[Fe] ESFJ e2 "The People's ENFP"

[Dreamer]

Hmm, interesting [MENTION=10082]Starry[/MENTION]. (about you being able to type someone easier over the internet) I can totally see what you mean though and how it would be easier for you. I find I get sidetracked by words and fluff far more easily than when I can interact with someone and read their body language. I don't consciously do it, but ya, for me, it's easier in person.

 

[Virtual ghost]

Hmm, interesting [MENTION=10082]Starry[/MENTION]. (about you being able to type someone easier over the internet) I can totally see what you mean though and how it would be easier for you. I find I get sidetracked by words and fluff far more easily than when I can interact with someone and read their body language. I don't consciously do it, but ya, for me, it's easier in person.

If I may add ...


For quite some time I was thinking that typing a person over the internet is easier. However there is a catch and that is: on the internet the infomation is much more transparent BUT there is the question how well do you actually see the other person? For example the E/I divide is mostly lost online, many people are more emotionally open since they have a sense of anonymity. P/J is also lost in many cases because you can type anything you want about your habits. Here one person said "I am not sure if you use more Ti or Te" while in real life it would be pretty clear that the Te is right answer.


Plus you have the factor that not everyone has the same first language. Therefore bad translation of thought or lack of skill in certain language can come as some kind of personality trait online .. while in real life it is often pretty obvious when someones is not talking on his/her first language.

 

[Starry]

I know. I have said a number of times that the whole "S stands for stupid" thing should end.


I have criticized the OP because I am fairly sure that she is exaggerating in her claims. In a way towards her logic if you read between the lines (or reversely) it is quite unlikely that ENFP can be a 2. What is especially problematic because it can be said that ENFP 2 is quite likely to look like a Fe-dom. ENFP 2 and ESFJ 2 will be quite alike since they actually share worldview. (unlike unlike Starry and ESFJs 2)

Exaggeration is a 'rhetorical device' and is considered one of the most effective tools to use when attempting to persuade an audience to look at an old topic in a new way. It has long since been established on this site that I am not above the use of hyperbole. I will tell you though that I am also a scientist by trade. And after looking at this issue from multiple angles for quite a few years now - I stand by what I say. No one has requested that you stand here though but your "logic" has been dually noted all the same.

Please find for me, though, one place on the internet where I have indicated...between the lines or otherwise...that I believe in the existence of ENFP 2s. It would also be interesting to know why what is presented in the OP would be dependent and ENFP 2s existing in the first place. It's almost as if you are criticising my logic without truly understanding what I have said.

I find reasoning in OP potentally flawed becuase her own type is 7 and the fact that she is Social last. Therefore anyone that is more social and emotinally open in real life will look as a Fe-dom to her, even if the person may not be a Fe-dom. Ok, "more heartless" was perhaps too hard term to use here (English is not my first language). However my point was that social or/and emotional detachment of her type is perhaps making her too push certain limits too far.

Typing people over the internet is one thing... knowing them psychically is quite another. Still, it doesn't get much more socially and emotionally open than me when I was younger. Likewise, I was raised by a whole slew of "heartless" Fe doms. One of them being my mother... an ENFJ 2.

When my INTJ father met her...he was absolutely convinced he had met the ESFP of his dreams.

 

[gromit]

I admit to being theeee worrrrsst typist ever.

But I've definitely had trouble understanding this friend/roomie. Nevermind type.

She is kooky and zany and charming and delightful. So very conscientous and considerate of everyone too. In a way i cannot even relate to.

She sometimes misses the chair lift skiing. But she explained, it's not because she's flaking out, it's because she wants to make sure everyone gets on, she doesn't want to be the person who goes ahead and leaves someone behind. But then multiple times she has been too busy making sure everyone gets on at the same time that the chair lift comes and goes and she is still standing in line, everyone else is heading up the mountain.

Or I invited her to go on a camping trip to these really beautiful mountains over the summer and she said yes, she really wanted to. But then she found out it was a friend's bridal shower, a friend she only sort of knew, but who probably didn't invite a lot of people. She felt like she should go to the bridal shower anyay even though she really wanted to go on the camping trip and even though she had already told me she wanted to do it.

And so many other examples.

I was describing a guy I've been talking to, how I like that he is a gentle person. Then I asked her "am I gentle?" and she said... "well... you are different from him. He is kind of like "well, what do you want?" and you sometimes say something like "well, are you going or not going?" you don't want to put up with nonsense".

She puts up with more nonsense. She wants to know what everyone wants and what everyone feels.

I think I like to think of myself really a harmonious person who consideres everyone's feelings, but you know, she leaves me in the dust with that. And maybe I can be a little more respectful of her considerate nature and not take advantage of it so much. I think I thought since we are both a bit of free spirits and a bit goofy, get along so well, then we are similar in other ways, but that is not so true perhaps.

 

[Starry]

I admit to being theeee worrrrsst typist ever.

But I've definitely had trouble understanding this friend/roomie. Nevermind type.

She is kooky and zany and charming and delightful. So very conscientous and considerate of everyone too. In a way i cannot even relate to.

She sometimes misses the chair lift skiing. But she explained, it's not because she's flaking out, it's because she wants to make sure everyone gets on, she doesn't want to be the person who goes ahead and leaves someone behind. But then multiple times she has been too busy making sure everyone gets on at the same time that the chair lift comes and goes and she is still standing in line, everyone else is heading up the mountain.

Or I invited her to go on a camping trip to these really beautiful mountains over the summer and she said yes, she really wanted to. But then she found out it was a friend's bridal shower, a friend she only sort of knew, but who probably didn't invite a lot of people. She felt like she should go to the bridal shower anyay even though she really wanted to go on the camping trip and even though she had already told me she wanted to do it.

And so many other examples.

I was describing a guy I've been talking to, how I like that he is a gentle person. Then I asked her "am I gentle?" and she said... "well... you are different from him. He is kind of like "well, what do you want?" and you sometimes say something like "well, are you going or not going?" you don't want to put up with nonsense".

She puts up with more nonsense. She wants to know what everyone wants and what everyone feels.

I think I like to think of myself really a harmonious person who consideres everyone's feelings, but you know, she leaves me in the dust with that. And maybe I can be a little more respectful of her considerate nature and not take advantage of it so much. I think I thought since we are both a bit of free spirits and a bit goofy, get along so well, then we are similar in other ways, but that is not so true perhaps.

I love seeing a long post from you! And based on everything you wrote I can see very clearly why you posted at length in here.

I'm actually at a hotel and something in the room is making me not be able to stop sneezing? (so weird)...and so I'm a little disoriented...but based solely on what you say I would put all my money on Fe. Fe at 2, phobic 6 or 9.


edit: what is the motivation that drives her behavior do you know?

 

[fetus]

Well, I am sure that ENFP 2's must exist...it is one of the common types for them, isn't it? Behind 7 and 4?

Enneagram = motivations
MBTI = behavior, thought processes

Right?

 

[Virtual ghost]

Exaggeration is a 'rhetorical device' and is considered one of the most effective tools to use when attempting to persuade an audience to look at an old topic in a new way. It has long since been established on this site that I am not above the use of hyperbole. I will tell you though that I am also a scientist by trade. And after looking at this issue from multiple angles for quite a few years now - I stand by what I say. No one has requested that you stand here though but your "logic" has been dually noted all the same.

Please find for me, though, one place on the internet where I have indicated...between the lines or otherwise...that I believe in the existence of ENFP 2s. It would also be interesting to know why what is presented in the OP would be dependent and ENFP 2s existing in the first place. It's almost as if you are criticising my logic without truly understanding what I have said.

Truth to be said I am reading your post I am not trully sure what is the bottom line in it.
Also I don't know what "exaggeration" should mean in rhetorical aspect because I am not into that kinds of things. I simply say what is on my mind.


Well there is a reason why I have said that "if you read between the lines" since you haven't said anthing directly. I have said that you don't seem to believe too much in existance of ENFP e2 and that is why I have reacted, becuase my theory was that typical ENFP 2 was too far for you to relate to them. Therefore some people that may not be Fe doms can towards your logic be accused that they are Fe-doms even if they are not. However I agree that there are plenty of mistyped SJs since their profiles are out of date and very biased towards American culture.


That is all what I was actually trying to say.

 

[Doctor Cringelord]

Yeah, what are you tryin to say, [MENTION=10082]Starry[/MENTION]?

 

[chubber]

[MENTION=10082]Starry[/MENTION], thanks for creating this thread, long over due I would say.

The problem is, these ESFJ 2s are like chameleons.

ESFJs are people persons - they love people. They are warmly interested in others. They use their Sensing and Judging characteristics to gather specific, detailed information about others, and turn this information into supportive judgments. They want to like people, and have a special skill at bringing out the best in others. They are extremely good at reading others, and understanding their point of view. The ESFJ's strong desire to be liked and for everything to be pleasant makes them highly supportive of others. People like to be around ESFJs, because the ESFJ has a special gift of invariably making people feel good about themselves.

They are just fluffy bunnies... at first.

 

[Starry]

Yeah, what are you tryin to say, [MENTION=10082]Starry[/MENTION]?

I can't stop cracking up at this

 

[Doctor Cringelord]

 

[Starry]

Well, I am sure that ENFP 2's must exist...it is one of the common types for them, isn't it? Behind 7 and 4?

Enneagram = motivations
MBTI = behavior, thought processes

Right?

Enneagram presents us with a variety of different challenges...one of them being that each theorist or group of theorists possess varying ideologies.

There are some theorists that do hold any MBTI can be any point on the enneagram...or that any child...regardless of their dominant function...can take on the core issues of any enneagram placement. <-Due to the "self-reporting" nature of forums that are dedicated to personality theory...it makes sense that this is the attitude that most if not all of them adopt.

Now, while there may be professional theorists out there that actually say as part of their own ideology that e2 is 3rd in the running for the ENFP... I personally have never seen this. What I have only ever seen are statistics based again of self-reports and when you consider how unreliable enneagram tests are...and how frequently people change types until they finally get it right...I do find those numbers difficult to trust.

Just to give you a sense of variation...some theorists hold that if you are Ne dominant the only enneagram placement you could possibly be/become is 7. It is thought that the unique characteristics of dominant extroverted intuition makes it so exceedingly easy for the child to immediately shift their focus away from a problem...or to see something that is a problem and then so quickly twist it around into something that isn't... it is thought that this ability is so strong a young Ne dom can't help but "automatically" learn to deal with their fears in this way.

^^Due to the fact I am an Ne dom and subsequently believe all things are possible...it is difficult for me to personally sign-off on that. But from everything I've seen I can't help but think that for the most part it is true.

Can an ENFP child develop the core fears of a 2? Possibly...but I do feel it would be highly unlikely. I definitely think 2 is common as it pertains to an ENFP tritype...but I can't even think of one forum member in all my time that claimed ENFP 2 as their type (if I'm forgetting someone forgive me).


For what I'm discussing though... These are ESFJs...many of which are outright testing as ESFJ and consistently so...that do not identify as 2s either in spite of possessing/demonstrating those characteristics.

 

[Starry]

[MENTION=10082]Starry[/MENTION], thanks for creating this thread, long over due I would say.

The problem is, these ESFJ 2s are like chameleons.



They are just fluffy bunnies... at first.

I completely forgot about you chubber! I have seen you in threads where this issue has been briefly touched on and have repeatedly been struck by a sense of *omg he sees it - he knows!*

As NFPs there is often a sense that we're swatting at phantoms and ghosts here. This phenomenon is very real and not necessarily difficult to demonstrate once a solid explanation is in place...but we are hindered in so many ways by stereotypes and other bullshit... It does amaze me that you have come to see it as a non-NFP on your own.

 

[thoughtlost]

Actually, I thought 6 was the other enneagram type "common" to ENFP. I didn't read that it was enneagram 2. I could be wrong, though. One of the older members explained it to me in a PM that lots of 6w7s get typed as xNFP, when really they are XSFJ.

 

[Starry]

Not laughing as much anymore now that I'm terrified

 

[gromit]

I love seeing a long post from you! And based on everything you wrote I can see very clearly why you posted at length in here.

I'm actually at a hotel and something in the room is making me not be able to stop sneezing? (so weird)...and so I'm a little disoriented...but based solely on what you say I would put all my money on Fe. Fe at 2, phobic 6 or 9.


edit: what is the motivation that drives her behavior do you know?

I do what I can to please

Hmm it is hard to say what drives someone's behavior. I know she said she didn't want to be the kind of person who leaves someone behind, or maybe even not wanting people to think she is that kind of person. I dunno. She does care a lot about what people think and feel and I think she has a hard time separating herself out from that.

She also admires how good I am at relaxing and at leisure which I think is pretty funny, since it's not like that takes any effort to be good at. So I don't think she is as motivated by comfort and pleasure in the way I am.

Other thing is though that she is from US Midwest and I am from Boston, so there is also a cultural side of things.

 

[prplchknz]

I do what I can to please

Hmm it is hard to say what drives someone's behavior. I know she said she didn't want to be the kind of person who leaves someone behind, or maybe even not wanting people to think she is that kind of person. I dunno. She does care a lot about what people think and feel and I think she has a hard time separating herself out from that.

She also admires how good I am at relaxing and at leisure which I think is pretty funny, since it's not like that takes any effort to be good at. So I don't think she is as motivated by comfort and pleasure in the way I am.

Other thing is though that she is from US Midwest and I am from Boston, so there is also a cultural side of things.

Yeah you guys don't believe in R's and she probably does. thats clearly a defining cultural difference.

 

[thoughtlost]

I do what I can to please

Hmm it is hard to say what drives someone's behavior. I know she said she didn't want to be the kind of person who leaves someone behind, or maybe even not wanting people to think she is that kind of person. I dunno. She does care a lot about what people think and feel and I think she has a hard time separating herself out from that.

She also admires how good I am at relaxing and at leisure which I think is pretty funny, since it's not like that takes any effort to be good at. So I don't think she is as motivated by comfort and pleasure in the way I am.

Other thing is though that she is from US Midwest and I am from Boston, so there is also a cultural side of things.

Well, if she is anything like me, I guess she'd see it like this:

Let's say she did the opposite of what she does. Let's say that she got on that ski lift and potentially leave someone behind or NOT go to the wedding/bridal shower/whateverIamsorry. She is sensing the "other" person's reaction. But the reaction she is really feeling is her own. So she is putting the other person in her own shoes. She doesn't want other people to feel the way she would, because what she is really seeing is herself. At the same time, she ends up in those situations that could potentially put her in an unpleasant situation... but then she finds she is able to handle them... for a while.

Fe is pretty self-driven... it's just projected outward. Hence our messy boundaries compared to Fi people. So that is why she appears to sweet/wanting to really be there for others.

i don't know if this was useful/helpful/stating the obvious/whateveridk.
*Iamsorrymeep*

 

[OrangeAppled]

It is true I have been consuming vodka, but nonetheless, I laughed for a solid 2 minutes over this, and without bothering to read the context.

---


I give my stamp of approval to ideas behind this thread. I just may quote myself on this topic, if I get a chance to review the rest of the thread and edit my comments from other discussions.

 

[PeaceBaby]

Been watching the thread for a while now.

Here's what I generally find amongst a significant percentage of self-reported ENFPs -- little evidence of dom Ne. Plenty of evidence of Ne in a relief role, yes. But not as the primary driver of thinking patterns.

And to expand, same for self-reported INFPs. I have wondered in the past if the reported preferences for each of the NFP types is over-estimated due to misunderstandings on the nature of the Ne function. People are looking at a particular behavioural set and misattributing it to a thinking preference.

Dominant Ne is quite different. Tertiary Ne is in the more "lovable" role. There's little middle ground with dom Ne -- it either drives you crazy or you get juiced from the scattershot meandering. Society is far more accepting of tertiary Ne in general. As an INFP I can "hide" my Ne a little better than ENFPs but I still get into "trouble" due to the nature of how I think. Dom and aux Ne make a person appear more "weird" than fun and zany.