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Toxic Feminism

When you think "feminism", what do you think of?


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EcK

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You make a good point. Emotion informs all individuals, no matter how logically sound their arguments and thinking. From a typological perspective this is also true, though many thinkers might be less aware of or in touch with their emotions, but emotions are still playing an influence

The thing about that is that "feelers" can do logic too. There s no real reason to assume that thinkers are somewhat "handicaped" emotionally. Thinkers by definition do not act upon or prefer to act upon emotions as much as feelers. That doesn't mean they are not "aware" or "in touch" just that they don't find it to be a good decision making process.
 

Kingu Kurimuzon

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The thing about that is that "feelers" can do logic too. There s no real reason to assume that thinkers are somewhat "handicaped" emotionally. Thinkers by definition do not act upon or prefer to act upon emotions as much as feelers. That doesn't mean they are not "aware" or "in touch" just that they don't find it to be a good decision making process.

No, you're right. I didn't really convey the point I was trying to make all that well.
 

anticlimatic

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Just a little note - That particular quote doesnt have a logical inconsistency. It makes perfect sense for her to say something like that if you think about it.
I agree. That quote was pulled way out of context from months ago- I vaguely recall wanting to express ironic amusement. It wasn't a dig on feminists.
 

Starry

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Really would be conducive to discussions like this if being emotional about something wasnt thrown around like an insult - there is no harm in that as long as one is aware if it. Its vilification however leads to people convincing themselves they are beyond such a thing and using it - often ironically - in an emotional eay to shut others up and discredit them instead of actually discussing the issues at hand :shrug:

The whole 'being emotional' thing suffers from the same thing the word 'feminism' does - ot's become this taboo thing that no longer is allowed to be what it is, causing dissonanse between the different warring factions that would harness the power of its definition- the definiton they choosenit togave- for their own gain, ironically often due to fear and other emotions motivating them.

And then we get into this yes/no bickering match instead of a proper acknowledgement and encompassing discussion of the actual topic, getting us effectively nowhere :shrug:

All because of 'im right/you're wrong' bullshit that is about as subconsciously driven by self-preservational fear and power-seeking from both sides as it comes.


There would be a certain kind of symmetric beauty to it if it wasnt' so mindbogglingly frustrating, futile and harmful to go through/observe. The idea of a rat running in its wheel comes to mind.


I agree with you...more than I would imagine you would imagine (I have posted a handful of times on how life expectancy is significantly higher in nations that have been identified and classified as "emotionally expressive and confrontational" nations (which is why I do struggle when people try to immediately shut-down confrontation as if all confrontation is unhealthy, unproductive and hostile).

Not everyone learns the same though. And for every lesson there will be multiple ways to teach it.
 

Mole

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"Democratic" socialism is no different because like other forms of socialism all sovergnty is allocated towards a single entity. When this happens you have corruption of power. It's just a rebranding of socialism to give the impression that it's moral for someone to take resources away from you for a the common "Good" which is ultimately toltalitarian.

Actually democratic socialism is part of liberal democracy, and liberal democracy is based on the limitation of power, in part by the Separation of Powers. So democratic socialism is also firmly based of the limitation of power. And democratic socialism is not the slightest bit totalitarian. So democratic socialism sounds like National Socialism or International Communism but is a different animal altogether. Confusing them seems to be sloppy thinking, or deliberately malign.
 

Mole

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An ideology is:

1. pre-digested thought

2. serves interests

3. has a demonology

So is feminism an ideology?
 

jixmixfix

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Actually democratic socialism is part of liberal democracy, and liberal democracy is based on the limitation of power, in part by the Separation of Powers. So democratic socialism is also firmly based of the limitation of power. And democratic socialism is not the slightest bit totalitarian. So democratic socialism sounds like National Socialism or International Communism but is a different animal altogether. Confusing them seems to be sloppy thinking, or deliberately malign.
It's different because how? how are you going to seperate s power if all power is being centralized? you haven't explained anything. There are no righrs accociated with democratic socialism. If the will of the people decide you are a wrong thinker they can easily destroy you and take your property etc. In essence its totalitarian like socialism.

- - - Updated - - -

An ideology is: 1. pre-digested thought 2. serves interests 3. has a demonology So is feminism an ideology?
yes. lol
 

Kingu Kurimuzon

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I'm not sure that was directed at me, but the whole schtick about not jumping on the feminist bandwagon because some feminist rejected you for being the subhuman nonfeminist that you are is pretty tired. It's a cheap and easy way to uphold beliefs that are under attack.

Yes, it's a form of ad hominem fallacy. It's weak and lazy and people who use it seem to be a bit narcissistic and lacking in empathy. And cigars, apparently.

Another argument I get tired of seeing is "equality feels like oppression to anti-feminists because they're so used to being the privileged class" or some variant of that argument, and arguments implying that people who disagree with or take issue with feminist theory do so because they want to "keep women barefoot in the kitchen." As if feminism holds a monopoly on egalitarian worldviews and anyone taking issue with it couldn't possibly believe in an egalitarian approach. Again, complete solipsistic lack of empathy.

Then you have to spend so much time defending against those arguments when they're attacking a position you don't hold, at least in my experience, that articulating why you actually disagree with feminism becomes tedious and futile.

It's a pattern I see repeatedly in these types of discussions.
 

Kingu Kurimuzon

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An ideology is:

1. pre-digested thought

2. serves interests

3. has a demonology

So is feminism an ideology?

It depends. Are you referring to the dictionary definition or the body of dogma (i.e. patriarchy theory, intersectionality, et al)?
 

Kingu Kurimuzon

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Are feminism and meritocracy mutually exclusive approaches or can they co-exist?

I'm wary of quota-based hiring, selection, lending, grants, etc, as I think they treat symptoms but not necessarily root causes of problems of social inequalities. Curious how feminists and non feminists think about this issue.
 

anticlimatic

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Yes, it's a form of ad hominem fallacy. It's weak and lazy and people who use it seem to be a bit narcissistic and lacking in empathy. And cigars, apparently. Another argument I get tired of seeing is "equality feels like oppression to anti-feminists because they're so used to being the privileged class" or some variant of that argument, and arguments implying that people who disagree with or take issue with feminist theory do so because they want to "keep women barefoot in the kitchen." As if feminism holds a monopoly on egalitarian worldviews and anyone taking issue with it couldn't possibly believe in an egalitarian approach. Again, complete solipsistic lack of empathy. Because then you have to spend so much time defending against those arguments when they're attacking a position you don't hold, at least in my experience.
I think it's a smoke grenade unconsciously designed to defend otherwise indefensible aspects of the ideology; keep the fight elsewhere so it never arrives at the doorstep. There is just something about feminism, like other ideologies but somehow extra exemplified and concentrated, that refuses any kind of internal analysis or constructive criticism. I don't know if it's because most of the members of the third wave are millenials who believe adversity and competition are inherently evil, or if people have sacrificed too much of their own identity and individuality for the sake of it- to the effect that an attack or critique on feminism becomes an attack or critique of their very cores- but I have never seen a group react so strongly or absurdly towards outside opinions than feminists. The gal I dated would get violently upset and physically ill if I ever brought up anything political- her own body literally would not allow her to consider it in any kind of objective terms. It was sewn onto her soul. Outside of that we had tons of mutual respect and common interests, it just always struck me as very odd- and probably unhealthy. I've always identified as a conservative, but never social-dogmatically- when the later years of the bush admin went off the rails with all the Toby Keith team America fuck yeah nonsense I vehemently critiqued and disowned them. I feel like most feminists should have done the same with most of the more ridiculous 3rd wave shenanigans, but it never happened, so the price they are now paying for that is having their legitimate concerns bound to the illegitimate ones. By not policing their own they've left themselves far more vulnerable to external threats.
 

Coriolis

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Are feminism and meritocracy mutually exclusive approaches or can they co-exist?

I'm wary of quota-based hiring, selection, lending, grants, etc, as I think they treat symptoms but not necessarily root causes of problems of social inequalities. Curious how feminists and non feminists think about this issue.
I have explained my views on quotas elsewhere. You are correct that they are usually employed to address symptoms when we really need to be addressing root causes. Feminism (and other forms of anti-bigotry) go hand-in-hand with meritocracy in that they ask that women, or blacks, gays, or whoever else, be judged on their actual merits and not excluded or made to go through more hoops because of the group they belong to. This breaks down in situations where members of certain groups do not have the same opportunity as others to develop the skills and knowledge necessary to compete for positions based on merit.
 

EcK

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I'm not sure that was directed at me, but the whole schtick about not jumping on the feminist bandwagon because some feminist rejected you for being the subhuman nonfeminist that you are is pretty tired. It's a cheap and easy way to uphold beliefs that are under attack.

You're right. We should tell all these people who died under communism that though modern feminism is essentially the same thing they should forget about these few hundred million dead and broken families because it has a new name now, totally different animal, not at all cultural marxism. The fact that it's essentially communism with 'proletariat' replaced by 'woman', 'capitalist' replaced by 'man' and 'capitalism' replaced by 'patriarchy' is irrelevant.

So all in all it's not at all stupid or downright evil to be a 3rd wave feminism, no. Just like these poor workers in Russia were not evil for sending all these Kulaks to die on frozen plains just because they were more hard working and productive farmers than they were, resulting in millions dead of starvation.
 

Starry

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I've got to get my hands on some demographics for MRA or anti-feminists. I'll make it a point but in the meanwhile any predictions?
 

jixmixfix

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Thanks for the response [MENTION=7278]jixmixfix[/MENTION]




^^I had to sit with this for quite a while in order to see it from the perspective of all the men that share (what I understand of) your ideology.

Not sure I would call it an "ideology" and which ideology are you referring to? men's rights activism? libertarianism? traditionalism? facts, reason, evidence are the things that push my thinking in one direction or the other.

And I really had to bend and twist just to catch that glimpse as your account of the history in this regard flies counter to my understanding...not once or twice...but literally at every turn. These histories...Women and Politics/Military are resistant to alteration as we have so much on record...52 years worth from Petition to Amendment of yays and nays and official statements on suffrage alone from our political leaders of the time... And while *value* is surely a relative concept..."intellectually incapable of being a full citizen...inferior to men...irrational...useless in a crisis/outside of the home" are not part of what immediately comes into my mind (obviously not all Congressmen went on record saying such things...and there was in fact a member of the British Parliament that did make mention of some sort of elevated, mythical status of women in his argument for why they needed to be protected and not part of the military.)

it's not mythical and it spans far longer than 52 years. Women are different than men, physically, mentally and emotionally. It's part of human evolution and sexual dymporhism. However many cannot come to grips with these facts because they have be taught and brainwashed from an early age to believe that men and women are equal in all ways. Feminism has taught us that if men and women differ in a certain skill set, career choice, life choice, income etc than it must be a result of sexism because men and women are equal to another. However than premise is false and you don't have to look hard to see the reaction of some of these people. James Damore who graduated with a masters in biology wrote a memo to google about the biological differences between men and women. He was fired from google almost immediately and set out as an outcast.

Still, I forget myself...having fallen victim to the assumption that what I value is shared by most. And I needed you to help snap me out of that. Perhaps even today... a women that is not "intellectually capable of being a full citizen" is perceived as having more value.
Women have reproductive value and has always had this since the beginning of species. This is due to women only being able to carry a child every 9 months or so which means in the early human days she must have to be protected from danger. She was also physically immobile during those nine months and would choose the strongest mate to fetch her resources to give to her and her children. This is the dynamic between men and women that have been going on for centuries. Men are far more disposible by nature and society views men as so.

((And I'm not trying to be shitty with what I wrote above but rather realistic. Your "treated like they have a higher value"...will actually be my "treated like a worthless idiot" you see? I will say though that Feminists should not be blamed for the inequality surrounding the draft...as it was/is feminists that fought like hell merely to be allowed to voluntarily enlist. Not being included in the draft is evidence of the inequality which...to some people's apparent surprise (?)...feminism is attempting to eradicate. Of feminists there are two schools of thought... Feminists that insist women should be part of the draft. And Feminists that insist no one...male or female...should be drafted. Any man or woman that says 'men should be drafted but due to their higher value women should not' <-is not a feminist.))
Liberals for some reason are completely blind of the value of responsibility they fail to see that having status as a manager, CEO, President, police officer means that there are rules and hierarchy that should be followed. When those Hierarchies are dismantled there is no structure chaos, poverty, and death emerge in order to ultimately bring those hierarchies back. This is why all cultures across the world are fundamentally conservative in nature not liberal. Women did not have the responsibility of the draft because men due to their disposable nature were perceived by society as caretakers of their women. This means that women were exempt from danger however as a trade off for being protected were not granted the same rights as men. In short you cannot have rights unless you carry a certain level of responsibility. The right to vote was tied to the responsibility of the draft.




^^This I'm not sure of but I don't claim to be an expert on all things and am currently suspending judgment.


Let's say you are right though...what needs to be done about it in your opinion? I mean, there are transitions with extremely painful growing pains...and then there are runaway trains headed for disaster.

You and a small handful of emotional men on this forum keep squealing that we are headed for disaster but not once have I seen meaningful commentary on what it is that needs to be done. And so I keep asking...


What needs to be done? What role should women play in the doing?

You can take away women's privileges that were never earned. Restructure the laws so that those who pay into the system (man or woman) through taxes are able to vote for what they able to do with that money. So say you are a women working at a college as a professor and pay 30G a year of taxes into the system I see no reason why you shouldn't have the ability to vote the same as a man.
 

Coriolis

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Not sure I would call it an "ideology" and which ideology are you referring to? men's rights activism? libertarianism? traditionalism? facts, reason, evidence are the things that push my thinking in one direction or the other.
Really? This looks like the same baseless hogwash you usually spout on this topic. No point in trying to correct your misconceptions - you are far too wedded to them. To recap for anyone new in town:

  • men and women are far more alike than different
  • gender-based differences are statistical, not individual
  • equality is not the same as identity/being identical
  • women have have done significant manual labor throughout pregnancy during most of human history; those who could not, often did not live to reproduce again
  • women have always faced the danger of childbirth, mitigated only in recent times, and from which men are obviously exempt
  • the right to vote was traditionally tied to property ownership, excluding many men as well as all women
  • homemaking work done by women or men has significant economic value
 
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