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[Fe] ESFJ e2 "The People's ENFP"

HongDou

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Here's what I generally find amongst a significant percentage of self-reported ENFPs -- little evidence of dom Ne. Plenty of evidence of Ne in a relief role, yes. But not as the primary driver of thinking patterns.

Dominant Ne is quite different. Tertiary Ne is in the more "lovable" role.

I liked your whole post but I might have something to add onto these specific parts. I wonder if the ENFP online profiles are sort of the nail in the coffin when an ESFJ is led to believe one way or another that they could be ENFP. Like I said to prpz and fetus ESFJs have an Fe ego so their view of reality is composed of feelings and how they can influence them, so if ENFPs have stuff like "they make people laugh and feel happy" or "their personality naturally attracts others" written about them that will appeal to Fe which is actively (consciously or not) trying to foster those feelings.

That's another thing that makes me wonder whether a self-reported ENFP is actually an ENFP. In those questionnaires that ask things like "what is beauty" or "what is your life's purpose" or general questions like that I see a lot of "NF-coated" answers which are probably just Fe. Stuff like wanting to heal, inspire others, bring joy to the world, etc. Oooh, now terming the ENFP "the inspirer" also seems like a fatal move. Anyways a lot of responses I see seem based on how they want to influence others (in that specific humanitarian sort of way). I just know that if I saw more responses dealing with cultivating potential I would relate to a lot more people on here.

Oh, and that's another thing about being Pe-dominant. I think ENFPs are actually pretty cerebral, so part of keeping the lid on Ne sort of involves stepping on others' toes. I remember I was just (from my perspective) discussing ideas with someone and apparently he ended up thinking we got into an argument or something. :huh:

[MENTION=6561]OrangeAppled[/MENTION] I'm glad to see you in this thread now btw as I've learned a lot about this issue because of you. :D
 

cascadeco

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Oh, and that's another thing about being Pe-dominant. I think ENFPs are actually pretty cerebral, so part of keeping the lid on Ne sort of involves stepping on others' toes. I remember I was just (from my perspective) discussing ideas with someone and apparently he ended up thinking we got into an argument or something. :huh:

Ah, I have been guilty with Ne dom of thinking they were trying to convince me of something or else def had that 'argument' feel to me, actually that's probably often how I unfortunately perceive it if the Ne dom is esp excited or stimulated by the topic. :doh::blush:
 

thoughtlost

Honeyed Water
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I don't want to come across as inflammatory or instigating, but what's going on reminds me of my younger days I was typed as INFP (and I believed it, haha! I just never felt like I needed to be xxFJ because I fit the stereotype of xNFP well enough, like really well) on personalitycafe. I was also typed as a 2 on that forum.

Those that typed as INFP/ENFP were so NFy that it became sickening, so I eventually left because conversations ended up being super shallow and boring. Like, no human talks like that in real life (in my experience). At the time, I typed as INFP (but if I was unsure, just in general, I typed as xNFP)... but I got tired of the rainbows and quit. I couldn't have what I felt was a genuine interaction with anyone there ...Then after a period of being away from personality forums, I wanted to come back (BUT NOT TO PERSONALITY CAFE, OHMYGOODNESSIDON'TKNOWHOWPEOPLESTANDTHATSIGHT! ...but I guess it's okay for somethings. I don't know what that would be yet haha).

Then I came here. Then I realized how calm XNFPs on this site were. Well, I was older, so I was also calmer too. But the calmer energy helped me to really think things through. I realized how little I really knew about the system other than the obnoxious stereotypes of all types ...so I settled on just simply being an Feeler because that was all I knew. That's when I really learned, not only how the stereotypes really hurt the "image" of xNFPs, but the stereotypes of Fe REALLY hurt the image of xxFJs just as much.

The extra funny thing is that Jung's writing about Fe is pretty okay (and when you think of this phenomenon we're going through ...his description makes good sense!) ...but at the same time ...Fe people don't see themselves in that description often enough or not at all. Not even me and I read it like a billion times and always related to the Ne description.

There is another member on the forum (I forgot his/her/whoever's name) who wants to make better descriptions of Fe because, that person is an INFJ and can't relate to the description. And [MENTION=23583]21lux[/MENTION] also cannot relate. I think the issue is that those who created these systems in the first place are not Fe doms/auxes. So even people like Jung wouldn't really get it right.

bleh ....much ramble. no sense. haha.
 

Cellmold

Wake, See, Sing, Dance
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I don't want to come across as inflammatory or instigating, but what's going on reminds me of my younger days I was typed as INFP (and I believed it, haha! I just never felt like I needed to be xxFJ because I fit the stereotype of xNFP well enough, like really well) on personalitycafe. I was also typed as a 2 on that forum.

Those that typed as INFP/ENFP were so NFy that it became sickening, so I eventually left because conversations ended up being super shallow and boring. Like, no human talks like that in real life (in my experience). At the time, I typed as INFP (but if I was unsure, just in general, I typed as xNFP)... but I got tired of the rainbows and quit. I couldn't have what I felt was a genuine interaction with anyone there ...Then after a period of being away from personality forums, I wanted to come back (BUT NOT TO PERSONALITY CAFE, OHMYGOODNESSIDON'TKNOWHOWPEOPLESTANDTHATSIGHT! ...but I guess it's okay for somethings. I don't know what that would be yet haha).

Then I came here. Then I realized how calm XNFPs on this site were. Well, I was older, so I was also calmer too. But the calmer energy helped me to really think things through. I realized how little I really knew about the system other than the obnoxious stereotypes of all types ...so I settled on just simply being an Feeler because that was all I knew. That's when I really learned, not only how the stereotypes really hurt the "image" of xNFPs, but the stereotypes of Fe REALLY hurt the image of xxFJs just as much.

The extra funny thing is that Jung's writing about Fe is pretty okay (and when you think of this phenomenon we're going through ...his description makes good sense!) ...but at the same time ...Fe people don't see themselves in that description often enough or not at all. Not even me and I read it like a billion times and always related to the Ne description.

There is another member on the forum (I forgot his/her/whoever's name) who wants to make better descriptions of Fe because, that person is an INFJ and can't relate to the description. And [MENTION=23583]21lux[/MENTION] also cannot relate. I think the issue is that those who created these systems in the first place are not Fe doms/auxes. So even people like Jung wouldn't really get it right.

bleh ....much ramble. no sense. haha.

Is a bell Br1gs-Miarse rote dis buk 'G15ts dufferong' nd shee iduntifyes wiv EYE-EN-EFF-PEE. Nd hur Mutha wuz hlpin. Hur murther iz a EYE-EN-EFF-JAY.

Bt dat buk basiklee cums dwn too h0w Izzy bell wunted. Nd hurr sun, waz EE-EN-EFF-PEE. Dats sum absunse ov Eff-EEEE.
 

thoughtlost

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Is a bell Br1gs-Miarse rote dis buk 'G15ts dufferong' nd shee iduntifyes wiv EYE-EN-EFF-PEE. Nd hur Mutha wuz hlpin. Hur murther iz a EYE-EN-EFF-JAY.

Bt dat buk basiklee cums dwn too h0w Izzy bell wunted. Nd hurr sun, waz EE-EN-EFF-PEE.

omfg ...really Cellmond?? haha. Anyway, I think I understood that =P

I actually don't like their descriptions either. I didn't read her actual book, but I took their "test" in high school because our psychology teacher gave it to us. I got INFP when I took it. I feel like it only works for very stereotypical people or trying to fit people into job opportunities. Of course, I did look up the descriptions of that and other types a year later ...that's why I am now here =P

Wait ...I mean, I am stereotypically an F haha. So in a way, it works for me (so I guess she has something kindofalittlebit right). But, I didn't take the results seriously back then because it seemed so corny/ 1 - dimensional.

AND IF HER MOM IS SERIOUSLY AN ENFJ THEN HER FE TOTALLY GOT IN HER WAY OF WRITING THOSE DESCRIPTIONS OF FE. jkjkjk but not really jk. It's like Oprah... but the worst/annoying kind of Oprah.

You kind of have to think about her purpose for writing that book to gain a better understanding of how and why things were written the way they were. And they weren't really thinking about it the way Jung was thinking about it. It came down to what she "wanted" ...but what did she want to do by creating such a book?
 

thoughtlost

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Also, I want to publicly note that I don't mind honest mistypes. That happens, big whoop. The world hasn't ended yet. What I don't like is what I did, which was let myself be mistyped because INFP/ENFP DOES look better. It's something that I used to be too self-conscious to admit to, but I am happy with whatever type I am...so I am not self-conscious about it anymore. I am still trying to figure out why INFP/ENFP looks better, but it's just a vibe that has been around for YEARS.

You might say: Oh, no. No one wants to be INFP/ENFP. Then I will ask: Why? Then you might say: because they wish they were ESTJ/ESFJ/almost any other type because other types have their shit together! They never get anything done and can't amount to anything and xNFPs are too sensitive and no one likes them and they cry easily.

...Then I will say: ...Well, excuse you. Give me a break. I just god damn graduated college. Of course I am going to cry easily. What makes you THINK I am ready to adult? Adulting does not equal EST/ESFJ/any other type besides xNFP.

Shit. I totally do not have my shit together. I have an almost over-due bill to pay, I still haven't finished my finals because I procrastinate and people DO have issues following my thought patterns. I am really bad at mundane tasks (so yes... I do forget to eat/eat at random times/really bad at schedules). On top of that... I am sitting here, writting this long post.

And in reference to trying to understand WHY it's a cultural ideal to be xNFP ...I just figured it out. I remember browsing the Internets like 6 - 7 years ago when my interest in typology started. At the time, I was down on myself/self-absorbed/was basically an annoying person looking back. I was aware of a particular standard that I would compare myself to... and what were those standards?

Thou shalt be creative and creative.
Thou shalt use some kind of artistic medium to accomplish being unique and creative (such as being a writer or drawer or whatever).
Thou shalt expressive their creativity and uniqueness outwardly as to rid anyone (including yourself) of any doubt of how common they are (translation = get a youtube channel and be as obnoxious as possible. jkjkjk but serious). In fact, the friends I surrounded myself by were not youtubers, but were serious artists who had angel wings painted on their bedroom wall and came to school with a different hair color/style every week. I don't know if they were ENFPs... but they were very expressive/artistic/were awesome writers. And they always ended up viewing themselves as outcasts.
Thou shalt NOT want to follow the crowd.
Thou shalt stick up for ones' own beliefs and values (translation = just be an obnoxious person who doesn't have to worry about getting kicked out their parents' home if they are gay... sort of not jk ...cause this is serious).
And finally, thou shalt complain about how unfair the world is and how it stifles the expression and understanding of the self.
Thou shalt have an EXTREME love of learning and want to learn everything ever.

Of course, you also have the social justice factor in there too where everyone decides to study/teach ESL abroad to be more "cultured" and open-minded and tolerant. (translation = say you want to be a part of an NGO that supports LGBT rights)

But all together, these ideals have been highlighted by society as society continues to be innovative. You literally DO see it in society that people value this mode of being. You don't have to be an Fe person to see that. Why? Because 'Murica. Some these things I naturally I am despite being an xxFJ. I love to learn, and I enjoy learning about different cultures and different ways of expressing oneself. Fuck, I even wish I knew how the Internet worked and other technologies. I didn't even want to go to regular college. I wanted to be a photographer/dancer (I still do ...but more so on being a dancer). And I have values that are very important to me (like everyone else, whoop-di-doo). For the xxFJ that NATURALLY abides by these "rules," they will play it up when the environment suits such a behavior. Hence why some of them sound so obnoxious that you can't even be sure of who they really are (in real life ...not just the typology-centered Internets). But honestly, it IS them. It's as Jung said; they do not believe they are being untruthful/dishonest because it is an honest expression of themselves despite sounding over-compensating to others. Fe doms/auxes people CAN get very defensive about who they are, as the expression of the self/values is important for them too. And with younger Fe types it's really hard for them to see that they are getting a bit too attatched to the external expression of the self as their Fe is usually not so matured. Some people's Fe is mature though.

The Fe people in which this ISN'T an honest expression of the self will know it and won't play it up. So not all xxFJs will be like this. They can and do have a strong sense of self. That isn't Fi territory alone.

It's all about making the outer match the inner for Fe dom/auxes.

And I think that is why it's so hard to get those who are mistyped to feel comfortable in the XXFJ category, because they naturally do care about what has been attributed to xxFP types. You can't tell someone that they are not who they really are.

OOHH and I should say that being xNFP or just xNFx doesn't really have anything to do with the list I made. It's just somehow xNFP gets stuck with such concepts. And it doesn't help that being forgetful, disorganized and "stuck in the clouds/head" is attributed to being called creative and non-conforming and not paying attention to sensory things (falsely equated to Ne). And don't get me started on the neuroscience about right brain = creative vs. left = logical/structured. No one is the scientific community deeply believes that. Also, I don't know much about the other neuroimaging work that says different types have different brain patterns... but one thing I have learned as a researcher... we bullshit ALOT just so we can tell the government/lobbyist that they should throw money at our research. A lot of the time, we don't even find strong patterns in our data. Just weak ones and then we jump on that shit because it's all we can get.
 

cascadeco

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Thou shalt be creative and creative.
Thou shalt use some kind of artistic medium to accomplish being unique and creative (such as being a writer or drawer or whatever).
Thou shalt expressive their creativity and uniqueness outwardly as to rid anyone (including yourself) of any doubt of how common they are (translation = get a youtube channel and be as obnoxious as possible. jkjkjk but serious).
Thou shalt NOT want to follow the crowd.
Thou shalt stick up for ones' own beliefs and values.
And finally, thou shalt complain about how unfair the world is and how it stifles the expression and understanding of the self.
Thou shalt have an EXTREME love of learning and want to learn everything ever.
.

tbh I think most of it is a Gen Y-and-beyond phase we're in, for a while around the time you're talking about, it was 'trendy' to be all of the above, it ties into the hipster stuff. In way you can kinda tie it in with culture norms? What's become more 'norm' and acceptable? It's just a totally different world than the 50's and 60's when more 'traditional' values were underway. And our modern world in some ways can demand more of the Ne, at least in terms of job expectations now, vs 50 years ago. I mean, many job descriptions online still have a lot of what your write above as desirable skillz. Just musing
 

thoughtlost

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tbh I think most of it is a Gen Y-and-beyond phase we're in, for a while around the time you're talking about, it was 'trendy' to be all of the above, it ties into the hipster stuff. In way you can kinda tie it in with culture norms? What's become more 'norm' and acceptable? It's just a totally different world than the 50's and 60's when more 'traditional' values were underway. And our modern world in some ways can demand more of the Ne, at least in terms of job expectations now, vs 50 years ago. Just musing

No, you're not just musing. You are correct (at least from my perspective you are correct). Unless you plan on being a public health specialist that wants to make sure the H1N1 doesn't become too big of a deal, then it's good to to follow the commandments that I just listed. Even in the computer service industry. You're not going to get a job at Google or other companies if you're not risk-taking and rule-breaking enough. My dad is an engineer and he is ISTJ... and I can tell that he hates the Ne culture that the computer industry has become. However, he is the kind of person who is able to pick up what is culturally acceptable and would adapt to that to be successful, if he was able to do life all over again.

Edit:: And I don't think it's just jobs that want us to use FiNe more; it has permeated other areas of life.

I am not sure what the cultural "coolness" factors are now, though. I am surrounded by activists/health/happiness/peace conscious people... so I'd assume that haha.

I am tying it into SJ cultural norms. However, now that I think about it, I am sure that xNFJ people mistype (in an honest way!) as xNFP so I wonder why and how. I know their stereotype is that they have a vision that they want to manifest outwardly, but maybe not all of them feel that way and mistype as xNFP. Maybe it would be similar?

edit:: I guess you could get a job at Google. companies always need people to make sure that orders are filled in correctly and the details are managed.
 

prplchknz

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can i say once again what turned me off to the NFP description was the whole not fitting in like it's worded in away that we go out of our way to not fit in. when for me i don't try to fit in nor do i try not to fit in i just do me, and where that falls in a group is great. and actually i prefer to fit in, which doesn't happen but i'm too lazy and clueless on figure out how to fit in because people are just weird. sorry but they are and i do care about people but i'm not gonna go out of my way to help them, if they want my help and come to me i'll try but honestly i doubt i'm able to do much. i dunno i don't like the rainbow stuff much that gets annoying and the whole omg i'm so ne i'm gonna make random connections i do that, but it's not to show how ne they are and they really aren't random like its not fucking word association which is what some people do. ok sometimes i do word association but i'm just having fun and who doesn't like word association? if you don't then you probably like math or some other icky subject.
 

1487610420

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Thou shalt use some kind of artistic medium to accomplish being unique and creative (such as being a writer or drawer or whatever).

 

Starry

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Actually, I thought 6 was the other enneagram type "common" to ENFP. I didn't read that it was enneagram 2. I could be wrong, though. One of the older members explained it to me in a PM that lots of 6w7s get typed as xNFP, when really they are XSFJ.


Yah, I am in agreement with the older member you were PMing with.
older :solidarity:


I do understand why, however, people often believe NFPs are 6s...I, myself, even mistyped as 6 for a while. Some INFP 4s (this is generally associated with 4 sp/sx) can suddenly become outwardly aggressive/confrontational which looks nearly identical to the counterphobia of the 6w5 sx (unless you take notice of the fact the 4s behavior in this regard is not fear based.) INFP 9s are connected to 6 by way of their stress point and like all 9s will present with 6 attachments and characteristics from time to time although it will most certainly be counterphobic behavior and actions that will cause others to question "9s are strictly conflict avoidant right? so..." <-Untrue.

ENFP 7w6's tie to 6 is an obvious one...but I would argue that the appearance and/or actual identification with 6w7 on the part of the ENFP stems from the fact that wings don't start to have a true impact on an individual until early adulthood...so right around the time most people will be formally introduced to personality theory in some way (academic/career counseling, workplace, etc.) and from there may take an interest to the extent of joining a site or local group. Wings are also thought to figure prominently when under stress which may be another time a person would be more likely to join a forum or group.

I was surprised when Hyjinx indicated having seen Robbin Williams typed as ESFJ because I have only seen him typed as ENP and 7w6...and yet still, I believe he was the former (actually Edgar said ESFJ as well but he is literally the only other person I've seen suggest such a thing.) I never, ever watched him and thought "wow, he's so spontaneous." No, I only ever wondered how much effort went into seeming so spontaneous. That was someone that was wielding Ne. That was also not someone that spent most of their formative years trying not to piss off "adults" by unknowingly starting to behave in a similar way.

^And you can feel that from him and it's what I mean when I say that something is being taken for granted. But this also comes by way of his own account. His story isn't a 7w6 story. IOW 7w6...whether they be quiet (quieter), thoughtful children or careless and "zany"...the common denominator appears to be that they were hopeful (optimistic) and relatively fearless...until that 6 wing hits...and they become afraid of everything it seems. Robbin Williams describes the exact opposite....a childhood of sadness and many fears...shyness and paranoia around others... until he became an adult and discovered comedy. <-That is what I would expect out of a 6w7.
 

OrangeAppled

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This was taken from a few different conversations and then elaborated on, so it's a bit jumbled up, and of course tl;dr.

To begin...

ESFJs are less "traditional" than they are prone to adhering to current cultural values. They adapt to embody external ideals and encourage others to adapt to these ideals. That is what Jung was trying to communicate. Lenore Thompson also says Je mentality adapts itself to the external world. Any anchoring is more related to Si, not Fe.

There is a current cultural valuing of quirkiness, being "weird", etc (in the US anyway). Just look at the mainstreaming of hipster-ism (not unlike how "alternative" went mainstream in the 90s). The stereotype of the traditional 1950s housewife for SFJs doesn't make sense in light of modern cultural values. When the MBTI was created and Gifts Differing written, cultural values were quite different from what they are today. What was progressive then is normal now.

ENFPs, IMO, are less concerned with shifting cultural values anyway than they are in exploring new ideas for their own sake. Promoting mass acceptance of new ideas is far more Fe, once the Fe type has been convinced of them, because they are the ones sensitive to lack of consensus or to feeling like they do not align with their society's values. So the stereotypical ENFP championing social progress is not really that correct. ENFPs tend to pursue ideas for their own sake, without the kind of sureness that it is fair or right, but just to see if it pans out. Yes, there may be the Fi ideals of an ENFP, but primarily these are iNtuitive types, not Feeling types. NFPs in general may focus on exploring a concept over "correcting" the immediate situation. This means ideals are neither traditional nor progressive, etc, because that entire framing is far more Fe.

It should also be noted that in Gifts Differing, Myers refers to all Feeling types as "idealistic". I am reminded of how my ESFJ grandmother broke family tradition by leaving their religion for another, because she wanted a consistency in standards that she didn't find with her family's religion. Feeling is rational, after all.

It is Keirsey who strictly applies idealism to NFs. While Keirsey's temperaments are very insightful as far as social roles types tend to fall into, it is a typical pattern, not prescriptive. The same goes for interaction styles. More on that later...

Basically, SFJs as a type can be kind of chameleon-like because of the way cultural values shift pretty rapidly. They can also seek and adapt to different value sets due to idealism, not merely accepting what they were raised with.

In addition, Jung and Van der Hoop noted that Si-dom can be hyper aware of irregularities, ie quirks, in themselves, and they may view these as "morbid". I think SJs sometimes describe themselves as weird, etc, because they are sort of nervous about it. It's as if acknowledging it before someone else notes it helps them control the perception of others. They usually have a far greater awareness of things like reputation.

I less often see NPs proclaiming their supposed weirdness because of rather minor quirks; it can almost be the opposite, where it doesn't dawn on us unless we get browbeaten with such feedback. This can happen to FPs too, and there is probably a higher sensitivity when you were totally oblivious and now receiving negative feedback.

In fairness, Si CAN be quirky, because it is quite an idiosyncratic view of what is REAL, but I see this more in the humor of ISTJs, perhaps due to tertiary Fi too. And Fi-dom CAN be composed and formal, especially enneagram 4s (shame and contrived image factors). A lot of criteria used to determine type are just common indicators, aka behavior that points to a likely mindset, but they are not definitive of the mindset. This criteria is not bad, and it often is very reliable, but it also gets over-simplified. Suddenly, all enthusiastic, spontaneous people are ENFPs and all sensitive, shy people are INFPs; but those traits are not exclusive to those types, nor even definitive of them.

Plus, everyone likes to think they are special (highly common for Millennials and younger) and many profiles are written by N types who can inadvertently make S types sound inferior.

I think some ISFJ 6s make for great pseudo NFPs too. ISFJs are commonly e6s, who can seem quite ambiverted and may feel like they are philosophical truth-seekers, which may give confusion over the I/E dimension. These types also don't want to feel "common" (6s are more hung up on being quirky than any INFP 4 because of authority issues). ISFJS and 6s are painted as quite common and sometimes as not having depth.



---


I think [the confusion stems from] the romanticizing of NFPs and 4s combined with sensor prejudice. People don't want to admit they find ESFJ 2s really attractive and likable, far more than the average NFP. The ESFJs they don't like are therefore ESFJ, but the ones they like must be ENFP! They do not type people correctly in reality, and this leads to an impression of types that is inaccurate.

Integration to 4 gives type 2 a literal connection to 4s. They also share heart triad issues, which 4s may articulate better, leading the 2 to thinking they are a 4. These 2s also like to appear "exotic" (sx 2s will mistype the most, because they are the seductive variety and want to seem mysterious, etc). The 2 also gets the 50s housewife stereotype, and they can be made out to sound shallow. The portrait of ESFJs and 2s as "not intellectual" may trigger inferior Ti sensitivities. But ENFPs are given more credit there, as are 4s and 7s.

They may mistype as 7 also, due to being in the positive thinking triad & perhaps due to having the get-things-going interaction style. When I read Naranjo, I saw how lots of ExFx types seem more 2 than 7 (if you ditch the "helper" tag, a misnomer for most 2s). I think 2 is under-typed and 7 over-typed for ExFx types. It is tricky when the person really is an ExFP though. You have to dig past surface behaviors and unearth the core motivations (anxiety or shame?).... but I digress.

I am not convinced all mistyped ENFPs who are 2s are ESFJ - some may be ENFJ. But the interaction style really helps clarify which is more likely. It is underused for typing and discovering how mistyping happens, so I bring it up a lot. ENFJs are in-charge types, but being the only Feelers in that category, they may not present the way the others do. I confused a previous boss for ENFP because of her interest in different perspectives, ideas and possibilities, but she was far more interested in consensus and objecting to strangeness than a typical ENFP. So I thought maybe she was ESFJ with strong Ne. However, in time it was clear to me she was "in-charge", and that what I was seeing was common to N, not just Ne. Why do I mention this? To show the tendency to take a few traits associated with one type and assume anyone with those traits must be that type, without considering how other types may show up similarly in that regard.

So continuing on with the confusion interaction styles can create.... ESFJs and ENFPs share the Get-Things-Going interaction style. ESFJs are the ONLY J in this category. Just as ENFJs may be the odd ones out as Feeling in-charge types, and that can make them appear as something else, so too with ESFJs. The GTG style sounds VERY P. There is a conflict then with a J mentality and a P associated style for ESFJs. Since their GTG approach may be quite different from the other GTG types, they may look more directive at times; other times, the tendency is to appear very P on the surface. Bring tertiary Ne into the mix, and voila! A pseudo ENFP who is super likable because they are way more socially attuned and inclined to creating harmonious connections over exploring new ideas. Even though the J mentality is there, it doesn't have the rigidness associated with Js, probably because it is Feeling.

Of course, this is not all or most ESFJs. The reason e2 is mentioned as well, in particular the sx subtype, is how this further carries them away from certain ESFJ stereotypes. Yet, they may not even identify as 2 because of its stereotypes. Not identifying with ESFJ stereotypes may be the stronger factor than identifying with ENFP. Perhaps if the type was portrayed less narrowly, these ESFJs would not be alienated from their type.

I've mentioned before how ENFP sounds like a cultural ideal for women (although in reality, it is not quite) - ideals which ESFJ 2s are going to form in relation to (their personalities form in relation to cultural ideas, for obvious reasons). This is why the 1950s housewife stereotype for SFJs is so off and leads to mistyping. I think you said some ESFJs are more ENFP than real ENFPs? I agree in many cases.

To explain that, consider this often posed question:
Does art imitate life or does life imitate art?
Well, both, right?
Who makes the art*? Certainly SFJs may be artists. But who is really making it? I wont say it is NFPs, although sometimes it may be, but it is usually not people characterized by creating/seeking consensus. The life it is imitating is the life of its creators, usually bohemian types who are ignoring consensus in favor of exploration. But when life imitates art....well, the influence of the art spreads and trickles down the values and ideas of its creators and shape the perspectives of its consumers. What it does, via repeated exposure in various forms, is normalize those values and ideas. It creates a sense of familiarity with them, so that they are no longer strange or scary, and then the shift towards them is quite natural and sometimes even seamless. Long before the revolution (that young SFJs may partake in) is the planting of seeds in the form of ideas. The people planting are expressing and exploring more than promoting. A few generations in, and even the most traditionally inclined SFJs may be converts.
So the crude way of saying this is some NFPs make the art to reflect themselves/the ideas they explore, and some ESFJs imitate that art, or they embody it and live it. But why NFPs over SFPs? I think its because NFs are viewed more seriously, for one. And why don't SFJs mistype as NFJs? Well, they do sometimes, but for different reasons.
*Using "art" in the broadest sense.

I think it should also be noted that this is also less about ESFJs mistyping themselves as it is about other people mistyping them. I agree with (I think it was) [MENTION=10714]Qlip[/MENTION] who said something along the lines of - when people identify with the wrong type, then maybe there is some need for it at the time. It's a part of their process, perhaps. I think the ego isn't ready to reveal itself to them, or something. What is the point of pointing fingers? So this post is not with that intention.
 

Doctor Cringelord

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 27, 2013
Messages
20,621
MBTI Type
I
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9w8
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sp/sx
Fuck yall I'm no esfj I can be no other type than ENFP 7. I ain't no zooey deschanel archetype.
 

Starry

Active member
Joined
May 22, 2010
Messages
6,103
I have been out of town... <-I just caught myself starting to provide an explanation that sounded "normal"... for why I haven't responded to people in this thread. I care about the people that hear what I'm trying to say through all of my *noise* because I know it is not easy. And so when I have an explanation that is not limited to "Ne and ADD - What's the diff?" I notice I will cling to it. I will let go of that today. (And I'm not trying to be stereotypical with the Ne/ADD comment. When I read descriptions of Ne dominance next to the symptoms of ADD and ADhD I honest to god see no difference.)

I'm just making a quick notation here in order to say that people's understanding of Fe is just as problematic as people's understanding of "Sensor".
 

Yama

Permabanned
Joined
Dec 1, 2014
Messages
7,684
MBTI Type
ESFJ
Enneagram
6w7
Instinctual Variant
so/sx
I'm just making a quick notation here in order to say that people's understanding of Fe is just as problematic as people's understanding of "Sensor".

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When descriptions of Fe are so problematic that an xxFJ has a hard time relating to them, coupled with the god awful SJ and sensor biases that plague many MBTI communities, it's no wonder people drop that ESFJ label like a hot potato and reach out for something so much less... ridiculed and despised. I actually think it's pretty brave and admirable for an ESFJ to actually openly associate themselves with the ESFJ type because of how much crap and stereotyping they must have to put up with. I mean, RandomINTP's opinion on ESFJs was laughable, but it's almost scary how that's... actually not far off from many (less-MBTI-educated) people's opinions.
 

OrangeAppled

Sugar Hiccup
Joined
Mar 20, 2009
Messages
7,626
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
4w5
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
Here is an sx 2 description from Beatrice Chestnut. Note how they are not people-pleasing helpers, but instead they "inspire" and "seduce" and "excite", etc, people as a way to draw them in and have those people fill their needs (ultimately a black hole for unconditional love that no other person can fill).




Note how 2s integrate with a focus on their own authentic individuality and acknowledging personal needs (as opposed to creating the "I gave up myself and become your fantasy/ideal, so now you owe me my needs" dynamic, which they may do somewhat subconsciously). I believe in even average levels the person will gain some awareness of how it is important for them to assert their genuine self because of how anger at abandoning it to embody a fantasy can grow (turning them 8ish - demanding and entitled and bullying people to meet their needs, often manipulatively or with "drama"). They may confuse this awareness as Fi and/or being core 4. I don't think these sx 2s always believe they are 4s, just that they confuse the 4 connection with Fi (as there are heavy, sometimes wrong associations with Fi and 4).




It is also worth noting that this type over all has heavy ties to Fe, so reading this can help to grasp how Fe can show up as not being about "harmonious relationships" or being a "hostess". It is not all selfless giving or adopting social values of appropriateness.
 

Dreamer

Potential is My Addiction
Joined
Jul 26, 2015
Messages
4,539
MBTI Type
ENFP
Enneagram
794
I have been out of town... <-I just caught myself starting to provide an explanation that sounded "normal"... for why I haven't responded to people in this thread. I care about the people that hear what I'm trying to say through all of my *noise* because I know it is not easy. And so when I have an explanation that is not limited to "Ne and ADD - What's the diff?" I notice I will cling to it. I will let go of that today. (And I'm not trying to be stereotypical with the Ne/ADD comment. When I read descriptions of Ne dominance next to the symptoms of ADD and ADhD I honest to god see no difference.)

I'm just making a quick notation here in order to say that people's understanding of Fe is just as problematic as people's understanding of "Sensor".

I'm curious about the ADHD/Ne dom thing myself. I was diagnosed with the stuff before I learned of MBTI, and even if someone were to tell me, "oh, you're just an Ne dom", that still doesn't make it any less difficult to fit into regular society. I can't sit still longer than five minutes before I start fidgeting or moving in my chair. I know Ne dominance and ADHD can look nearly exact, I always thought the same, but I'm sure there are people of other types with ADHD too. I wonder if there is any correlation to be found at all, anywhere? Is it an intuition thing? Not all ADHD folks are hyperactive, hmm...
 

thoughtlost

Honeyed Water
Joined
May 20, 2013
Messages
745
Enneagram
N/A
I'm curious about the ADHD/Ne dom thing myself. I was diagnosed with the stuff before I learned of MBTI, and even if someone were to tell me, "oh, you're just an Ne dom", that still doesn't make it any less difficult to fit into regular society. I can't sit still longer than five minutes before I start fidgeting or moving in my chair. I know Ne dominance and ADHD can look nearly exact, I always thought the same, but I'm sure there are people of other types with ADHD too. I wonder if there is any correlation to be found at all, anywhere? Is it an intuition thing? Not all ADHD folks are hyperactive, hmm...

If it means anything, I have not been diangosed, but a woman 20 years older than me says I behave exactly the same as those with adhd. She suggested that I get tested because it was affecting me in the workplace. Isfjs have NE last, so if this adhd and NE thing are correlated, then I would imagine that it can be applied with anyone with NE and not just enfps.

However, I don't know how I feel about connecting adhd to these personality theories quite yet.
 

AphroditeGoneAwry

failure to thrive
Joined
Feb 20, 2009
Messages
5,585
MBTI Type
INfj
Enneagram
451
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
If it means anything, I have not been diangosed, but a woman 20 years older than me says I behave exactly the same as those with adhd. She suggested that I get tested because it was affecting me in the workplace. Isfjs have NE last, so if this adhd and NE thing are correlated, then I would imagine that it can be applied with anyone with NE and not just enfps.

However, I don't know how I feel about connecting adhd to these personality theories quite yet.

oh wow. did not know we had correlated Ne to AdHD.

My enfp middle child had it starting from age 2 through 8 or 10. I had it in my toddler years, according to my mom. My mother had me on ritalin for a while, though I do not remember taking it.

My enfp just grew out of it. As did I, but I'm not sure when.
 
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