[Fe] ESFJ e2 "The People's ENFP"

[Captain_Invincible]

I came back to get feedback on something that I've been pondering for a while:

People have been typing me as an ExFP, when I am sure that I lean more towards ExFJ (not in the traditional sense, no) but from the functional point of view. I know in the past people have seen Se-Dom for myself (which I am almost certain isn't my dominant function, because sometimes I have to work myself into the actual zone) and some people have suggested Ne dom too (but I am certain now that my Ne isn't that strong and doesn't work the same way as an ENxP does).

I know superficially that I can look Pe-Dom on the surface (which I am attributing to the Demonstrative Function in Socionics and Tertiary Development). Although at times I have felt alien, I haven't felt so in an "Ne-way", nor have I actually sat down and figured out my feelings and why I am feeling things to the extent that Fi Aux does. Like, I know that people tend to contribute 'weak inner emotional knowledge' to weak F, but that's not always the case. I'd say that is weaker Fi.

I know that some Fe doms are confused as to what's going on inside them. I know that I am definitely not Ti aux because my Ti is... just terrible compared to even my Se or Ni. If I am taking on a role within a group, I tend to take on the behavior of that role, even if I'm clueless to how it works, and then hope for the best.

Sometimes that makes me seem stupid, but then I am a great guesser and that compensates for everything I lack. I'm also good at doing things others aren't good at, like figuring out things through aha moments. Awakening the beast within me.

I guess that now I'm beginning to mature, and know a lot more things about Personality Theory, I can see these things acting out in my life. And now, I can't pretend anymore. I know how much I don't wanna be 'me', but now I see that I can't be anyone but me. I can hide under a million different costumes, but underneath it all is still the person I am meant to be.

 

[Masokissed]

I've been thinking about this more thoroughly, especially in the case of Robin Williams (ESFJ). I think that ESFJs (and Fe dom) can do very outrageous things to make their audiences pleased instead of out of their own personal preferences. This can seem like a thirst for experience itself and in many ways there can be some thirst for it in themselves (Robin had some 7 in him; I know Starry has him down as 6w7 and I generally agree with that), but ultimately this is serving their people first. An ENFP (or Fi creative/aux person) operates mostly on the opposite procedure; what they do is out of their own whim and desire, hardly others, but they can still have an audience and play with one. When Robin Williams dresses up as a woman to make people laugh it's solely to make them laugh; an ENFP would do it seriously if they felt like it (not that ExFJ drag queens aren't a thing - oh yes they are, but they do it in an accepting space whereas the Fi user wouldn't give a damn anyways).

And in many ways, the Fe dom will end up running into experiences because of their focus on the people which leads them to do things or to new things. Whether they are open to it is a matter of their health level. And Robin was lead to many experiences and open to most - like when he had the coke habit, among other things.

Just a thought.

[MENTION=10082]Starry[/MENTION]

 

[Lord Lavender]

I was thinking is there a similar thing with ESFJs thinking they are ENTPs as in some ways this does make more sense than ESFJ/ENFP confusion due to all functions being shared. Early in my typoC days a few thought I was a ESFJ due to showing a lot of Fe. It was eventually found that I use more Ne than Fe overall so I now type as ENTP. However I am curious if ESFJ/ENTP is also easily confused specially if the ENTP is a Ne sub type so less Ti and more Fe heavy than normal.

 

[Starry]

I've been thinking about this more thoroughly, especially in the case of Robin Williams (ESFJ). I think that ESFJs (and Fe dom) can do very outrageous things to make their audiences pleased instead of out of their own personal preferences. This can seem like a thirst for experience itself and in many ways there can be some thirst for it in themselves (Robin had some 7 in him; I know Starry has him down as 6w7 and I generally agree with that), but ultimately this is serving their people first. An ENFP (or Fi creative/aux person) operates mostly on the opposite procedure; what they do is out of their own whim and desire, hardly others, but they can still have an audience and play with one. When Robin Williams dresses up as a woman to make people laugh it's solely to make them laugh; an ENFP would do it seriously if they felt like it (not that ExFJ drag queens aren't a thing - oh yes they are, but they do it in an accepting space whereas the Fi user wouldn't give a damn anyways).

And in many ways, the Fe dom will end up running into experiences because of their focus on the people which leads them to do things or to new things. Whether they are open to it is a matter of their health level. And Robin was lead to many experiences and open to most - like when he had the coke habit, among other things.

Just a thought.

@Starry

Masokissed - it is so good to see you. And I love bright people that can explain things a million times better than I can. This is so good.


Robbin Williams ESFJ is obvious to me. The way he cared deeply and connected with his audience. Enneagram though...he could have been 2w3. 6w7 made sense to me at the time based on wing emergence and what we go through when this occurs. His life story reads the opposite of what so many 7s report in that he was a depressed, lonely and fearful child...until he discovered comedy in his late teens/early adulthood. I've noticed now that 2s often report a lonely/isolated childhood as well though so...?


Here's a song that I've been listening to for the last hour or so for you to enjoy while I remember what else I wanted to say about this haha.

 

[Starry]

I was thinking is there a similar thing with ESFJs thinking they are ENTPs as in some ways this does make more sense than ESFJ/ENFP confusion due to all functions being shared. Early in my typoC days a few thought I was a ESFJ due to showing a lot of Fe. It was eventually found that I use more Ne than Fe overall so I now type as ENTP. However I am curious if ESFJ/ENTP is also easily confused specially if the ENTP is a Ne sub type so less Ti and more Fe heavy than normal.

I have see this Cat Brainz...but with the xNTP it seems more tied to e6. I've seen a lot of ISFJs mistype as INTPs at e6.

Also [MENTION=15392]Cellmold[/MENTION] has a post somewhere more at the beginning of this thread where I believe he says he has been typed by others as ENTP. I don't remember Cellmold what you identify as ESFJ or ENFJ 6...I lean eNFJ myself but ?


Also Cat Brainz....The Great One...people always insisted he was EFJ...but I saw so many test results of his and I strongly disagree with that. He was ENTP in my opinion...and his.


edit: whoops...here's a Missy Elliot song for you as well.

 

[Dreamer]

Masokissed - it is so good to see you. And I love bright people that can explain things a million times better than I can. This is so good.


Robbin Williams ESFJ is obvious to me. The way he cared deeply and connected with his audience. Enneagram though...he could have been 2w3. 6w7 made sense to me at the time based on wing emergence and what we go through when this occurs. His life story reads the opposite of what so many 7s report in that he was a depressed, lonely and fearful child...until he discovered comedy in his late teens/early adulthood. I've noticed now that 2s often report a lonely/isolated childhood as well though so...?


Here's a song for you that I've been listening to for the last hour or so for you to enjoy while I remember what else I wanted to say about this haha.

I umm...did not read your post at all, but I saw Missy and ugh! Takes me back. Personal fave was Gossip Folks. That song got me hooked to her music

Now I shall actually go back and read some of these posts, just wanted to quickly post this as the excitement is still around.

 

[Dreamer]

YAS!!

 

[Starry]

YAS!!

^^^LOVE


Here's for you E_D!

 

[Cellmold]

I have see this Cat Brainz...but with the xNTP it seems more tied to e6. I've seen a lot of ISFJs mistype as INTPs at e6.

Also [MENTION=15392]Cellmold[/MENTION] has a post somewhere more at the beginning of this thread where I believe he says he has been typed by others as ENTP. I don't remember Cellmold what you identify as ESFJ or ENFJ 6...I lean eNFJ myself but ?


Also Cat Brainz....The Great One...people always insisted he was EFJ...but I saw so many test results of his and I strongly disagree with that. He was ENTP in my opinion...and his.


edit: whoops...here's a Missy Elliot song for you as well.

I was thinking is there a similar thing with ESFJs thinking they are ENTPs as in some ways this does make more sense than ESFJ/ENFP confusion due to all functions being shared. Early in my typoC days a few thought I was a ESFJ due to showing a lot of Fe. It was eventually found that I use more Ne than Fe overall so I now type as ENTP. However I am curious if ESFJ/ENTP is also easily confused specially if the ENTP is a Ne sub type so less Ti and more Fe heavy than normal.

I had a big tangent on ESFJ/ENTP amongst the people who interacted with me most often, particularly on VOIP software like vent.

The issue, I think, is my inconsistent nature and tendency to flip-flop in the way I present myself and the ideas that currently hold my attention. That would probably lead (superficially) towards many people's ideas of Ne but I joined in my mid-20's and according to the popularised idea that people follow a certain pattern of development (though it's not a rule) of the tertiary function around their mid-20's it could easily be a tertiary thing.

However I'm not very clued up with typology at the moment, except maybe a bit of the Big 5 where I have a fairly difficult relationship between high neuroticism and mid to low conscientiousness.

Neither ENTP or ESFJ really sits well with me at this point in time & I think it's hard to un-expose yourself to ideas that changed your thinking. In other words if we take type as the general patterns of development or tendencies then an EFJ might be less naturally inclined to expose themselves to certain ideas, especially ones that promote a more impersonal view of the world.

But it seems to be in the ingrained reactions of real moments without reflection that we reveal ourselves the most. Especially if you find yourself in a situation where the Fe general is being challenged by the Ti impersonal, the 'true' EFJ will probably always choose anything other than impersonal. I was characterised (and to an extent still am) by an alternating loner/seeker nature that is quite demanding in it's need for comfort when desired and solitude when desired. It's hard to confuse Si alone with repetition as the whole theory relies upon a consistency of self-hood, which is often fictitious itself, & I sadly find that I'm quite disingenuous.

There is a harsh divide between online and off which I think can be explained (however unsatisfactorily) by the nature of Fe to leave deeper considerations to some other function. I'm not saying it's empty, but it's informed by taking note of group evaluation & this means that if left to itself it cannot come up with a decent standpoint without referencing it's other functions. And particularly when coming across impersonal, logical evaluation (whether the source be Te or Ti) there's a tendency to either reject or overly accept the evaluation.
And maybe that's the biggest trap which makes it hard to examine yourself as a 'self' with regards to being EFJ; that this is less about the echos of an internal or a worldview informed by a intense emotional connection to the reactions of being & instead is about hollowing out those echos because of an ultimately irrational need to keep a species going through group information.

Simplification and not the whole picture, but the irrational is more powerful, which is why those who can harness group appeal are such great movers even if they aren't necessarily great thinkers. Appeals to emotion are powerful and instinctive, they reject reflection & reverie by their nature.
And there will always be divisions amongst people because of the baseline nature gave them. Are we just deviations from the standard template or a complex variable output based on different information with different results? A brief overview might favour the former, but just as we 'generally' have lungs, heart & brain etc... we also have variations on that template. One brain is not necessarily equal to another and we only understand flaws through similarity or lack of.

Bit of a deviation, I think I kind of went off on a tangent there.

I think with EFJs you will find independent thought strongest away from big groups and with ETP it's often strongest with it (both Se and Ne need a kind of stimulation from others, although having said that I think the parts don't always explain the whole form when it comes to Ne > Fe or Se > Fe in that order of preference so it's probably that stronger Fe in ENTP that causes the desire for devil's advocacy by bouncing off a willing participant in order to continually expand the connection network).

Being alone can also be painful for EFJs. It's usually the case that they are kept so busy in other's lives and their own that a moment of self-reflection comes very rarely and often unnaturally. It is usually also unwelcome.

Notice the prevalence for statements of 'how time flies' or 'don't they grow up fast'. It's a general unconscious reference to how our perception of time changes with age; the new is not so new and our attention is more settled and less prone to engagements of wonder with what we dub over time as the mundane, possibly from development of frontal lobes, loss of myelin & generally less plasticity in older brains.

However it could also be a product of the power of EFJs over the generalised surface of a society. Time flies because we kept ourselves so busy as to avoid the uncomfortable moment of silence inbetween activity. The kind of silence that blindsides you at 2am with thoughts of death and disaster.

We can either examine that or lock it away behind other activities and I would suggest many EFJs have a tendency to do the latter.

To keep moving right up until the last moment seems to be the aim. I know a fair few middle-aged EFJs, male and female, who suddenly shot up into outdoor activities and fitness in their mid-40's, potentially just a midlife crisis but perhaps something closer to type (once again we find the socially acknowledged generalisations 'midlife crisis' popping up).

I don't know how useful this is, I'm in information splurge mode at the moment.

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

I see that Robin Williams came up earlier. I would agree on the ESFJ as a more likely typing. For a good comparison of ENFP and ESFJ in the context of 70s comedians, I think Andy Kaufman is a better example of an eNFP. He didn't seem to give a shit if the audience wasn't always in on his jokes (incidentally, it's rare to find someone who has a middling opinion of him; he tends to be either loved or hated. Also, incidentally, I knew an SFJ guitarist I used to play music with who absolutely LOVED Kaufman--just a personal hypothesis that is completely unbacked by evidence, but I wonder if ENFP performers often find their audience in ESFJ fans). I also see Carlin typed ENFP a lot, but I'm not convinced. Convince me if you think he is an ENFP. I see ENTP as another possibility in his case; hell, Carlin may have been an ESxJ, though it doesn't seem as likely, with that undercurrent of distrust in authority running through most of his career, but that was at least partly due to the period he came up in (late 60s/early 70s saw an unprecedented level of distrust in gov't and authority emerge from all corners of society) and some of his influences like Lenny Bruce (another possible ENFP?)

What about Richard Pryor? I've seen him typed NFJ in the past.

[MENTION=10082]Starry[/MENTION] [MENTION=24829]Masokissed[/MENTION] and anyone else, I am curious to hear your thoughts on Pryor, Kaufman, Bruce, and my personal hypothesis that ENFP performers find a lot of fans in ESFJs.

 

[Masokissed]

His life story reads the opposite of what so many 7s report in that he was a depressed, lonely and fearful child...until he discovered comedy in his late teens/early adulthood. I've noticed now that 2s often report a lonely/isolated childhood as well though so...?

I'd say an unhappy childhood is common for many types, but yeah, I wouldn't say it's particularly common for the 7 experience. Speaking for myself, mine was average and I was a very playful and mostly socially interactive child (when I wasn't too busy being stuck in my dreams).

^^^LOVE


Here's for you E_D!

THIS is by my favorite song by her.

 

[Masokissed]

I see that Robin Williams came up earlier. I would agree on the ESFJ as a more likely typing. For a good comparison of ENFP and ESFJ in the context of 70s comedians, I think Andy Kaufman is a better example of an eNFP. He didn't seem to give a shit if the audience wasn't always in on his jokes (incidentally, it's rare to find someone who has a middling opinion of him; he tends to be either loved or hated. Also, incidentally, I knew an SFJ guitarist I used to play music with who absolutely LOVED Kaufman--just a personal hypothesis that is completely unbacked by evidence, but I wonder if ENFP performers often find their audience in ESFJ fans). I also see Carlin typed ENFP a lot, but I'm not convinced. Convince me if you think he is an ENFP. I see ENTP as another possibility in his case; hell, Carlin may have been an ESxJ, though it doesn't seem as likely, with that undercurrent of distrust in authority running through most of his career, but that was at least partly due to the period he came up in (late 60s/early 70s) and some of his influences like Lenny Bruce (another possible ENFP?)

What about Richard Pryor? I've seen him typed NFJ in the past.

[MENTION=10082]Starry[/MENTION] [MENTION=24829]Masokissed[/MENTION] and anyone else, I am curious to hear your thoughts on Pryor, Kaufman, Bruce, and my personal hypothesis that ENFP performers find a lot of fans in ESFJs.

I'm not sure about Pryor but I loved a lot of his stuff.

 

[Lord Lavender]

I have see this Cat Brainz...but with the xNTP it seems more tied to e6. I've seen a lot of ISFJs mistype as INTPs at e6.

Also [MENTION=15392]Cellmold[/MENTION] has a post somewhere more at the beginning of this thread where I believe he says he has been typed by others as ENTP. I don't remember Cellmold what you identify as ESFJ or ENFJ 6...I lean eNFJ myself but ?


Also Cat Brainz....The Great One...people always insisted he was EFJ...but I saw so many test results of his and I strongly disagree with that. He was ENTP in my opinion...and his.


edit: whoops...here's a Missy Elliot song for you as well.

I think the xNTPs that get mistyped as xSFJs will typically have a tritype that is untypical of their respective types. I imagine 2,6 or 9 fixed xNTPs will have some xSFJ traits as all three of those types amp up Fe/Si to a degree while causing said xNTP to repress their Ne/Ti to get along with others as Ne/Ti is seem as socially unacceptable and weird by many due to its nature. For my case I think its my 9 that can lead me to look ESFJish as I fear separation from others so instead of using Ne/Ti in my interactions I go straight to Fe as thats the "safe function" for most interactions so to speak kinda like the TV trope "A form you are comfortable with". Its not natural for me to use Fe exclusively and I do eventually open up my top two functions to those who know me well and can accept me.

As for xSFJs mistyping as xNTPs I again think a xSFJ with a 4,5 or 7 fix could seem more xNTPish as again those types can amp up Ne and Ti due to the nature of those. For example a ESFJ with a 7 fix would have a strong Ne due to the nature of 7 looking more ENxP while a 5 fixed ISFJ would have Ti way amped up and Fe muted especially if not 2 fixed as well looking more INTP. Again stackings can aslo play a role in that I think So heavy xNTPs will look more xSFJ and So last xSFJs more xNTP.

 

[Starry]

I'd say an unhappy childhood is common for many types, but yeah, I wouldn't say it's particularly common for the 7 experience. Speaking for myself, mine was average and I was a very playful and mostly socially interactive child (when I wasn't too busy being stuck in my dreams).

So many awesome posts in this thread <3 But I'm going to address this really quickly with the time I have.

Masokissed...I wasn't as clear regarding 6 and 7 and Robbin Williams as I should have been. Actually now that I'm here I'm still not sure how to say this ha. I think Celebrity types has Williams typed as ENFP right?

Just to give you a sense of variation...some theorists hold that if you are Ne dominant the only enneagram placement you could possibly be/become is 7. It is thought that the unique characteristics of dominant extroverted intuition makes it so exceedingly easy for the child to immediately shift their focus away from a problem...or to see something that is a problem and then so quickly twist it around into something that isn't... it is thought that this ability is so strong a young Ne dom can't help but "automatically" learn to deal with their fears in this way.

^Ne dom 7s don't all share "ideal childhoods" in common. What they share is Ne wiring that makes it very easy for them to turn any kind of childhood into an "ideal childhood" in their minds. IOW, many Ne 7s will report having an ideal childhood in spite of what the true experience of it was according to others...and if they do eventually accept having been subjected to "less than perfect conditions"...it will be after the 6 or 8 wing emerges and the abuse or neglect or trauma would have been fairly substantial...being sad and lonely and overweight wouldn't be enough...Ne could rework that. (hopefully that makes sense *crossing fingers*) This is Ne specific.

THIS is by my favorite song by her.

 

[Masokissed]

^Ne dom 7s don't all share "ideal childhoods" in common. What they share is Ne wiring that makes it very easy for them to turn any kind of childhood into an "ideal childhood" in their minds. IOW, many Ne 7s will report having an ideal childhood in spite of what the true experience of it was according to others...and if they do eventually accept having been subjected to "less than perfect conditions"...it will be after the 6 or 8 wing emerges and the abuse or neglect or trauma would have been fairly substantial...being sad and lonely and overweight wouldn't be enough...Ne could rework that. (hopefully that makes sense *crossing fingers*) This is Ne specific.

Oh yes, this makes total sense. I'm sure whatever bad was there when I was younger was pushed inside in some way or distracted away from. I think it's not uncommon for a (especially Ne dom) 7 to be bullied or disliked a bit, too, but they usually handle it maturely or don't notice or stay hopeful somehow.

 

[thepink-cloakedninja]

What about ESFJs mistyping as INFPs?

 

[Smilephantomhive]

What about ESFJs mistyping as INFPs?

I'm really curious to ear your reasoning for why you could be either type. Not that I doubt you, but because the only thing they have in common is the F dichotomy, and I'm interested.

 

[thepink-cloakedninja]

I'm really curious to ear your reasoning for why you could be either type. Not that I doubt you, but because the only thing they have in common is the F dichotomy, and I'm interested.

Well I'm obviously on the Ne/Si or Si/Ne scale. I observe myself utilizing these functions regularly. Additionally, my Ne is far too strong to be an ISFJ and my Si is too strong for me to be an ENFP. Plus, many of my insecurities and stress points could either be related to Te or Ti so both would work well as inferior functions for me. I totally fall into a sort of "Te grip" when extremely psychologically unhealthy.

I'm torn on INFP and ESFJ mostly because I'm not sure if I'm Fe or Fi. I score highly on both for assessments and people on here often see me as Fe which gives a point for ESFJ. However, by dichotomies I'm an IXXP. I act like an introvert in real life (usually very quiet in groups; need lots of time alone; get overly emotional if too many people, even friends, keep talking to me), and am very spontaneous, go with the flow, and indecisive.

 

[Smilephantomhive]

Well I'm obviously on the Ne/Si or Si/Ne scale. I observe myself utilizing these functions regularly. Additionally, my Ne is far too strong to be an ISFJ and my Si is too strong for me to be an ENFP. Plus, many of my insecurities and stress points could either be related to Te or Ti so both would work well as inferior functions for me. I totally fall into a sort of "Te grip" when extremely psychologically unhealthy.

I'm torn on INFP and ESFJ mostly because I'm not sure if I'm Fe or Fi. I score highly on both for assessments and people on here often see me as Fe which gives a point for ESFJ. However, by dichotomies I'm an IXXP. I act like an introvert in real life (usually very quiet in groups; need lots of time alone; get overly emotional if too many people, even friends, keep talking to me), and am very spontaneous, go with the flow, and indecisive.

If you need more time alone than most people then I would go wit INFP, but who knows?

 

[thepink-cloakedninja]

If you need more time alone than most people then I would go wit INFP, but who knows?

Ah, thank you. :3