The Dangerous Case Of Donald Trump

[Jaguar]

Free market and all. Go, Republicans!

He's a fake Republican.

 

[Virtual ghost]

I don't think you appreciate the new quality of what has transpired since the call transcript was released. When it comes to impeachment, the question has never been whether Trump is amoral. Everybody knew he was 'morally fish' from the get-go. The question, a question now answered, is whether he broke the law and/or abused his office. So far, that case has never been made in any concise fashion. The Mueller Report made it clear that he probably had, but the whole thing was far too convoluted to work as the simple narrative you need to tell the American people: The president is a criminal.

What is new now is that the narrative is clear, simple, and easy to understand, and the evidence is not even in dispute: Trump foolishly provided it himself. The only force protecting Trump from removal now is Fox News, the propaganda machine that controls the minds of the Republican base and thus the courage of Republican members of Congress. If Fox flips, they flip. So the only question now remaining is, how long will Fox News conclude that they can deny the undeniable while retaining credibility. Do you think when all the world sees proof that Trump is not actually a billionaire, Fox will be able to ignore that forever? They make money off of scandals. At some point they will conclude that Trump is all milked out, and look for a new attention whore, because no matter what happens in the coming months, Fox will outlive Trump. They need a plan for a post-Trump world.

Are you sure ? Fairly detailed scandals are coming in for years. He seems to run his business in parallel with presidency, the pornstar and pussy thing, the university thing, family in the government, no tax returns, pushing policies that have clear amoral feeling to it ... etc. It is even hard to name all the scandals. The whole Ukraine thing really isn't that much more precise than what we have already seen, even if none of that was made into such a big deal.


I would like to be proven wrong but I don't think this will throw the guy out of the office. Now this is all new to people and they are excited but wait a few weeks for dust to settle down and then we will truly see where we are. You are from the culture and environment where laws and rules are very important while I am not, however Trump and his supporters are evidently more like mine environment than yours. Therefore I claim that the fact he broke some rules doesn't really matter. They have emotional bond and laws can screw themselves, especially if the law was broken in order to go after someone like Biden. For his base this is heroism. My local Mayor piled over 150 scandals over the years and some of them are very serious, but he is serving his 6th term none the less. The guy has his base and that is it, no one really dares to touch into that, especially now when he has a "friend of Russia" medal. Some of the charges were even dropped or ignored because they were dropped and ignored, there was no real legal reason. Therefore I claim that you perhaps see the situation in the wrong light. This is exactly why I said a number of times that Trump is textbook East-European politician in his nature and that means that rules no longer really apply in this new game. Since he knows how to make braking of the rules look cool or even useful to the people.



As I said, we will see.

 

[Nicodemus]

Trump just effectively eliminated his only real 2020 competition by using himself to drag Biden into a scandal that the media never would have touched otherwise.

Utter and devastating brilliance. You guys have my sympathies. This is definitely something only a skilled sociopath could come up with.

Trollolol.

He's a fake Republican.

By now, everybody else is a fake Republican. Trump remade the party in his own sordid image.

Are you sure ? Fairly detailed scandals are coming in for years. He seems to run his business in parallel with presidency, the pornstar and pussy thing, the university thing, family in the government, no tax returns, pushing policies that have clear amoral feeling to it ... etc. It is even hard to name all the scandals. The whole Ukraine thing really isn't that much more precise than what we have already seen, even if none of that was made into such a big deal.


I would like to be proven wrong but I don't think this will throw the guy out of the office. Now this is all new to people and they are excited but wait a few weeks for dust to settle down and then we will truly see where we are. You are from the culture and environment where laws and rules are very important while I am not, however Trump and his supporters are evidently more like mine environment than yours. Therefore I claim that the fact he broke some rules doesn't really matter. They have emotional bond and laws can screw themselves, especially if the law was broken in order to go after someone like Biden. For his base this is heroism. My local Mayor piled over 150 scandals over the years and some of them are very serious, but he is serving his 6th term none the less. The guy has his base and that is it, no one really dares to touch into that, especially now when he has a "friend of Russia" medal. Some of the charges were even dropped or ignored because they were dropped and ignored, there was no real legal reason. Therefore I claim that you perhaps see the situation in the wrong light. This is exactly why I said a number of times that Trump is textbook East-European politician in his nature and that means that rules no longer really apply in this new game. Since he knows how to make braking of the rules look cool or even useful to the people.



As I said, we will see.

You really don't appreciate what has happened. There is an impeachment inquiry underway. That is a big fucking deal. It is going to define the election. The dust will not settle on this issue until he is impeached, removed, acquitted or defeated in the election.

And don't give me this bullshit about how my country works as opposed to the US or yours. Pretending I'm judging this by German standards is ridiculous. Unlike you, I don't constantly try to equate events in US politics to how things work in my own country. Hell, I know far less about German politics than about US politics.

 

[Virtual ghost]

Trollolol.


By now, everybody else is a fake Republican. Trump remade the party in his own sordid image.


You really don't appreciate what has happened. There is an impeachment inquiry underway. That is a big fucking deal. It is going to define the election. The dust will not settle on this issue until he is impeached, removed, acquitted or defeated in the election.

And don't give me this bullshit about how my country works as opposed to the US or yours. Pretending I'm judging this by German standards is ridiculous. Unlike you, I don't constantly try to equate events in US politics to how things work in my own country. Hell, I know far less about German politics than about US politics.

You are right I don't appreciate it since I see it as a shoot into nothing, which may even make him stronger. I see that the rule of law is foundation of your approach to this issue and I took the liberty to presume that this is something you got from your "culture", my only intention was to show you that there are alternatives to that and I draw some parallels to back my claims.


Therefore you are right I don't really appreciate it because there are plenty of other arguments that are very very valid in impeaching him and it seem that everything will be focused on a single phone call. You really think that impeaching a president over a phone call is a good strategy ? Also take a look at Trump fans here and what is in the news that is beyond sensationalism. The fans will back the guy with everything they have and the case is a phone call, while most of his party doesn't give a crap about what he said in that call. Especially since they need him to do all kind of things on the local and global level, so they surely will not gamble him away over a phone call in which he went after his big rival. He said America first over and over and that means there are no rules in fighting the globalists and this is exactly what this is. What I am trying to tell you is that you should try to look at this from the opposite side and then you will realize how thin the case actually is. On the other hand you have plenty of very good arguments: conflicts of interest, reputation of the country, climate change, mess at the border, genocide in Yemen, gambling away the traditional alliances ... and many more. How will this effect elections ? The democrats aren't even capable of impeaching this train wreck for years and they have do it through impeachment since there are decent odds they may lose to him again in the direct elections ... and now you are trying to sell me that we are going into some kind of triumph. If we barely win it will be a miracle.



I think I will skip politics until further notice.

 

[Nicodemus]

You are right I don't appreciate it since I see it as a shoot into nothing, which may even make him stronger. I see that the rule of law is foundation of your approach to this issue and I took the liberty to presume that this is something you got from your "culture", my only intention was to show you that there are alternatives to that and I draw some parallels to back my claims.


Therefore you are right I don't really appreciate it because there are plenty of other arguments that are very very valid in impeaching him and it seem that everything will be focused on a single phone call. You really think that impeaching a president over a phone call is a good strategy ? Also take a look at Trump fans here and what is in the news that is beyond sensationalism. The fans will back the guy with everything they have and the case is a phone call, while most of his party doesn't give a crap about what he said in that call. Especially since they need him to do all kind of things on the local and global level, so they surely will not gamble him away over a phone call in which he went after his big rival. He said America first over and over and that means there are no rules in fighting the globalists and this is exactly what this is. What I am trying to tell you is that you should try to look at this from the opposite side and then you will realize how thin the case actually is. On the other hand you have plenty of very good arguments: conflicts of interest, reputation of the country, climate change, mess at the border, genocide in Yemen, gambling away the traditional alliances ... and many more. How will this effect elections ? The democrats aren't even capable of impeaching this train wreck for years and they have do it through impeachment since there are decent odds they may lose to him again in the direct elections ... and now you are trying to sell me that we are going into some kind of triumph. If we barely win it will be a miracle.



I think I will skip politics until further notice.

As usual, you see everything through the prism of your own political culture. There really is no point in continuing this exchange.

 

[Jaguar]

This is definitely something only a skilled sociopath could come up with.

 

[Nicodemus]

Trump impeachment inquiry sparks 'bedlam' at Fox News | Media | The Guardian

It has begun.

 

[ceecee]

lol

Not about a single thing in particular, just a general laughing.

 

[Virtual ghost]

lol

Not about a single thing in particular, just a general laughing.

Exactly.


I had dinner and I the though got to me how all of this will look like if this issue gets to the Senate ? I concluded that this will probably be Jerry Springer show all over again.

 

[The Cat]

 

[Tellenbach]

This whole impeachment nonsense is just a desperate attempt to clear the field because they know creepy Uncle Joe, Crazy Bernie, and Pocahontas can't close the deal. None of these clowns can beat Trump so their only alternative is to impeach him and hope a bunch of never-Trumper rinos in the Senate like Mittens join in.

These donkeys have made a mockery of the Constitution and the impeachment process. They didn't care that Hillary and the DNC colluded with the Russians in fabricating the Steele Dossier which was used as the basis of the Mueller investigation. They didn't care that multiple Dem congress donkeys wrote a letter to the Ukrainians asking them to cooperate with Mueller.

Trump's 2020 campaign slogan should be: Make The Democrats Cry Again (OK, I stole that from a caller to a radio show.)

 

[Z Buck McFate]

It will kill his chance or reelection.

I've been seeing opinion pieces predicting he'll simply lean into this and use it to strengthen his support base by playing a bigtime victim. And I think it's totally feasible. He really could shoot someone in public and find some way to spin being 'the victim' that would strengthen his support base.

On the flip side though, I've seen comments about how most of the GOP senators privately know full well what a colossally demented shithead he is and might finally organize and flip (if there are enough of them willing to do it). I find it highly unlikely, but a girl can dream.

At any rate, I kinda feel like I would have guessed that the proven Russian interference and Trump's lax attitude about it (making such effort to befriend the foreign power that did it, and letting it pass without any incident at all or any urgency to prevent it from happening again) would kill anyone's chance at reelection - but here we are. There are so many things that should have killed his chance at reelection already. So it really just feels like all bets are off in pretty much every direction.

 

[Virtual ghost]

At any rate, I kinda feel like I would have guessed that the proven Russian interference and Trump's lax attitude about it (making such effort to befriend the foreign power that did it, and letting it pass without any incident at all or any urgency to prevent it from happening again) would kill anyone's chance at reelection - but here we are. There are so many things that should have killed his chance at reelection already. So it really just feels like all bets are off in pretty much every direction.

This is exactly on what I was aiming for. If everything is going by the book or logic for that matter this show should have ended years ago. However this isn't happening. The thing is what Trump supporters or GOP in general can gain with throwing him our of the office ? Not much, if anything. Or will the party find better candidate within 6 months that can fire up the base more ? Probably not.


This is why the law will probably be pushed into some back seat and the process ends in the senate. Not to mention that the base could vote out the "unloyal" senators and for them this is certain risk. Now this is all new and there is chaos but the real question is what will be a month from now when this settles a little bit and life goes on. If by then the party and the base are still firmly standing behind Trump the removal will probably fail since you need to flip something like 25 senators. Therefore this can't really happen by chance.

 

[Z Buck McFate]

And I guess - more than average household income numbers - I'm far more interested in hearing about dents being made in income inequality. I don't particularly have the energy or time to look up support to back up what I'm saying, perhaps especially because historically in this forum it's an absolute waste of time to get into specifics about this kind of thing anyway (the people who tend to disagree don't provide particularly cogent responses to it). And it's a bit of a side tangent anyway, since the thread seems to be about discussing whether Trump is legit batshit and if/why that's a problem. Suffice it to say, even if I only focus on what he's done (instead of whether he's batshit), I still think he's destructive.

Backtracking a bit - and splitting from the impeachment tangent - to back this^ up:

U.S. Income Inequality Worsens, Widening To A New Gap

The gap between the richest and the poorest U.S. households is now the largest it's been in the past 50 years — despite the median U.S. income hitting a new record in 2018, according to new data from the U.S. Census Bureau.

U.S. income inequality was "significantly higher" in 2018 than in 2017, the federal agency says in its latest American Community Survey report. The last time a change in the metric was deemed statistically significant was when it grew from 2012-2013.

While many states didn't see a change in income inequality last year, the income gap grew wider in nine states: Alabama, Arkansas, California, Kansas, Nebraska, New Hampshire, New Mexico, Texas and Virginia.​

More than half the states impacted (bolded^) are actually red states. I will probably never understand why.

 

[Jonny]

I would not call New Hampshire and Virginia red states. But I would call Nebraska a red state.

 

[Z Buck McFate]

I would not call New Hampshire and Virginia red states. But I would call Nebraska a red state.

I'm going by cursory searches for this - a few maps show it this way, but I'm making no claims of being partisan map savvy (outside of already knowing about Alabama, Arkansas, Kansas and Texas). Nebraska is shown to be neutral on a few maps, though I'd have guessed it was red.

 

[JocktheMotie]

I doubt impeachment actually goes anywhere. If the GOP had someone else to run in place of Trump that was actually exciting they might have turned on him, but they'll lean in to the Fake News, Deranged Democrats, etc as a way to excite their base, and stick to trying to depress turnout.

The point of impeachment now is basically to keep uncovering all the corruption Trump is a part of and force the GOP house into a vote, and keep Trump's misdeeds and general weakness front and center. As long as the Dems don't nominate Biden I'll be happy.

 

[ceecee]

Backtracking a bit - and splitting from the impeachment tangent - to back this^ up:

U.S. Income Inequality Worsens, Widening To A New Gap

The gap between the richest and the poorest U.S. households is now the largest it's been in the past 50 years — despite the median U.S. income hitting a new record in 2018, according to new data from the U.S. Census Bureau.

U.S. income inequality was "significantly higher" in 2018 than in 2017, the federal agency says in its latest American Community Survey report. The last time a change in the metric was deemed statistically significant was when it grew from 2012-2013.

While many states didn't see a change in income inequality last year, the income gap grew wider in nine states: Alabama, Arkansas, California, Kansas, Nebraska, New Hampshire, New Mexico, Texas and Virginia.​

More than half the states impacted (bolded^) are actually red states. I will probably never understand why.

Guns and abortion. Those things don't get the bills paid for working people but, yanno, the party of limited government should be all about controlling women's bodies and allowing mass murder, apparently.

No none of it makes any sense and voting directly against your economic interest is a sign of serious mental issues.

 

[Virtual ghost]

I doubt impeachment actually goes anywhere. If the GOP had someone else to run in place of Trump that was actually exciting they might have turned on him, but they'll lean in to the Fake News, Deranged Democrats, etc as a way to excite their base, and stick to trying to depress turnout.

The point of impeachment now is basically to keep uncovering all the corruption Trump is a part of and force the GOP house into a vote, and keep Trump's misdeeds and general weakness front and center. As long as the Dems don't nominate Biden I'll be happy.

Exactly. however a person must not forget that 2020 is vital because of Supreme court (from what I understand). So since they don't really have an alternative to Trump they will have to make a gamble with him. I am ready to bet that pretty much entire GOP is ready to eat much of the Trump's shit if they will get the prize of Supreme court. While if they impeach their odds are probably minimal in this regard.


So in the end it all comes down to the 2020 vote.


(ceecee beat me in this point)

 

[Totenkindly]

I doubt impeachment actually goes anywhere. If the GOP had someone else to run in place of Trump that was actually exciting they might have turned on him, but they'll lean in to the Fake News, Deranged Democrats, etc as a way to excite their base, and stick to trying to depress turnout.

The point of impeachment now is basically to keep uncovering all the corruption Trump is a part of and force the GOP house into a vote, and keep Trump's misdeeds and general weakness front and center. As long as the Dems don't nominate Biden I'll be happy.

Realistically, that seems to be all that we can about expect out of this.

It's just weird with all the news of the last four days and the things being dragged out. Could it be different? I don't know. Flake's comments about 38 GOP senators being willing to vote removal if they were allowed to vote in secret doesn't hold much weight for me, since the vote isn't secret and otherwise they've just been kowtowing the entire time publicly. I could be wrong; but it's not courage and Flake isn't exactly the epitome of courage either. It simply makes you wonder how deep the resentments run and whether it would ever make a difference.

Pretty much we just want it all out in the open, documented, and who supported what so it's on the record. So much of this mess seems to be spawned of confusion and obfuscation about facts and occurrences and who said/supported what. So nail it all in place.