Oh God, lets talk about God.

[Avocado]

Eh, sometimes we just have to think these things through before making blanket statements.

Thus if we follow the logic then the statement "In most cases religions do more harm than good" is not supported very well. I think we can say "In some cases, religions do more harm than good" and I'd challenge anyone to refute that. However, that doesn't mean the opposite is true that in most cases religions do more good than harm either. On an overall scale what's good and what's harmful is subjective to the individuals/groups involved. In person A's life religion does way more good than harm because maybe it was their faith that helped them get over a terrible drug addiction? In person B's life religion does way more harm than good because maybe their religion forbade them from getting a blood transfusion for child which resulted in the child's death.

I knew people when I was a kid that needed blood but died because of religion.

 

[ZNP-TBA]

I knew people when I was a kid that needed blood but died because of religion.

I know someone who almost died. Her family is Jehovah's Witness. Needless to say after the experience she became more of an agnostic.

 

[Avocado]

I know someone who almost died. Her family is Jehovah's Witness. Needless to say after the experience she became more of an agnostic.

Jehovah's Witness is my background too.

 

[ceecee]

I get what you're saying and within that meaning I agree. However, one can misinterpret this is as "keep all ideas you have to yourself." It's a fact of life many people aren't going to share your views but why shouldn't they be discussed anyways? I think everyone shutting up just to avoid interpersonal conflict is lame. I get that's not what you're saying though so I'm just mentioning this as a general comment.

The title of this thread is - let's talk about God. I was talking about people talking about God. I didn't think that required clarification but since you stated that it may - I'm talking about people discussing their views about God and religion with uninterested and unsuspecting people and frankly, thinking they are entitled to do so.

 

[ZNP-TBA]

Jehovah's Witness is my background too.

From birth or did your family convert later?

 

[ZNP-TBA]

The title of this thread is - let's talk about God. I was talking about people talking about God. I didn't think that required clarification but since you stated that it may - I'm talking about people discussing their views about God and religion with uninterested and unsuspecting people and frankly, thinking they are entitled to do so.

I see no problem with bringing up God in a discussion so long as it doesn't cross the line into harassment.

 

[Avocado]

From birth or did your family convert later?

I was born into it and my great great grandmother was one of the first Jehovah's Witnesses, which were called bible students at that time. I would have been 5th generation if I hadn't woken up to how deploreable the religion's morality was and how brazenly anti-science it was. Unfortunately, since JW's have no holidays and forbid celebrating anything outside of an annual Eucharist (for the elect within the congregation only), there is no way I can be a "cultural" JW since there is really no worthwhile culture to keep.

 

[ZNP-TBA]

I was born into it and my great great grandmother was one of the first Jehovah's Witnesses, which were called bible students at that time. I would have been 5th generation if I hadn't woken up to how deploreable the religion's morality was and how brazenly anti-science it was. Unfortunately, since JW's have no holidays and forbid celebrating anything outside of an annual Eucharist (for the elect within the congregation only), there is no way I can be a "cultural" JW since there is really no worthwhile culture to keep.

Sorry you went through that experience. I know some ex-JWs and they were excommunicated from all their friends and most of their families. They basically became 'non-persons' since the congregation (again, even family) believed the 'apostate' was tainted by Satan and has become 'worldly.' Sound familiar?

Granted JW and Christian apostasy isn't as brutal as Islamic doctrine ( death sentence) but it's gotta be shitty to be excommunicated from most things you've ever known.

When I confessed my skepticism in the god belief some members of my Catholic family were disheartened and not exactly joyous but it was mostly just a couple uncomfortable conversations and awkward dinners but nothing too drastic.

 

[ZNP-TBA]

I'm not sure I understand what [MENTION=4050]ceecee[/MENTION] is saying, however it's not "avoiding interpersonal conflict therefore lame," I believe God literally becomes a crutch to steer clear of some of your worst fears including fear of death, so calling it "lame interpersonal conflict" is rather undermining how deep this goes. I am not religious but I don't think people are intentionally being "lame," they are acting from a very deep fear. [MENTION=25403]ZNP-TBA[/MENTION]

Nobody is clairvoyant (at least in my view nobody is) so it's hard to know what's a 'trigger' for people. But if someone brings up a viewpoint or opinion to the public (i.e. interpersonal) but expects to be insulated from scrutiny or criticism in that way then it is lame. If it's deep and you have a million triggers then keep it internal which is is where I agree with [MENTION=4050]ceecee[/MENTION].

 

[Avocado]

Sorry you went through that experience. I know some ex-JWs and they were excommunicated from all their friends and most of their families. They basically became 'non-persons' since the congregation (again, even family) believed the 'apostate' was tainted by Satan and has become 'worldly.' Sound familiar?

Granted apostasy isn't as brutal as Islamic doctrine ( death sentence) but it's gotta be shitty to be excommunicated from most things you've ever known.

When I confessed my skepticism in the god belief some members of my Catholic family were disheartened and not exactly joyous but it was mostly just a couple uncomfortable conversations and awkward dinners but nothing too drastic.

Yes, it does. Of course, I also feel like I hatched out of a pod at 18 with no life skills, so either way I'm fucked. I somewhat liked learning new things in school and answering questions, so I'm hoping I will be a passable teacher. I'm not passionate about it, but it's better than no job or any other job I can think of, so I'm going to go with it.

 

[Typh0n]

I'm not sure I understand what [MENTION=4050]ceecee[/MENTION] is saying, however it's not "avoiding interpersonal conflict therefore lame," I believe God literally becomes a crutch to steer clear of some of your worst fears including fear of death, so calling it "lame interpersonal conflict" is rather undermining how deep this goes. I am not religious but I don't think people are intentionally being "lame," they are acting from a very deep fear. [MENTION=25403]ZNP-TBA[/MENTION]

There is something worse than the fear of death and that is the fear of going to hell(Christian hell). And its Christianity which has created this fear.

But I think these are not the main fears that motivate people into Abrahamic faiths, I think it is mainly through fear of social exclusion that motivates people to take up belief in these faiths. Take Islam. Women in conservative muslim communties are afraid of not walking around scarved or their daughters walking around scarved because the men tell them their daughter will end up as a prostitute. It goes too far.

Yes, you have your fears and so does everyone else, how does resorting to telling a woman her child daughter will be a prostitute solve anything with respect to those fears? Seems like abrahamic religions do alot to irritate our fears, not address them.

 

[Typh0n]

Is fear of social exclusion really separated from other fears? I could be wrong but I do wonder if psychological "lack of identity" invokes a fear of death. Or separation from a source of nurturance (society, family, god, etc).

Well, I don't know, but thats not the point. The point is that these religions, especially when politicised or institutionalized (which always requires political support) do not address people's fears but use them towards destructive ends.

 

[ceecee]

I'm not sure I understand what [MENTION=4050]ceecee[/MENTION] is saying, however it's not "avoiding interpersonal conflict therefore lame," I believe God literally becomes a crutch to steer clear of some of your worst fears including fear of death, so calling it "lame interpersonal conflict" is rather undermining how deep this goes. I am not religious but I don't think people are intentionally being "lame," they are acting from a very deep fear. [MENTION=25403]ZNP-TBA[/MENTION]

I didn't say anything about "avoiding interpersonal conflict therefore lame," But it's not my problem if another person sees their religious views as acting from a very deep fear. Ok? So? I don't think it's lame. I don't care what the motivations for having religion in their life comes from.

 

[ceecee]

Um the interpersonal thing was in reference to what ZNP said

Um, try using the quote function and we won't have these issues.

 

[Cloudpatrol]

[MENTION=25694]evilrubberduckie[/MENTION] { thanks for making a vid. You are utterly engaging! }


For most of my life I thought Mexican cuisine looked like this:

It was only in the last year that I realized, this is actually a more accurate representation:

If had complete paradigm shift & am still figuring out how to properly source TACO’s... I am hesitant to conclude I have THE final answer - on broad spiritual questions - when even basic beliefs can shift and be tested.


Thus, I am also skeptical of anyone who declares with absolute certainty: there is or there is not a God or after-life. It is a topic lacking in both empirical & heuristic evidence


That being said, I am open to logical discussion and if I sense that someone’s strong beliefs are not solely motivated by sentiment - they may even be able to persuade me along the lines of their reasoning.


Everything that I am personally acquainted with in tangible life has been produced by someone or something. That makes me think. On the other hand, everything I am acquainted with also has a beginning and end. That also makes me think.


Then, when considering the universe and broader strokes…the implications are even more varied and interesting. We still do not completely understand many things or even know how to replicate things in the natural world that we observe. All food for thought.


As for religion? I don’t subscribe that religion’s are exempt from critical analysis. Some have been specifically mentioned here.


I currently have an article on the back burner, that reveals anecdotal evidence of the Catholic Church and local business being in coercion in 50's Quebec. That the church would insist on large families (no birth control allowed) and then take away people’s homes and jobs if they did not give the annual church contribution.


I have watched historical footage of religious leader’s laughing as children were shot into a pit and other video’s of clergy blessing armaments. Buddhism and other ‘religion’s of peace’ also have sordid details…. BUT, religious precepts have also guided people for good and continue to exert an influence on popular culture.


Can Atheists also be good, moral people? Of course.

On one hand I think people would find comfort in the idea of God and everything that suggests. On the other hand, I think humans like to be independent and live as they please, not beholden to imposed values


Bottom line: A work in progress. Great men of science and thought have struggled with these questions for ages. It doesn’t bother me to still be open and pondering…

 

[Mole]

Thus, I am also skeptical of anyone who declares with absolute certainty: there is or there is not a God or after-life. It is a topic lacking in both empirical & heuristic evidence

We cannot declare the position and momentum of anything, yet by applying mathematical statistics we have our most accurate representation of reality in quantum mechanics.

And we can apply the same mathematical statisics to the existence of any supernatual being.

And when we use mathematical statistics to analyse the vast amount of empirical evidence, we find the existence of any supernatual being is close to zero.

It is not zero, that is true, any more than the absolute position and momentum of anything is known. However it is so close to zero, any sensible person knows they cannot know the absolute postion and momentum of anything, although we can measure the world to the accuracy of ten decimal places and counting. In the same way we cannot say with absolute certainty that supernatural being don't exist, but we can say that the chance of any supernatual being existing is approaching zero.

However we don't believe in the existence of a supernatual being for rational reasons based on evidence, rather we believe in a supernatural being when we are in a trance and our critical faculties are alseep for a while.

We believe in a supernatural being in the same way we believe in a movie. To believe in a movie we suspend our disbelief, and when we believe in a supernatual being, we also suspend our disbelief.

And more germane, we suspend our disbelief when we believe in mbti.

 

[Avocado]

[MENTION=25694]evilrubberduckie[/MENTION] { thanks for making a vid. You are utterly engaging! }


For most of my life I thought Mexican cuisine looked like this:

It was only in the last year that I realized, this is actually a more accurate representation:

If had complete paradigm shift & am still figuring out how to properly source TACO’s... I am hesitant to conclude I have THE final answer - on broad spiritual questions - when even basic beliefs can shift and be tested.


Thus, I am also skeptical of anyone who declares with absolute certainty: there is or there is not a God or after-life. It is a topic lacking in both empirical & heuristic evidence


That being said, I am open to logical discussion and if I sense that someone’s strong beliefs are not solely motivated by sentiment - they may even be able to persuade me along the lines of their reasoning.


Everything that I am personally acquainted with in tangible life has been produced by someone or something. That makes me think. On the other hand, everything I am acquainted with also has a beginning and end. That also makes me think.


Then, when considering the universe and broader strokes…the implications are even more varied and interesting. We still do not completely understand many things or even know how to replicate things in the natural world that we observe. All food for thought.


As for religion? I don’t subscribe that religion’s are exempt from critical analysis. Some have been specifically mentioned here.


I currently have an article on the back burner, that reveals anecdotal evidence of the Catholic Church and local business being in coercion in 50's Quebec. That the church would insist on large families (no birth control allowed) and then take away people’s homes and jobs if they did not give the annual church contribution.


I have watched historical footage of religious leader’s laughing as children were shot into a pit and other video’s of clergy blessing armaments. Buddhism and other ‘religion’s of peace’ also have sordid details…. BUT, religious precepts have also guided people for good and continue to exert an influence on popular culture.


Can Atheists also be good, moral people? Of course.

On one hand I think people would find comfort in the idea of God and everything that suggests. On the other hand, I think humans like to be independent and live as they please, not beholden to imposed values


Bottom line: A work in progress. Great men of science and thought have struggled with these questions for ages. It doesn’t bother me to still be open and pondering…

How do you feel about the ancient greek school known as Epicureanism? I fimd something of a kinship with Epicurus, and I believe if the church in Rome hadn't driven Epicureanism to extinction, our world would have been richer with its influence. Luckily, Epicurus's texts were found preserved in the ruins of Pompeii, hermetically sealed by many feet of volcanic ash.

 

[soremfinger]

I have no way of realizing what God is but something certainly tipped the first domino.

 

[Empyrean]

I'm extremely suspicious of the word 'God' due to its etymological history.

I dislike gender-biased terms to describe this ultimately ineffable thing.

I call 'it' (even call it an it is a misnomer, since it's not a thing, entity, or object) the Absolute.

Totality of Everything.

 

[Mole]

I have no way of realizing what God is but something certainly tipped the first domino.

As we read this particles are coming into existence and going out of existence from nothing. And these particles are measurable. So the metaphor of dominos does not apply to the real world.

And so the metaphor of God the domino master is also inappropriate.