I's & E's intimidate each other?

[substitute]

The big wide world isn't even educated enough about introverts and extroverts to make any of it obvious at all. Most people don't have a working understanding of introversion and extroversion anyway. They may know on some level that some people behave this way and some behave that way but that still doesn't stop them from behaving in the patterns they do when one meets the other.

It seems so goddamned ingrained. Can we change it?

Well there's the people I'm interacting with here in this thread, who ARE aware of these differences, and I'm trying to talk about

a) how people here, being aware, relate (or don't) with their E/I opposites whether those other parties are aware of the differences or not
b) how people who are introverts and extroverts but not completely aware of it, might intimidate each other, and theorizing as to various aspects of this
c) whether most people really aren't aware anyway, whether they're into MBTI or not, that they're more of an extraverted type of person or introverted.

The words are in common usage, though not with quite the same specific meanings as in MBTI, and yes i'm sure it can be changed, especially when into one community of X people in the world 'out there' can be inserted one person from here, who is consciously aware of these differences.

1 - how that person could work to improve relations between themselves and others
2 - how they could reduce misunderstandings between others not aware of MBTI, by using their knowledge.

But really, I didn't have an agenda as such, so quit INTJ-ing me!!

 

[substitute]

Athenian - no, of course I'm not trying to argue that E's are better than I's, only talking about how things look/feel from my personal perspective and inviting others to do the same in order to broaden that perspective

But what you say does make perfect sense, though it might surprise you that I often feel the same way with the roles reversed... I've sometimes felt like an introvert has judged me as superficial and shallow just because I'm able to enjoy light conversation with a load of strangers, and nothing I've been able to say or do subsequently has been able to alter that perception.

 

[ring the bell]

I think Introversion vs Extroversion is about as difficult a subject to get the other person to understand as Thinking vs Feeling. It gets a little tiring for me sometimes having people feel the need to pull me out of my shell, as if I must be so sad and lonely because I stayed home and watched a movie on a Friday night or I didn't talk enough at so and so's bday party.

I'm not really intimidated by extroverts. But I do sense they are intimidated by me at times. I pretty much have an attitude of "I'm going to do whatever the fuck I want" most of the time and have no problem dishing that out in a very strong manner if someone comes at me too strongly in their misconstrued perception of what's best for my wellbeing. A lot of my friends over the years have been ENTJ's, who for the most part seemed to respect me and lay off when I stood up and explained this to them.

 

[Haphazard]

But really, I didn't have an agenda as such, so quit INTJ-ing me!!

Pssh. There's an agenda in there. It's just buried. And I will find it.

I have just noticed some of the things you've said. That you are the one who is 'always giving' and that the conditions for an introvert to come out is 'diva-like'.

But introverts don't want anything from you. You giving is your choice. Meeting you partway, as you would like, does not make sense to an introvert because they feel no obligation to connect with you(well, except ISJs, it seems), so it seems strange that they should even bother.

I have never been able to understand why extroverts found introverts so arrogant and cold. Introverts are kind of like deer, rather. They're too easy to spook and jump in front of cars when you least expect it. Like pretty pests. If you really want an introvert to pay attention to you that badly, you're best off getting a hunting rifle.

 

[Athenian200]

Athenian - no, of course I'm not trying to argue that E's are better than I's, only talking about how things look/feel from my personal perspective and inviting others to do the same in order to broaden that perspective

I thought so. Although to be honest, I sometimes wonder if Extraverts are better adjusted in general. The world seems to work better for them in general.

Broadening the perspective with personal experiences? Sounds like a good plan.

But what you say does make perfect sense, though it might surprise you that I often feel the same way with the roles reversed...

That's exactly what I was trying to say... that I feel exactly the same way you described, but with the roles reversed. Interesting, huh? It's like a mirror thing.

 

[runvardh]

They don't intimidate me anymore, but if I'm not interested I use a lot of short neutral phrases. People intelligent enough to pick up on that though tend to either talk about things I'm interested in and may be able to reply to with out having to think much or someone I could care less about offending.

Me being intimidating? Sure, I'm judging about 80% of the words you say and how you say them. I will not approach you because 90% of the people I've tried to approach bite my hand or ignore me when I initiate the conversation (I've asked about the weather and got shot down, like WTF?). Say something interesting and I'll jump at it. 9 times out of 10 I'm spaced out and not noticing anyone, bring be back to earth first before you open your mouth or you will be disappointed. Give me time to construct my answer otherwise you will be disappointed. Don't like it, that's fine; unlike you I don't need to make the acquaintance of the entire room.

 

[nolla]

This is a common misunderstanding and since I've started to understand the root cause of it I've been able to adjust, however I do sometimes wonder why it's always me that has to do the adjusting and wouldn't mind if people made a little effort to meet half way...

I think the case of me meeting half way is to keep the conversation "light". Humor and stuff. The problem comes at play when the extrovert is enthusiastic about what he's saying. I need time to think about it, and this could seem like I'm not interested. And he goes on to try to convince me about his favorite subject.. For these situations I have a whole bunch of sentences like "the way I see it, is this...". After I say something like this, I can think for a moment about how I want to say something, and the extrovert is aware that I am actually going to say something so he doesn't go on talking or change the subject.

The E doesn't know it, but he's making the I feel bombarded and like you describe nolla. But the I doesn't realise that by retreating further and further they're making the E feel like nothing they can do or say is of any interest, that they're seen as contemptible and not worth their time. Without realising it, the I is making the E feel very frustrated and even hurt, because as far as the E is concerned, if someone has something to say then why don't they just say it? And if they don't have anything to say and just don't feel like talking, why not just say that also? Why sit there and let me blabber on, boring you to death??

Yeah, but you see, the I cannot talk if he doesn't think about it for a while. I usually think about what I want to say, but also about how I should say it so that the person I say it to will know exactly what I am saying. This stuff takes time, and I need to take that time if it is important that I get the point across. If it is a light subject, I don't care that much and could talk just to keep conversation going.

It can seem to me like the number of 'requirements' for an introvert to actually speak, the circumstances that they seem to need in which they feel willing to share, open up or just participate at all, seems to sometimes be so specific and almost diva-like, a list of demands that are hard for the E to fulfill or even identify, and if we don't manage to get everything right for them then they just write us off and leave.

It is also about the introvert's attitude. I think the Ne attitude of discussion in me is very different from the Ne-Fi attitude. I do go into this different mode. I'm pretty sure my humor is completely Ne. Intuition is the fastest process, so it is very possible for me to have quick responses, but it has to be subject that I know about a lot, or subjects that don't matter.

 

[colmena]

Annoying: sometimes. Intimidated: no.

 

[runvardh]

By the way, if my talking is required to get business done, I do it. If I see or hear something interesting I work out if I can initialize, and upon seeing that I can, I do it. Basically talking, for me is work; it's not play, it's not refreshing, it's work. If you want me to work you damn well better make it worth while, that's meeting half way.

 

[nolla]

Although to be honest, I sometimes wonder if Extraverts are better adjusted in general.

Of course they are. If their name wasn't extrovert, it would be adjuster. Their attitude to the world is to see what there is and adjust, while introverts are self-preservers.

 

[Haphazard]

Of course they are. If their name wasn't extrovert, it would be adjuster. Their attitude to the world is to see what there is and adjust, while introverts are self-preservers.

If this is the case, then why do introverts exist?

Genetic glitch?

 

[nolla]

It is to have a certain amount of continuity or momentum, if you ask me. If everyone was adjusting, cultures would die very very fast.

 

[substitute]

I have just noticed some of the things you've said. That you are the one who is 'always giving' and that the conditions for an introvert to come out is 'diva-like'.

Ah now wait a minute, I said that's how it FEELS to me, not that's how it IS, and the whole point of this thread is to figure out whether those feelings are 'just me', to encourage others to talk about their similar notions and clarify where they're in error. It's like you're determined to portray me as having an agenda of proving E's to be great and I's to smell of poop. But it's just not like that!!!

But introverts don't want anything from you. You giving is your choice. Meeting you partway, as you would like, does not make sense to an introvert because they feel no obligation to connect with you(well, except ISJs, it seems), so it seems strange that they should even bother.

I have never been able to understand why extroverts found introverts so arrogant and cold.

I pretty much have an attitude of "I'm going to do whatever the fuck I want" most of the time and have no problem dishing that out in a very strong manner...

But can you see how that contributes to the image of selfishness and arrogance? I don't want anything from you so fuck off? I don't care whether you need anything from me, I don't want to bother with you so fuck off and tough shit? That's quite an alien viewpoint to me... I mean whether you feel like talking or not there's such a thing as manners...

I'm no stranger to the idea of someone trying to force me to talk when I don't want to, but I'd figure it was only courtesy to keep a person informed verbally and also to assume at first, give them the benefit of the doubt, that they're not actually meaning to irritate me but are doing so out of some misguideed idea or other. So does it really hurt to just say "I'm sorry I don't mean to ignore you, I'm just really not in the mood for X right now, I guess I'm just a bit tired, mind if I just read to myself for a bit?" And I'd be like oh yeah sure, sorry, no problem.

Surely that's better than just rebutting someone's friendliness with signals that all seem to the E to say "get lost you idiot, I don't need you!"

 

[substitute]

It is to have a certain amount of continuity or momentum, if you ask me. If everyone was adjusting, cultures would die very very fast.

Actually I tend to see it the opposite way: cultures develop and evolve and are constantly refreshed by people gradually adjusting and adapting to new circumstances and knowledge.

But I wouldn't say it was the default attitude of the ESxJ to adjust... lol

 

[nolla]

Actually I tend to see it the opposite way: cultures develop and evolve and are constantly refreshed by people gradually adjusting and adapting to new circumstances and knowledge.

No, that is not opposite. We are talking about same thing here. The I is there to keep the important parts of the "old" culture and E is to find new important parts through adjustment.

EDIT: Oh, I should have said "Without I the cultures would evolve very very fast" What I am trying to say is that the cultures need continuity for a reason. I'm sure they should not evolve as fast as an all extrovert population would.

 

[substitute]

nolla - the way you talk about your experiences sounds quite familiar, it's similar to the way myself and my close INFP friend interact, although sometimes she can be hard work or I thought so to start with, over the years we've adjusted to each other and I'm now aware that I shouldn't take it personally if she's just not in a talking mood and she's also learned how to tell me she's not in the mood rather than just sit and stare, when she used to do that it made me feel like I must've just said something really wrong or stupid lol

I can usually tell the difference though between someone who genuinely just doesn't want to talk and is happy sitting slightly aside, and someone who actually does want to participate but doesn't know how to make the first move, as it were, to join in. I can tell when someone's sitting there with their head full of things they want to say and thoughts they want to communicate but they just don't know how to jump in.

If it's the first case I am quite happy to leave them be, if it's the second case, I try to help them get to say what they think. And then they're often surprised when they find that the group does listen and understand what they say!

edit - but are you sure you're not confusing I/E with NP/SJ?

 

[Haphazard]

Ah now wait a minute, I said that's how it FEELS to me, not that's how it IS, and the whole point of this thread is to figure out whether those feelings are 'just me', to encourage others to talk about their similar notions and clarify where they're in error. It's like you're determined to portray me as having an agenda of proving E's to be great and I's to smell of poop. But it's just not like that!!!

I can just smell the bias coming off of you. The problem is that the vast majority of extraverts think this way and believe this is what is rather than an opinion. And this is why those extraverts smell of poop.

But can you see how that contributes to the image of selfishness and arrogance? I don't want anything from you so fuck off? I don't care whether you need anything from me, I don't want to bother with you so fuck off and tough shit? That's quite an alien viewpoint to me... I mean whether you feel like talking or not there's such a thing as manners...

I am selfish and arrogant, but this has nothing to do with my introversion. I'm also terribly immature so the only tool I have at my disposal to seem polite is restraint. My manners involve biting my tongue so that I don't say anything that will get me into trouble. My silence is me trying to be polite, but somehow it's construed as rudeness of the highest order!

I'm no stranger to the idea of someone trying to force me to talk when I don't want to, but I'd figure it was only courtesy to keep a person informed verbally and also to assume at first, give them the benefit of the doubt, that they're not actually meaning to irritate me but are doing so out of some misguideed idea or other. So does it really hurt to just say "I'm sorry I don't mean to ignore you, I'm just really not in the mood for X right now, I guess I'm just a bit tired, mind if I just read to myself for a bit?" And I'd be like oh yeah sure, sorry, no problem.

Surely that's better than just rebutting someone's friendliness with signals that all seem to the E to say "get lost you idiot, I don't need you!"

I have an edge to my voice that somehow I cannot control. If I say anything, it will automatically be construed as mood because of the tone. Therefore I shut up. My body language and reputation usually preceeds me, whether I like it to or not.

With extroverts who think this way automatically and have no desire to think beyond these thoughts, well... my life becomes impossible.

The question is, is it better to keep one's mouth shut and be thought an asshole, than to open one's mouth and remove all doubt?

 

[runvardh]

But can you see how that contributes to the image of selfishness and arrogance? I don't want anything from you so fuck off? I don't care whether you need anything from me, I don't want to bother with you so fuck off and tough shit? That's quite an alien viewpoint to me... I mean whether you feel like talking or not there's such a thing as manners...

See my second post

I'm no stranger to the idea of someone trying to force me to talk when I don't want to, but I'd figure it was only courtesy to keep a person informed verbally and also to assume at first, give them the benefit of the doubt, that they're not actually meaning to irritate me but are doing so out of some misguideed idea or other. So does it really hurt to just say "I'm sorry I don't mean to ignore you, I'm just really not in the mood for X right now, I guess I'm just a bit tired, mind if I just read to myself for a bit?" And I'd be like oh yeah sure, sorry, no problem.

I actually do this, but mostly for people I know or perceive as someone I'd like to deal with when I have the energy.

Surely that's better than just rebutting someone's friendliness with signals that all seem to the E to say "get lost you idiot, I don't need you!"

There are times when I actually do feel that way and want to send that signal.

 

[substitute]

I can just smell the bias coming off of you. The problem is that the vast majority of extraverts think this way and believe this is what is rather than an opinion. And this is why those extraverts smell of poop.

LOL well I never claimed that I wasn't starting from a point of bias, of course everyone starts from a point biased by their own experiences. But I am not only acknowledging that my experience is not exhaustive or comprehensive but also trying REALLY HARD to put that aside and be open and see the other side and hoping others will do the same. An awful lot of introverts, too, behave as the bolded part of what you said describes.

I am selfish and arrogant, but this has nothing to do with my introversion.

Well I'm glad we can see eye to eye on that, I'm also selfish and arrogant but I'm not even introverted

I'm also terribly immature so the only tool I have at my disposal to seem polite is restraint. My manners involve biting my tongue so that I don't say anything that will get me into trouble. My silence is me trying to be polite, but somehow it's construed as rudeness of the highest order!

OK well that was actually very revealing, I appreciate that. That's again though, not a position unique to introverts. I often spend long periods biting my tongue. But usually it's when a person is actually being a real ass and I just don't want to cause trouble for the sake of other, decent people who are present. It's not because I'm not capable of thinking pleasant thoughts about a person that can be expressed lol

I have an edge to my voice that somehow I cannot control. If I say anything, it will automatically be construed as mood because of the tone. Therefore I shut up. My body language and reputation usually preceeds me, whether I like it to or not.

Ah, now this I relate to a lot. It used to be the same way with me ALL the time, and even to this day sometimes I find myself strangely fully aware that I'm giving off some vibe that isn't what I actually feel, and it makes people dislike me. It's usually only with hindsight that I realise I was being defensive because I was nervous for some reason.

With extroverts who think this way automatically and have no desire to think beyond these thoughts, well... my life becomes impossible.

Yes, that's frustrating I know. But just as you can say your immaturity and arrogance isn't to do with introversion, I can say that bigotry and narrow mindedness are by no means a natural or inevitable by-product of extraversion!

There are times when I actually do feel that way and want to send that signal.

Me too. Those times are pretty rare though... I mean if you were a person who by default resents, begrudges and hates most interaction that you ever have with human beings, I think it'd be safe to say you were the problem, not the people or what they were doing lol

That's exactly what I was trying to say... that I feel exactly the same way you described, but with the roles reversed. Interesting, huh? It's like a mirror thing.

EXACTLY. That's what I was thinking, which made me start the thread. I want to explore both sides of the mirror and see if they can't be reconciled, since I start from a default point of assuming that people aren't being annoying on purpose!

 

[Giggly]

Substitute, you should only settle for graciousness when you make the effort to reach out to someone. You deserve no less.