The Joker (the Dark Knight) Enneagram

[erg]

I've seen him typed as an 7w8, but I think he is a 4w3. What you guys think?

 

[draon9]

I see what you mean about that, I think 3w4 or 4w3 is in his tritype.

 

[erg]

I think he is 4w3 7w6 8w9 sx/sp. 4w3 is his main type.

 

[Starry]

What you guys think?

While I think it is entirely appropriate and more common than not to merely state a type related opinion on a typology website... we *are* in fact talking about one of the most obviously "head-typey sanguine-y, game-playing, possibility-spinning, narcissistic" characters out there in most people's minds.

And so I, at least, would be interested in hearing more by the way of reasoning before turning him over to the 4s...

 

[erg]

While I think it is entirely appropriate and more common than not to merely state a type related opinion on a typology website... we *are* in fact talking about one of the most obviously "head-typey sanguine-y, game-playing, possibility-spinning, narcissistic" characters out there in most people's minds.

And so I, at least, would be interested in hearing more by the way of reasoning before turning him over to the 4s...

That he is an emotional being. He is not head-based. It just seeps out of him (think of his sad stories -- how he got the scars). His whole motivation stems from a disenchantment of the world. We don't get to know what his true motivation is until his last scene in the movie when his plan to make the two boats explode each other fails. He wants to prove everyone is rotten, and that the world has failed him. This all sounds 4 to me.

Also, I think Heath Ledger was a 4w3 himself. Other joker portrayals might have been E7, but not heath's joker. Heath's joker is a 4.

 

[Riva]

Looks like the most obvious 7w8 in movies if we go by the 'let's call a spade a spade' typing. You need to give us more than 'disenchantment of the world.'

Leto's version was probably 8w7. He also seems 4ish, much more than Ledger did. Maybe Leto's version is a 4 sx/so.

 

[Starry]

That he is an emotional being. He is not head-based. It just seeps out of him (think of his sad stories -- how he got the scars). His whole motivation stems from a disenchantment of the world. We don't get to know what his true motivation is until his last scene in the movie when his plan to make the two boats explode each other fails. He wants to prove everyone is rotten, and that the world has failed him. This all sounds 4 to me.

Also, I think Heath Ledger was a 4w3 himself. Other joker portrayals might have been E7, but not heath's joker. Heath's joker is a 4.

Hmm. Okay, so I wasn't expecting this kind of response from you in that I imagined you would be addressing behaviors that could be attributed to 4s as there is some crossover between the two types...there are some known ways/instances that theorists have identified which gives the appearance of having taken on the other type's coping strategies when in truth the motivations remain quite different.

But here I'm thinking you may have a more general misunderstanding just because your argument for 4 couldn't have been more fundementally 7 had you tried.

Don't get me wrong...4s are narcissists as well...but of the covert variety. They are not concerned with how the world and all its inhabitants are failing *them*...like their classically, overtly narcissistic 7 cousins fear...they are preoccupied with how *they* might be failing the world and all its inhabitants. It's the 7s that become profoundly offended by the world and all its fucked-upness when it fails to provide us with what we are entitled to (whatever that may be). Many 7s that reach this place of disenchantment/forced sobriety can and do act very schitzo due to an unhealthy connection to e5 nihilism.

 

[erg]

This is funny. The 7's call him a 7 and the 4 calls him a 4

Hmm. Okay, so I wasn't expecting this kind of response from you in that I imagined you would be addressing behaviors that could be attributed to 4s as there is some crossover between the two types...there are some known ways/instances that theorists have identified which gives the appearance of having taken on the other type's coping strategies when in truth the motivations remain quite different.

But here I'm thinking you may have a more general misunderstanding just because your argument for 4 couldn't have been more fundementally 7 had you tried.

Don't get me wrong...4s are narcissists as well...but of the covert variety. They are not concerned with how the world and all its inhabitants are failing *them*...like their classically, overtly narcissistic 7 cousins fear...they are preoccupied with how *they* might be failing the world and all its inhabitants. It's the 7s that become profoundly offended by the world and all its fucked-upness when it fails to provide us with what we are entitled to (whatever that may be). Many 7s that reach this place of disenchantment/forced sobriety can and do act very schitzo due to an unhealthy connection to e5 nihilism.

I'm not convinced by your argument. I am not seeing 5 nihilism in him, I don't think there is any 5-ness due to connections in him. I am however seeing connection to 2 (when he relates the wife story). I think he is an unhealthy four integrating to 1-- that is, he is judging the world. Also, it is obvious that his motivation is that he hates the world, not that he hates he has failed the world. He thinks the world is fucked up.

4's and 7's are both of the "idealism motivation", but there are many differences between them. 4's are withdrawn types -- they go their own way. 7's are assertive types. Now think about how the Joker behaves, for example in the opening sequence of the bank robbery. He is very evasive, he does not lead the robbery but acts sort of a behind the scenes catalyst for what he has set in motion.

4's have turbulent emotion, whereas 7's have positive outlook emotion. Now what does sound more like this joker?

 

[cascadeco]

That he is an emotional being. He is not head-based. It just seeps out of him (think of his sad stories -- how he got the scars). His whole motivation stems from a disenchantment of the world. We don't get to know what his true motivation is until his last scene in the movie when his plan to make the two boats explode each other fails. He wants to prove everyone is rotten, and that the world has failed him. This all sounds 4 to me.

Also, I think Heath Ledger was a 4w3 himself. Other joker portrayals might have been E7, but not heath's joker. Heath's joker is a 4.

I disagree. I don't think 4's DO anything to 'prove' the world is rotten. They just go into a self loathing internal abyss when unhealthy. 4's are preoccupied with being apart from 'the rest', and it's a shameful and self judging route they go down, vs a blaming others route. 4's blame themselves for something that's 'broken' inside and being different, vs everyone else being at fault. They may think other people suck and judge them so as to prop themselves up, but it's really just to try to cover up the actual self judging and envy. The 4 will sit and disintegrate into an internal mire, the 7 will externally combust and destroy.

 

[erg]

I disagree. I don't think 4's DO anything to 'prove' the world is rotten. They just go into a self loathing internal abyss when unhealthy. 4's are preoccupied with being apart from 'the rest', and it's a shameful and self judging route they go down, vs a blaming others route. 4's blame themselves for something that's 'broken' inside and being different, vs everyone else being at fault. They may think other people suck and judge them so as to prop themselves up, but it's really just to try to cover up the actual self judging and envy. The 4 will sit and disintegrate into an internal mire, the 7 will externally combust and destroy.

I have been in an unhealthy state similar to the joker, and I did not behave in that way. Perhaps it has to do with having an 8 fix. A 4 with a 9 fix for example, might match what you have described.

Moreover, an unhealthy seven will just become more fixated on their addictions, being entertained, and avoiding pain. This does not match the joker (especially avoiding pain).

 

[cascadeco]

I have been in an unhealthy state similar to the joker, and I did not behave in that way. Perhaps it has to do with having an 8 fix. A 4 with a 9 fix for example, might match what you have described.

Moreover, an unhealthy seven will just become more fixated on their addictions, being entertained, and avoiding pain. This does not match the joker (especially avoiding pain).

I just don't think the character/caricature the Joker represents is a 4. (I mean I could see the joker as a highly counterphobic 6 before a 4). I'm also not one who really puts a lot of weight on tritype explanations, (I don't think we need to look beyond our core to address and understand our motivations) so that doesn't honestly add any convincing rationale for me. But I'm really not invested, just thought I'd share my view and ofc everyone else is entitled to their own.

I can't speak obviously as to what it's like to actually BE a 7, so can't comment on your thoughts on that. [MENTION=10082]Starry[/MENTION], [MENTION=22067]riva[/MENTION] or others would have to confirm or deny what a truly unhealthy 7 will actually do. I do know 7's are highly emotional and can be complex in that realm, however. Definitely not all sunshine and roses and happy avoidance when not in a great place.

 

[erg]

I just don't think the character/caricature the Joker represents is a 4. (I mean I could see the joker as a highly counterphobic 6 before a 4). I'm also not one who really puts a lot of weight on tritype explanations, (I don't think we need to look beyond our core to address and understand our motivations) so that doesn't honestly add any convincing rationale for me. But I'm really not invested, just thought I'd share my view and ofc everyone else is entitled to their own.

I can't speak obviously as to what it's like to actually BE a 7, so can't comment on your thoughts on that. [MENTION=10082]Starry[/MENTION], [MENTION=22067]riva[/MENTION] or others would have to confirm or deny what a truly unhealthy 7 will actually do. I do know 7's are highly emotional and can be complex in that realm, however. Definitely not all sunshine and roses and happy avoidance when not in a great place.

I've noticed that your understanding of the types is very "by the book". Like, that you haven't met examples of the types in real life and checked for yourself how they are in reality. Tritype is very important, because there is a whole world of difference between say a 4-6-9, and a 4-5-8, for example.

 

[cascadeco]

I've noticed that your understanding of the types is very "by the book". Like, that you haven't met examples of the types in real life and checked for yourself how they are in reality. Tritype is very important, because there is a whole world of difference between say a 4-6-9, and a 4-5-8, for example.

How funny. Regarding tritype, I've seen arguments presented that it's not in fact relevant or even part of the original ennegram and how it's meant to be used, it's just an additional layer of theory that people assume has validity even though it very well may not. But sure, if we're playing by the tritype-is-totally-valid playbook, of course a 469 will differ from a 458. I merely question the Validity of it and think we can glean our actual core drivers from our core type. iow you can justify pretty much anything for any type if you bring in tritype. And I think 4's fundamentally have the same sorts of issues and ways of downward spiralling, just as 7's do, just as 9's do.

 

[Starry]

This is funny. The 7's call him a 7 and the 4 calls him a 4

What 4s where? (please don't say PersC). I have been doing this for a while and not once have I ever seen a 4 identify with the Joker.

What's funny or not depending on your sense of humor is how many people think they understand the enneagram but totally don't. <-Okay, no...what's funny is how many people mistype themselves as 4. 7s that...like you...misunderstand 7 and the concept of positive outlook...often come to believe they are just too *emotionally turbulent* and *intellectually deep* to be such a superficial type...these guys often mistype as 4s.

Still...if a self-proclaimed 4 identifies with the Joker...even the Heath Ledger Joker...that person is far more likely to be a mistyped 9 haha. (check out 9 and see what you think).

I'm not convinced by your argument. I am not seeing 5 nihilism in him, I don't think there is any 5-ness due to connections in him. I am however seeing connection to 2 (when he relates the wife story). I think he is an unhealthy four integrating to 1-- that is, he is judging the world. Also, it is obvious that his motivation is that he hates the world, not that he hates he has failed the world. He thinks the world is fucked up.

4's and 7's are both of the "idealism motivation", but there are many differences between them. 4's are withdrawn types -- they go their own way. 7's are assertive types. Now think about how the Joker behaves, for example in the opening sequence of the bank robbery. He is very evasive, he does not lead the robbery but acts sort of a behind the scenes catalyst for what he has set in motion.

4's have turbulent emotion, whereas 7's have positive outlook emotion. Now what does sound more like this joker?

Just out of curiosity...why do you suppose one type would develop "turbulent emotion" while another would develop "positive emotion"? If we are talking about coping strategies here...why would these develop? What would these be in response to? (not really looking for an answer here but huh right?)

 

[erg]

Your reply is so lame, biased, and devoid of knowledge and logic that I don't feel like responding. But anyway...

What 4s where? (please don't say PersC). I have been doing this for a while and not once have I ever seen a 4 identify with the Joker.

What's funny or not depending on your sense of humor is how many people think they understand the enneagram but totally don't. <-Okay, no...what's funny is how many people mistype themselves as 4. 7s that...like you...misunderstand 7 and the concept of positive outlook...often come to believe they are just too *emotionally turbulent* and *intellectually deep* to be such a superficial type...these guys often mistype as 4s.

Still...if a self-proclaimed 4 identifies with the Joker...even the Heath Ledger Joker...that person is far more likely to be a mistyped 9 haha. (check out 9 and see what you think).

Just out of curiosity...why do you suppose one type would develop "turbulent emotion" while another would develop "positive emotion"? If we are talking about coping strategies here...why would these develop? What would these be in response to? (not really looking for an answer here but huh right?)

Positive outlook means what it means. It means that people with it are likely to avoid negative emotions. This is in sharp contrast to TDK's joker who is a walking negative emotion.

I have seen people besides me type him 4w3, and these people are not 4's. There is this 5w6 guy who is knowledgeable about the enneagram that has typed him so. In fact, I saw this typing before I had discovered my own type (I thought I was a 3w4 back then), and thought -- "hey this is an interesting typing". Then later I learned more about enneagram and it made perfect sense to me.

I don't understand what you're asking me.

 

[Starry]

Your reply is so lame, biased, and devoid of knowledge and logic that I don't feel like responding. But anyway...

wtf?

Yah...there's nothing to be embarrassed about here. In no way should you feel embarrassed about yourself or like there's something wrong with you or anything for having taken this to the level of breaking the forum rules over the Joker's MBTI.

Positive outlook means what it means. It means that people with it are likely to avoid negative emotions. This is in sharp contrast to TDK's joker who is a walking negative emotion.

I have seen people besides me type him 4w3, and these people are not 4's. There is this 5w6 guy who is knowledgeable about the enneagram that has typed him so. In fact, I saw this typing before I had discovered my own type (I thought I was a 3w4 back then), and thought -- "hey this is an interesting typing". Then later I learned more about enneagram and it made perfect sense to me.

^With these kind of powerful arguments...it makes perfect sense why you insulted mine.

I don't understand what you're asking me.

Clearly.

 

[erg]

I've insulted your argument, not you. I don't think I've broken any forum rules. If I were to insult you I would have said that it is really the move of a fool and counter-productive for any discussion to suggest that someone else who you are debating with is mistyped, or insinuate that they don't know enneagram properly (which is more likely your case).

 

[Starry]

I've insulted your argument, not you. I don't think I've broken any forum rules. If I were to insult you I would have said that it is really the move of a fool and counter-productive for any discussion to suggest that someone else who you are debating with is mistyped, or insinuate that they don't know enneagram properly (which is more likely your case).

Oh did that feel especially threatening to your ego? I do apologize then.



I actually wasn't trying to insinuate anything with regards to your type so way to take things personally. I was trying to address a very serious problem as it pertains to many people's understanding of the enneagram and the ongoing generation of shit misinformation...in no way was it meant to be personal...I was responding to where you wrote 4s think he's 4. But your reaction does cinch it and so here's an example of what I'm describing --> it doesn't matter that nearly everyone in the universe thinks the Joker is a 7w8...I know he's a 4w3 because I'm a 4w3...oh also a knowledgeable 5w6 says this.


Here's a hint... if you feel especially proud and have an ego investment in your enneagram type...so much so that you react defensively to...imaginary insinuations regarding you being mistyped... So much so you react defensively to the possibility some imaginary character isn't your type...

If the enneagram makes you feel good...then you are doing it wrong.

 

[erg]

Oh did that feel especially threatening to your ego? I do apologize then.



I actually wasn't trying to insinuate anything with regards to your type so way to take things personally. I was trying to address a very serious problem as it pertains to many people's understanding of the enneagram and the ongoing generation of shit misinformation...in no way was it meant to be personal...I was responding to where you wrote 4s think he's 4. But your reaction does cinch it and so here's an example of what I'm describing --> it doesn't matter that nearly everyone in the universe thinks the Joker is a 7w8...I know he's a 4w3 because I'm a 4w3...oh also a knowledgeable 5w6 says this.


Here's a hint... if you feel especially proud and have an ego investment in your enneagram type...so much so that you react defensively to...imaginary insinuations regarding you being mistyped... So much so you react defensively to the possibility some imaginary character isn't your type...

If the enneagram makes you feel good...then you are doing it wrong.

I'm just not interested in this sort of discussion. Instead of saying how wrong those that think he is a 4 are because they are probably doing bad enneagram, or mistyped themselves, why don't you bring arguments for why you think he is a 7?

The point of that 5w6 dude that typed him 4w3 should be clear: he is a neutral character. I don't claim that the joker is a 4w3 because I am one and as that he has to be be. That seems more like your argument, because you haven't brought any evidence whatsoever of why he has to be a 7. I am not that invested, but untruth and veiled attacks on my persona simply piss me off.

If you finally provide some evidence, remember that we are talking about TDK's joker here. The original joker from comics, the one from the animated series, and from Tim Burton movies is probably a 7, but IMO TDK's joker is not.

 

[Riva]

If the enneagram makes you feel good...then you are doing it wrong.

^ this

When you finally 'realize' your enneagram type, you wouldn't feel 'wow this is awesome, I am a E X.' You are most likely to think 'oh no eww, i am this and i can't deny it anymore.' Cus enneagrams are closely related to your strongest fears.

I wonder though whether this (my own comment) applies to E7s cus i feel mostly great to be an E7. Now the moments i consider e9 to be my type, i feel like crap.