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WTF Hollywood?!

Beorn

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"Conservative" in the sense that they're cautious, they play things safe. Safe = simply stories starring pretty people.

Starcrash added "backwards looking" which has a negative connotation and that's why I presumed more than the general meaning of the word.

Why not contribute an opinion instead of a worthless post like this after we came to an agreement?

Edit: Now I remember what I was thinking. My point wasn't talking about political conservatism. But, just going against the idea of them being safe. Because the first thing that came to my mind was the decrease in pointless nudity in PG-13 and R movies which had less to do with being safe but just expanding the markets of their films when internet porn had decreased the demand for sex in films. It had nothing to do with being safe it was merely a matter of a shift in what the market wanted.
 

93JC

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Starcrash added "backwards looking" which has a negative connotation and that's why I presumed more than the general meaning of the word.

Why not contribute an opinion instead of a worthless post like this after we came to an agreement?

... says the hypocrite who waltzed in the proverbial door for no other reason than to remind us all that "Hollywood is not 'conservative'." "Backwards-looking" is a general meaning of the word.

I contributed a relevant post long before you posted in this thread. I guess I shouldn't be surprised you glossed over it, as you're wont to do: there was nothing in it to become unnecessarily defensive about.

Carry on with your "worthwhile" posts...
 

Totenkindly

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"Conservative" in the sense that they're cautious, they play things safe. Safe = simply stories starring pretty people.

It's about money. Only in money-obsessed Hollywood could avengers 2 be considered financially a failure. Anyway, that means there's not as much risk taken to stretch roles and expectations.
 

ceecee

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I liked MacBeth the best out of all the ones I've been exposed to. Did you know there was actually a king of Scotland named MacBeth?

This may possibly be my favorite Macbeth of all time. We'll see but it looks more like what it should look like. Marion Cotillard plays the shit out of bad and crazy.



Nothing against the original because it's one of my all time favorites but I wish they would redo The Lion In Winter. Only because I have good ideas for it. Obviously the movie and play are fiction but anyone who knows the story could see it happening. The TV show Empire is also based on the play.
 

Beorn

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... says the hypocrite who waltzed in the proverbial door for no other reason than to remind us all that "Hollywood is not 'conservative'." "Backwards-looking" is a general meaning of the word.

I contributed a relevant post long before you posted in this thread. I guess I shouldn't be surprised you glossed over it, as you're wont to do: there was nothing in it to become unnecessarily defensive about.

Carry on with your "worthwhile" posts...

You had plenty of time to read my edit. I don't know why you ignored it. I suppose I should have also stuck the first sentence. I somehow believed your implied characterization of my post over my actual intentions.
 

windoverlake

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Basically this is a "what the hell people? is this what you want girls to grow up aiming for? that strength = asskicking instead of that we can overcome obstacles and ourselves to make something better?"

this is not a debate on feminism or men's rights or what have you... I really don't want to hear about divorces, custody or pay differences here because it's not what I'm asking about... I'm simply curious as to what the fuck is up with movie people

Movie people are fucked up. The industry is full of people who have issues. There a lot of people running amok who have undiagnosed personality disorders, but the industry is dysfunctional so it's a place where unhealthy behaviour is normalised, and rewarded.

Extremely limited attention spans are the norm, and if they're not numbers people who are projecting for profits, then they have little to no ability to think of long-term consequences. Most of these people see the job as a game, and many are bitter because they themselves were once unsuccessful/unlucky writers or directors. Lots of drug use and alcohol consumption, and both are socially acceptable in Hollywood circles. Lots of unhappiness and addiction and despair, though. Many of those who decide what gets made or not are unhealthy people and their job becomes a drug or a coping mechanism. The bigger the project, the bigger the gamble, the bigger the potential loss-potential profit = the bigger the high.

They're not thinking in the 'bigger' ways, though. It's also not encouraged. It's pretty rare, in general, to find people who are living towards some kind of larger principle. If Hollywood thinks about society at all, it's to see them as a target audience. Or they might think about them when they're reminded of them, like when some nut with a gun walks into a movie theatre and starts shooting. But of course they don't think there's anything wrong with depicting violence and cruelty in the movies because 'it's just a movie'. Besides, unbalanced workaholics with sociopathic tendencies don't usually take responsibility upon themselves. They just go home, meditate for 20 minutes, then take a sedative and go to bed.

Re. Ellen Ripley:

+100

Ellen Ripley is such a fantastic character. So well-written, but also really well-played by Sigourney Weaver. It was a perfect storm type of situation. I love both films, but I like the second a bit more because it's all Ripley. I like Ripley in the first film, but I love her in the second.

Hollywood is kind of conservative and backwards looking, despite what every inspirational Oscars tribute segment about african americans or women in film would have us believe.

The whole awards thing is collective self-adulation, but those tribute segments are the portion of the evening's festivities when they hand out psychological pacifiers. The tribute part is there, on the screen, but there's not much sincerity or appreciation during those tributes, and I'll bet most people are leaving their seats to use the toilet or visit the bar. I wonder if Hollywood sometimes collectively feels an itch, perhaps a psychological irritant which makes them feel bad for being who & what they are. Only they're not aware of why they feel bad; they just feel bad and they don't like it. So they create these token tributes to temporarily assuage their discomfort. I just see it as a way for them to make them feel good about themselves. "Look, you can't call us sexist/racist/____, we did a tribute!" It's temporary and insufficient, but so are they.
 

windoverlake

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Nothing against the original because it's one of my all time favorites but I wish they would redo The Lion In Winter. Only because I have good ideas for it. Obviously the movie and play are fiction but anyone who knows the story could see it happening. The TV show Empire is also based on the play.

Write it!
 

BadOctopus

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I can't believe no one has mentioned Marge Gunderson from Fargo. In a movie full of incompetent men, she's the one person who calmly takes charge and gets things done. All while being hugely pregnant.
 

Crabs

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Basically this is a "what the hell people? is this what you want girls to grow up aiming for? that strength = asskicking instead of that we can overcome obstacles and ourselves to make something better?"

I'm not sure it's an issue of gender. The "strength = asskicking" thing seems to apply to men as well. It's hard for me to imagine what a feminist movie would look like without understanding its opposite to compare and contrast to. What does a masculinist film look like? The lack of characterization is a common pitfall of many action films.

Most movies involve a protagonist overcoming adversity. There are plenty of female characters who do that. Ellie Sattler avoided getting eaten by velociraptors on numerous occasions. She even managed to turn the power back on after a rather suspenseful jog through the jungle.

Although, considering that all of the dinosaurs were female and all of their victims were male, I suppose Jurassic Park could be viewed as a feminist movie of sorts; that, or MRA fearmongering (see...this is what happens when you don't keep women under control.)
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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This may possibly be my favorite Macbeth of all time. We'll see but it looks more like what it should look like. Marion Cotillard plays the shit out of bad and crazy.


Do you mean in terms of historical accuracy? It looks like it might be worth a watch.

Nothing against the original because it's one of my all time favorites but I wish they would redo The Lion In Winter. Only because I have good ideas for it. Obviously the movie and play are fiction but anyone who knows the story could see it happening. The TV show Empire is also based on the play.

I saw the film version with Katherine Hepburn and found it really interesting. Talk about an unhappy marriage.
 

EcK

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It kind of annoys me that most time that a movie is haled as being "feminist" it tends to have the female characters (or at least the protagonist) going around beating people and killing them and I really don't get how that's particularly pro-HUMAN, let alone pro feminist :thinking:
Well, let's start with basics -- I think alot of the most vocal 'feminists' today are just sexists, and no 'reverse sexism' is not a thing because it's sexist in itself to assume that a woman would be a reverse sexist, as if men were the 'only real sexists'.

I guess, for example, a 'violent movie' where women were 'violent' could be in a way deemed 'feminist' in its original meaning : an equal treatment of women to men and vice-versa, in this case, in action movies. Were a woman would also be a 'badass' rather than just following the hero around.

Though I do believe that, on average, there are 'feminine' traits and 'masculine' traits. With men have a larger propensity for, among other things,
in-hour-face aggression.

So a movie were women suddenly have all these 'masculine' traits is perhaps not fitting. Though we have to remember that movies portray small groups of people, so these people can be outside of the 'average' of their gender/sex. Same logic applies to any other trait that is not equally distributed among genders.

But to call a movie like that feminist is akin to calling female wrestling feminist just because it's a male dominated type of activity. -- It's nonsense. It's male dominated because more men are interested in it. That also applies to many fields for both genders.

Truth is, people can do whatever they want. And classifying a woman doing something she wants to do as 'feminist' is, to me, sexist. As it holds the assumption that what she's doing is somehow a 'male thing' or rather a thing 'males have been keeping women away from'.

And to me, that's sexist, small-minded, bullshit. Like most 'vocal feminism' is. I guess it's time to just call today's most vocal feminists what they are -- sexists and, ironically, misogynists. For wanting to classify what a woman will or will not do as 'proper feminist behavior' or anti-feminist//pro-patriarchy (don't even get me started on that)
 

Tellenbach

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All About Eve with Bette Davis and Anne Baxter. Two strong female characters, but one of them is portrayed as the villain because she'll do anything to get ahead. I'm not sure how today's female audience would interpret the Eve Harrington character; I don't think they'd mind her underhanded tactics.

"Fasten your seatbelts. It's going to be a bumpy night." Margo Channing
 

Arctic Hysteria

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I'm glad I can enjoy movies without being bothered by most of these issues. :cheers:
I guess if was easily bothered, I wouldn't be able to enjoy most foreign films.
 

Doctor Cringelord

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"Conservative" in the sense that they're cautious, they play things safe. Safe = simply stories starring pretty people.

That's (loosely) what I meant when I said conservative. I didn't mean in the political sense.
 

Doctor Cringelord

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It's about money. Only in money-obsessed Hollywood could avengers 2 be considered financially a failure. Anyway, that means there's not as much risk taken to stretch roles and expectations.

This is a shame, because it used to be that if a film at least earned more than its budget back, it might be considered a moderate success.
 

Totenkindly

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I think the action hero trope is less about sexism (i.e., having to recast a woman as competently aggressive) than simply that it's a particular genre of movie where story is told and conflict revealed and resolved through physical action. It attracts a particular kind of audience/mindset, and expanding it to include women was not necessarily trying to directly masculinize them (although it definitely can function that way), it was at least in part trying to expand the boundaries of who could be effective in that role regardless of gender.

I personally like to have drama mixed with my action -- some form of character depth and understandable even in a streamlined movie -- so when you look at a movie like Salt, for example, although Jolie is quite competent in the action sequences, I find the movie more compelling when it is exploring her relationship with her husband and how finding him is one of her primary motivations for much of the movie. In the scenes with just them, you acquire an understanding of her not just as a cold effective professional but her actual vulnerability and how much she had bonded with him after trying to shut herself away from emotional interactions for so long.

I can't believe no one has mentioned Marge Gunderson from Fargo. In a movie full of incompetent men, she's the one person who calmly takes charge and gets things done. All while being hugely pregnant.

I liked how "normal" she was -- just a woman doing her job, steady and consistent, while others floundered or got distracted. Totally unflappable.

A lot of female heroism seems subtle like that.

Still running through movies in my head, so maybe I will come up with better examples later. But sometimes female heroism is bearing up under a disadvantaging system. For example, in The Hours, one of the more compelling plotlines involves the '50's mother (Laura?) who -- crushed by the system around here -- does the unthinkable and walks out on her family, which includes her young son. This results in a lot of hate being directed her way decades later, and it sounds terrible, but once you see the scenario she lived in and how it was crushing the life from her, and how lesser means of escape failed, then you're left with just silent contemplation over an act that was severe and damaging and yet possibly the least destructive out she had at the time. In that case, it was her resisting the establishment that had been crushing the life from her rather than succumbing, despite the fallout from that. Meanwhile those in the establishment didn't change or grow; who the establishment could not control, it instead judged and condemned.

Or in Moulin Rouge, where you see Satine trying to balance everything -- building a life for herself professionally, having to play the "game" as a courtesan in order to get ahead, until she finds herself attracted to a young man who falls madly in love with her, threatening to upend the careful balance of her life. She wants him but will likely lose her career if she accepts him, and meanwhile the fate of the Moulin rouge and all her friends rest on her selling her life to a man who just views her as an object. And, yes, she's also dying but doesn't want to tell anyone and pretends she's fine, all as part of keeping the plates spinning. It's the typical battle of one's desires balanced against the needs of the community/family all over again, and trying to honor everything you can to the best of your ability, rather than just demanding straight self-interest. The system is stacked against you, and somehow you stay afloat while trying to honor the things you care about.

Again, there are better examples out there I am sure (which I'll recall when I go through my movie shelf), but Marge is such a great one. She's completely normal and rather heroic in her normalcy.

EDIT: Oh here's some more:

- Ree Dolly in "Winter's Bone"
- Mary MacGregor in "Rob Roy"
- Elle Arroway in "Contact"
 
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