What is the hardest thing about being a man?

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

Being invisible

 

[Peter Deadpan]

Being invisible

This made me sad.

 

[Qlip]

What's hardest is what's hardest about inhabiting any role-based position in life, somebody/the universe tries to shoehorn you into a whole host of responsibilities that you don't necessarily have a desire or predilection for. For me it was being a titular patriarchal head of household, that shit's tough and a person should never just drift into it. But it seems society pushes most men there with stick and carrot.

 

[anticlimatic]

Being ultimately responsible for getting most of the big things done. Also liable for those things. Particularly the difficult and dangerous ones. Cost of power.

"I spent my whole life trying not to be careless. Women and children can be careless, but not men." -Vito Corleone

 

[Coriolis]

Being ultimately responsible for getting most of the big things done. Also liable for those things. Particularly the difficult and dangerous ones. Cost of power.

"I spent my whole life trying not to be careless. Women and children can be careless, but not men." -Vito Corleone

I could easily say the same thing, but then that's adulthood for you. As your Corleone quote suggests, that, then, is the question. Do we treat women as adults, and expect them to shoulder their share of life's responsibilities, or do we treat them as children, and expect them to abdicate their share?

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

default expectation of checking those bumps in the night. First to die in most horror movies about nuclear families. Being the one who stays behind on the sinking ship to make room for more valuable people on the life boat. Having the aforementioned expectation taken for granted and/or minimalized by people who think they're egalitarian-minded.

 

[Lark]

default expectation of checking those bumps in the night. First to die in most horror movies about nuclear families. Being the one who stays behind on the sinking ship to make room for more valuable people on the life boat. Having the aforementioned expectation taken for granted and/or minimalized by people who think they're egalitarian-minded.

What do you think the likelihood is of any of that happening to you?

If its just the movies which bother you you're always free to shut the set off I guess.

 

[anticlimatic]

I could easily say the same thing, but then that's adulthood for you. As your Corleone quote suggests, that, then, is the question. Do we treat women as adults, and expect them to shoulder their share of life's responsibilities, or do we treat them as children, and expect them to abdicate their share?

I treat women how they prefer to be treated, not how I prefer to treat them. And (go figure), most women prefer tasks that do not require physical strength- like wielding power tools they barely have the upper body strength to even pick up- or tasks that are large in scope requiring constant focus (distractable things), or tasks that are physically dangerous (consequence of the physical strength deficiency), or tasks that are gross or creepy (like crawling under a house to run wire or pipes with the spiders and dead animals). These are all things predicated on biology, not social engineering. So there's really nothing to be done about it, I'm sorry to have to tell you. At my gym there is this girl I've become friends with who has been lifting for years- she is ripped from head to toe- but me, having only been going there for a few months and still on the relative weak end of the male spectrum, still out lifts her in every category.

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

I treat women how they prefer to be treated, not how I prefer to treat them. And (go figure), most women prefer tasks that do not require physical strength- like wielding power tools they barely have the upper body strength to even pick up- or tasks that are large in scope requiring constant focus (distractable things), or tasks that are physically dangerous (consequence of the physical strength deficiency), or tasks that are gross or creepy (like crawling under a house to run wire or pipes with the spiders and dead animals). These are all things predicated on biology, not social engineering. So there's really nothing to be done about it, I'm sorry to have to tell you. At my gym there is this girl I've become friends with who has been lifting for years- she is ripped from head to toe- but me, having only been going there for a few months and still on the relative weak end of the male spectrum, still out lifts her in every category.

The bolded is arguably just blank slate cultural conditioning. Regarding the strength issue and other supposed deficiencies, women shouldn't despair. On average, they're more flexible, more agile, more nimble than men, which can be an advantage in some situations. They tend to have smaller hands and so this actually makes them better suited for certain mechanical tasks, particularly where a surgeon's touch is preferable to blunt force and brute strength. I've also seen it argued they're better suited for certain military jobs such as pilot, sniper, etc. They're on average better at verbal skills than men (who are on average better at spatial reasoning). I could name more, but the point here is it balances out. Yin and Yang. This is not something I think society should downplay or turn into a negative to be conditioned out of the species. At the same time, I'm not saying men or women shouldn't do certain things. Have at it, more power to you if you want to pursue activities or if you possess traits that are more characteristic of the opposite sex. No crime there.

I second your approach, I treat women how they wish to be treated, not based on how I think they should be treated, so I'd be perplexed if I was accused of treating women based on some traditionalist view I supposedly have regarding gender roles; more often than not I find it's women who seem to want to reinforce those roles, at least in my own experience, and I can't really blame them for wanting to keep some of those perks. However, my default approach is assume no one wants to be coddled or pampered or pedestalized.

Your gym anecdote reminded me of a funny story, there's a co-worker at my job who is ex-military. She could probably kick my ass, isn't what I'd consider traditionally "girly" and yet whenever there's a bug in her cubicle, guess who she calls to deal with it? I'm not talking just spiders, pretty much every type of bug, even small, harmless beetles. This is by no means the hardest thing about being a man though, I have no issue with carrying bugs outside.

 

[anticlimatic]

The bolded is arguably just blank slate cultural conditioning. Regarding the strength issue and other supposed deficiencies, women shouldn't despair. On average, they're more flexible, more agile, more nimble than men, which can be an advantage in some situations. They tend to have smaller hands and so this actually makes them better suited for certain mechanical tasks, particularly where a surgeon's touch is preferable to blunt force and brute strength. I've also seen it argued they're better suited for certain military jobs such as pilot, sniper, etc. They're on average better at verbal skills than men (who are on average better at spatial reasoning). I could name more, but the point here is it balances out. Yin and Yang. This is not something I think society should downplay or turn into a negative to be conditioned out of the species. At the same time, I'm not saying men or women shouldn't do certain things. Have at it, more power to you if you want to pursue activities or if you possess traits that are more characteristic of the opposite sex. No crime there.

I find it interesting that most people who talk about celebrating diversity seldom care to celebrate the inherit biological diversity between the sexes (as you've just done).

I'm just not sure I believe in this concept of social conditioning at all. I see the logic behind it, the reasoning is tempting, but I just can't help but theorize that it's kabuki. A word for the identification of something real in a cerebral and logical sense, but not actually something tangible, visceral, or...for lack of a better term, mechanical. It seems like a backwards observation; a reflective afterthought, not something that actually drives anything forwards. Kids know who they are and what they want all on their own, no external influence necessary. If you try to force a kid who is mechanically inclined to play with dolls, all they will do is rig an apparatus to launch them into the air- and if you try to force a kid who is socially inclined to play with legos, they will just build things that look like people or animals out of them (witnessed both of these events). If you tell a teenager to do anything, they will do the opposite by nature, but if you tell a young adult he or she can't do something they clearly want to do because of their gender, and they ignore their instincts and just do what the person tells them to do, is that really a 'social conditioning' problem? Or is it a personal problem regarding a lack of assertion and self respect?

I'm not saying I actively believe social conditioning does not exist, but as of yet I have not been sufficiently compelled to buy its existence on any meaningful level. My understanding of human nature is derived from tiny distinctive biological presets and one particular principal that I feel probably has a name, but it's something I discovered on my own so I'm not completely sure- I'll go ahead and call it the 'strength bias principal,' in which we first and foremost, in every possible instance, engage any situation with our strongest and most effective utility first. It can be a particular physical muscle group, or a particular systematic approach to troubleshoot something psychologically, a natural talent, etc. It's something we share with all living creatures I think. We specialize; and as a consequence, those specialties just grow stronger and stronger and stronger over the course of our lives. The 'well roundedness' approach to academia flies in the face of natural order (something I've always loathed about it), and in my opinion it completely destroys any sense of a 'social conditioning blank slate.'

 

[Jaguar]

Sounds like a twit.

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

Sounds like a twit.

Takes one to know one

 

[Mole]

Men are less resilient than women, from the moment of birth to old age, where women live longer. Also men have a weaker immune system than women.

 

[Peter Deadpan]

Let's stick to the topic.

 

[tinker683]

I have been deeply wounded by men. There were a couple times that I wasn't sure I was going to live through the pain. But I did, and when faced with the decision to either turn against and hate men, or turn toward and love them, I somehow chose the latter.

I want to know: What are the hardest issues you face as a man? If you can, I'd really love you to dig deep here and get really honest. You can always PM me if that is more comfortable for you.

There will be zero tolerance for trolling in this thread as I want this to be a non-threatening place to open up and discuss. If you're not mature enough to handle this, move along.

The entirely self-created prison we have put ourselves in socially in terms of what constitutes "being a man"

Aside from that, it's a sweet gig

 

[Obfuscate]

i thought a little bit about this at work today... i kept circling the idea that what i find difficult is likely a product of who i am on such a core level that it can be hard to determine if my gender is an underlying cause or merely a piece of what constitutes "me"... with that said, i'll take a swing at this... the core problem i came back to was that being male seems to be somewhat isolating... i don't think that problem is unique to masculinity, and that our present society is pretty isolating for everyone... anyhow, i feel like there is a significant level of pressure on men to be self contained and self sufficient... scratch that... i can take it a step further and say that there is pressure to not only maintain one's self, but also to serve as a reliable resource which others can draw upon emotionally and financially... *thinks* i feel that some women desire emotional vulnerability, but react negatively if it is revealed... it creates a bit of a minefield, and i am never really certain if i am comfortable doing that... i feel as if there are expectations to be able to solve problems, keep calm/collected, address threats, and to be stronger both mentally and physically... due to these factors, it can be hard to reveal uncertainty... you just have to fake competency until it is achieved... i also find that many women assume i just want to fuck them until proven differently... i recall when i was in maybe the eigth grade an occasion that illustrates what i am getting at... we were on a week long class trip to the state capitol, and we had stopped to go swimming... one of my friends (i still hang out with her) was crying about something or other... so i swam over to her and sat on the rope that divided the shallow and deep portions of the pool... i had been talking to her for less than five minutes when one of the other girls swam over to talk to her also... she asked me to leave because she was worried i would stare at her or something... there i was, minding my own buisness and concerned with my friend... i could have gave two shits less about that other girl... if anything i was annoyed to be interrupted... anyhow, there are many manifestations of this attitude, and not all of them are verbal... it is draining to run into this bullshit... women who feel they are so irresistable that they react to any male they are uninterested in with thinly veiled disdain... women that expect special treatment because i must think with my cock by default... whatever that attitude is that i am skirting around gets under my skin in a foul way... anyhow, i never initiate converations with women these days... the odds of being treated poorly feel too high to bother with... so, once again i land on isolating... i know there are plenty of "decent" folks out there, but i am too worn out to sort them... which brings me to what i think of as a catch 22... i feel that men are expected to be the ones who persue... i feel like it is my job to wade through this bullshit to find a partner, but if i take steps to do so i am likely to be treated like a shallow prick... like i said when i started, maybe all of this has more to do with who i am than what gender i am... all i know is that thinking about things like this upsets me... i am not sure if i am more angry, sad, or self critical about it... anyhow, i hope that is of some sort of use to you... i need to do something else, and get my mind off of this...

 

[Radio Bob]

[MENTION=29287]Obfuscate[/MENTION]

Funny you should say this. In today's world and the land mines associated with associations between genders, words once shared by my Father seem to ring true, even though he shared them in the early 1970s. One day we were enjoying working on a car together and I had just turned 18. He said to me, "Congratulations on becoming what the State considers to be the first step in Manhood. Continue to make me proud, and follow my journey into loneliness as you age and gain wisdom of the world". I didn't understand it then, but it has since come to me.

I have come to think that many begin this journey and I am reminded of the opening chapter of the book, "The Four Agreements" by Miguel Ruiz all too often these days.

 

[Virtual ghost]

For me it is more of a "It is annoying" rather than "It is hard".


1. You should die for your country, no questions asked.
2. You are likely to be perceived as a potential maniac even if there is no basis for this.
3. Many people and especially unhealthy women will try to trigger shame in you.
4. Being openly very decisive is often defined as scary.
5. People in most cases don't want to connect too closely to you.

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

For me it is more of a "It is annoying" rather than "It is hard".


1. You should die for your country, no questions asked.
2. You are likely to be perceived as a potential maniac even if there is no basis for this.
3. Many people and especially unhealthy women will try to trigger shame in you.
4. Being openly very decisive is often defined as scary.
5. People in most cases don't want to connect too closely to you.

Being assertive can also be seen by some as being "aggressive."

I suppose the flip for women is being seen as "bossy."

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

Also, what [MENTION=29287]Obfuscate[/MENTION] said about it being assumed we only want sex or that this is somehow our default state. As much as I love Chris Rock, I think he's wrong when he jokes about men asking for sex all the time via chivalrous actions like holding doors open, although it's certainly true in some cases and usually glaringly obvious to other men when a guy is "simping" for women or playing the gentleman angle to gain sexual favor.

When people lament "nice guy syndrome" I find it frustrating when things like "stop feeling entitled to sex" are spouted in an attempt to shame or dismiss those lamentations. More often than people realize, a lot of men do in fact look for more than just sex in seeking relationships with women, and lamenting their inability to have relationships with women isn't always founded solely in sexual frustration, there's other things they may feel they're missing out on.