done so in contrast to its international
friends, is more than respectabable.
When I was in Turkey recently, it was thrown into my teeth that pro-Palestinian
demonstrations are banned in Germany. And that Germany must also apply its
humanitarian demands to the people in Gaza. I made it clear that criticism of Israel is of
course allowed here. That it is not banned for people to stand up for the
rights of the Palestinians and also their right to their own state. But calling for
violence against Jews or celebrating violence against Jews is prohibited – and rightly so!
Yes, life in Gaza is life in poverty without prospects for the future. Yes, the settler
movement in the West Bank is fomenting discord and robs the Palestinians of hope and
rights and, increasingly, lives. And the suffering of the civilian population now at war is a
fact, a terrible fact.
Every dead child is one dead child too many.
I, too, call for humanitarian supplies, and am committed to ensuring that water,
medicines, and relief supplies are delivered to Gaza, and that the refugees are protected.
Together with our American friends, we are making it clear to Israel time and again that
the protection of the civilian population is paramount.
The death and suffering that is now
engulfing the people of Gaza is terrible.
To say this is as necessary as it is legitimate. Systematic violence against Jews, however, can
still not be legitimised by this.
Anti-Semitism cannot be justified by this.
Of course, Israel must abide by international law and international standards. But the
difference is this: would someone ever frame such expectations of Hamas?

And because I was recently confronted abroad with how the attack on Israel on the 7th of
October was downplayed as – quote – an “unfortunate incident”, and even the facts were
called into question, let me remind you here once again: it was Hamas, who cruelly
murdered children, parents, and grandparents in their homes.
Whose fighters mutilated corpses, kidnapped people and laughingly exposed them to
public humiliation.
There are accounts of sheer horror – and yet Hamas is hailed as a freedom
movement? This is a reversal of the facts, which we cannot allow to stand

Those who have not given up hope for peace in the region, those who believe in the right
of the Palestinians to a state of their own and a real perspective – as we do – must now
differentiate in these difficult weeks.
And differentiating means to acknowledge that the murderous acts of Hamas are
intended to prevent peace. Hamas does not want reconciliation with Israel,
but the extermination of Israel.

And this is why it is pivotal to make it clear that Israel’s right to exist must not be
relativised. Israel's security is our obligation. Germany knows this.



Link to the complete transcript
 

The Cat

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Sorry if I overreacted, but the part about "A lesson certain rich folk learned in 1933-1945" sounded really weird to me.

Not sure about the US, but here in Germany (and many parts of Europe) anti-semitism is back in the headlines. The situation in Gaza has led to a lot of violent pro-Palestinian demonstrations, people celebrating the death of Israeli civilians and death threats against German Jews.

Vice-chancellor Robert Habeck held a much lauded speech yesterday that I think sums up the official German position on a complex situation (and I would agree with him as much as I'd agree with Slavoj Zizek's controversial speech on the Frankfurt bookfair - I'd say together the two speeches represent my own take on things quite well):










Link to the complete transcript
It was a quote I found on youtube. It grabbed me a bit funny at first too, but I ultimately decided they didn't mean anything by it. I didnt take offense. Given everything thats been going on lately, (here too) I don't blame you for being on high alert. Some things must be questioned because the cost of not questioning them is historically too high. Besides you always add something informative and useful. :)
 

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Tying that aid to IRS funding cuts is so dumb. IRS funding cuts primarily help the rich who can afford to hire accountants to set up byzantine structures to game the tax system (shell corporations and offshore accounts, questionable write offs and all that jazz). Of course, that is exactly what Republican leadership wants, Republican working class voters, too concerned with various religious nonsense and conspiracy theories, are oblivious to all this. Their taxes and/or the deficit increases as a result, and the rich get richer.
 

Red Herring

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I find that video somewhat misguiding. It sounds bizarre to me that Isreal (even under Netanjahu's extremist coalition) would use nuclear arms in any other case than as a last resort after a first-strike or massive invasion by, say, Iran. And from what I could gather the previous cases he mentions were also not how he makes them sound.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samson_Option
In an article titled "Last Secret of the Six-Day War" the New York Times reported that in the days before the 1967 Six-Day War Israel planned to insert a team of paratroopers by helicopter into the Sinai. Their mission was to set up and remote detonate a nuclear bomb on a mountaintop as a warning to belligerent surrounding states. The greatly outnumbered Jewish state in a surprising turn of events effectively eliminated the Egyptian Air Force and occupied the Sinai winning the war before the test could even be set up. Retired Israeli brigadier general Itzhak Yaakov referred to this operation as the Israeli Samson Option.
In the 1973 Yom Kippur War, Arab forces were overwhelming Israeli forces and Prime Minister Golda Meir authorized a nuclear alert and ordered 13 atomic bombs be readied for use by missiles and aircraft. The Israeli Ambassador informed President Nixon that "very serious conclusions" may occur if the United States did not airlift supplies. Nixon complied. This is seen by some commentators on the subject as the first threat of the use of the Samson Option.



That being said, I count myself among those who insist on proportionality while defending Israel's right to defend itself. The situation is truly fucked up though and I see no simple solution (even though I like Shahak Shapira's "plan").
 
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The Cat

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I find that video somewhat misguiding. It sounds bizarre to me that Isreal (even under Netanjahu's extremist coalition) would use nuclear arms in any other case than as a last resort after a first-strike or massive invasion by, say, Iran. And from what I could gather the previous cases he mentions were also not how he makes them sound.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samson_Option





That being said, I count myself among those who insist on proportionality while defending Israel's right to defend itself. The situation is truly fucked up though and I see no simple solution (even though I like Shahak Shapira's "plan").

Recall 20 years ago around this time, there were parts of the US govt, who was talking similar. This is not really any different in the saber rattling. They won't nuke Gaza, its too close to them. But no one in government wants a peon who works for them on the radio talking outloud to the public, the kind of thing that the public just doesnt have the training to deal with. But the talk on the inside is gonna be like this, but typically worse. On the radio you're not supposed to hear 20 years ago: "we're gonna bomb those terroistic towel heads back to the stone age." However, behind closed doors and in the email spam folders thats exactly what you find.
This was fucking everywhere then. (its not weird al btw)
While this was never my jam it was never the less part of the scuttlebutt.

Israel is always going to be something of a bugaboo; historically the Jewish People have been hosed pretty hard and that always was and always will be a tragic thing. Whats going on there now, is just the continuing family feud that goes back to biblical times, this doesnt justify it or make it right. But when you come down to it, all a feud is people who by all rights should be on the same team, aren't and are willing to be as bloody as they can before (in their minds) it gets done to them first. There's always gonna be politicians who fancy themselves lords of war, and they don't care how many men women and children they have to leave dead, bloodied, and dying on the way to their "legacy". All I know for sure is there are the people making orders at the top, and people dying down at the bottom.

There's not gonna be any real moral high ground from any side involved. That's for when the dust settles if anyone is left alive to care. War is a house of cards with a foundation that enough people believe is ingrained in our dna, that it doesnt matter if its all bullshit leading towards MADness. People who think during times like this, don't pour gas on the fire. But Thinking takes more time than reacting, and right now, we're still in the stages of people are just reacting. A wise Chief Master Sergent once said: "It's not the politician running off at the mouth you gotta worry about. It's what they're not telling you that'll get everyone killed."

Countries don't have morals, they have interests, and they're all playing dirty pool to gamble on them.
We're gonna be seeing how good of a gambler Israel is. Hopefully they learn lessons from the US's mistakes, but The Prime Minister strikes me as a man who needs to try to carry the cat by the tail before he learns a lesson everyone he knows is gonna wish he didn't need to learn.

I'm personally not going to judge anyone for insisting on proportionality in response or vice versa. I'd much rather a hand full of war hawks driving the bus in the hallowed halls of power accidentally drink poison or get slipped in the shower rather than see soldiers or civilians catch bullets and bombs. Wet works, but most people need to see results that don't raise those kinds of tricky questions. I suspect its because one brings a spectacle and the other is quiet surgery.

Regarding the including comic video: People want fair, they have to wait till after the grave, but by then I don't think they'll care as much. You know how all over the place big families can be. There's nothing much he could say that would upset me personally, I had to make peace with how close to death we all always are, all the time, but then there's a lot I could say that would make him tell more jokes to keep from screaming. I respect a comic who gets out there like this during these kinds of times. There are always more than two sides and the machine gets steered from the back. He's on so much point for the discourse on selective humanism, and the timing of vegans. But Jeruselem has over the centuries become more than a place to too many people to be anything but a hill to die on, they'll never get rid of it. Its too valuable in blood, and you can't have a bloody feud without blood.

Hamas can go fuck itself, and so can the Prime Minister, just like the Taliban and Bush could 20 years ago. Because none of it happens in a vacuum and intelligence works harder than that. The important thing everyone needs to remember is not to panic into escalation.

Always appreciate your posts herring, thanks for the conversation, and introducing me to this comedian. I'll be checking out more of his stuff.
 
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