[Traditional Enneagram] 9's and Assumptions People Make

[Ene]

More than once I've had people treat me as if they thought I was incapable of defending myself because I'm "so sweet" and "soft spoken," and have such a "gentle nature" as if that makes me the equivalent of a 6 week old kitten that needs to be protected. That irks me. In fact, it's the one thing that infuriates me more than anything else a person can say to me. Yes, I am polite. Yes, I am nice. Yes, I am kind and gentle. I believe in power under control. BUT I am also a survivor and probably one of the toughest people I know. Being polite, kind and sweet does not equal being a push over. I once had to tell a principal that I lived by the philosophy of speak softly and carry a big stick. I told her that I meant whatever I said and said what I meant and that I believe actions speak louder than words, so I see no need to go around all worked up and yelling all of the time. People don't always know how to handle "quiet" authority, especially extroverted subordinates or co-workers who are under the management of an introvert.

Just this week, my secretary told me that if I didn't feel comfortable asking someone to pay up on their tuition that she would do it for me since I was so "sweet" and she was worried that I might just let people "walk all over me." I looked her straight in the eye and said in a tone that was as icy as a freezer, "If I couldn't handle telling people what needed to be done, I couldn't be a teacher and furthermore, Mother Teresa was "sweet," too but she didn't have a problem shaking her finger in a president's face when the situation called for it." I told her that just because I don't go around ranting, raving and hollering at people did not mean I wasn't capable of doing what needed to be done and furthermore, I WOULD handle it in my own way. She ended up apologizing to me and saying, "I didn't mean to offend you. You just seem so "sweet." Ick. Sweet doesn't equal idiot. I don't know why people always call me sweet. They mean it as a compliment, but it's NOT a compliment; it's patronizing.

So, is it a 9 thing? or is it just an introverted boss kind of thing?

 

[wolfy]

I suppose it is a combination of those things.

 

[Frosty]

Yeah I can get with this. It is almost as if some take passivity to be some sort of character weakness, it is something people can obviously spot, and for them it feels almost as if they are guiding you in such a way- supporting you, in something that they feel more comfortable. The 9 is a gut type, which means that I think that the 'weaknesses' associated with this type might appear the most obviously. 1 and 8 are gut types as well, but both of them encompass operandi of personal strength and conviction. Helping an 8 would be intimidating, as what the 8 might need help in is something that might subject the person helping into inferior grounds. Same in a more controlled, but possibly more personal way with 1's. There was some video on here before with a homeless man who tried to give back his money to people on the streets, their reactions swayed from puzzled to pretty negative. People like to help those they feel cannot help themselves in some respect, as long as the person helping remains the dominant, 9's natural visible submissiveness feeds right into that.

 

[Doctor Cringelord]

More than once I've had people treat me as if they thought I was incapable of defending myself because I'm "so sweet" and "soft spoken," and have such a "gentle nature" as if that makes me the equivalent of a 6 week old kitten that needs to be protected. That irks me. In fact, it's the one thing that infuriates me more than anything else a person can say to me. Yes, I am polite. Yes, I am nice. Yes, I am kind and gentle. I believe in power under control. BUT I am also a survivor and probably one of the toughest people I know. Being polite, kind and sweet does not equal being a push over. I once had to tell a principal that I lived by the philosophy of speak softly and carry a big stick. I told her that I meant whatever I said and said what I meant and that I believe actions speak louder than words, so I see no need to go around all worked up and yelling all of the time. People don't always know how to handle "quiet" authority, especially extroverted subordinates or co-workers who are under the management of an introvert.

Just this week, my secretary told me that if I didn't feel comfortable asking someone to pay up on their tuition that she would do it for me since I was so "sweet" and she was worried that I might just let people "walk all over me." I looked her straight in the eye and said in a tone that was as icy as a freezer, "If I couldn't handle telling people what needed to be done, I couldn't be a teacher and furthermore, Mother Teresa was "sweet," too but she didn't have a problem shaking her finger in a president's face when the situation called for it." I told her that just because I don't go around ranting, raving and hollering at people did not mean I wasn't capable of doing what needed to be done and furthermore, I WOULD handle it in my own way. She ended up apologizing to me and saying, "I didn't mean to offend you. You just seem so "sweet." Ick. Sweet doesn't equal idiot. I don't know why people always call me sweet. They mean it as a compliment, but it's NOT a compliment; it's patronizing.

So, is it a 9 thing? or is it just an introverted boss kind of thing?

I understand your frustration. I kind of dislike the word sweet. What the hell is that even supposed to mean?

I don't see why some people cannot be both sweet and forceful, alternating between the two, depending on the situation. I don't know why people assume that the two must be exclusive modes. I'm not really a boss, but being in purchasing means a lot of people (our salespeople/planners, production managers, vendors) try to walk all over me. I think this in part because I'm perceived as a nice person. However, I won't hesitate to stand up to people and assert myself when needed. I suppose it throws some people off because they don't expect it, but they learn pretty fast.

My parents would keep bad news from me as a kid because they didn't think I could handle it. The funny thing is that I usually handled it better than anyone else in my family, yet somehow people saw me as a weak, sensitive child. It must be because I was the youngest child.

 

[ceecee]

Well, I have found that these assumptions are not without a kernel of truth. This doesn't mean 9's won't stand up for themselves - they will if they are pushed far enough or when they feel they've had enough. It just appears to be a very long time to observers. I don't keep things from my 9 and he isn't a pushover but I have a natural urge to want to protect him and here's why - I think he can handle most things but I KNOW I can. I don't think this is ever done with malicious intent. If people didn't care about you, they wouldn't intervene. So, while this may offend the 9's, cracking the whip a little earlier in situations (since you'll eventually do it, as you say) might keep people from assuming you're helpless and weak.

 

[Ene]

[MENTION=24643]Frosty6226[/MENTION]

Yeah I can get with this. It is almost as if some take passivity to be some sort of character weakness

,

Yeah, but I don't even feel like I'm all that passive; I'm just not easily worked up and I don't want to waste energy on things that don't really matter in the long run, but as you say, some people see that as some sort of a 'weakness.' Yet, to me, in my eyes, it's a strength.

it is something people can obviously spot, and for them it feels almost as if they are guiding you in such a way- supporting you, in something that they feel more comfortable

.

I know they mean well.

People like to help those they feel cannot help themselves in some respect, as long as the person helping remains the dominant, 9's natural visible submissiveness feeds right into that.

That's just it though, I'm NOT submissive. They only perceive me that way.

[MENTION=19700]Starcrash[/MENTION]

I understand your frustration. I kind of dislike the word sweet. What the hell is that even supposed to mean?

Exactly. What DOES it mean? Why do people say, "you're so sweet."

I don't see why some people cannot be both sweet and forceful, alternating between the two, depending on the situation.

I totally agree.

I don't know why people assume that the two must be exclusive modes. I'm not really a boss, but being in purchasing means a lot of people (our salespeople/planners, production managers, vendors) try to walk all over me. I think this in part because I'm perceived as a nice person. However, I won't hesitate to stand up to people and assert myself when needed. I suppose it throws some people off because they don't expect it, but they learn pretty fast.

Sometimes, people act like it's a crime to behave calmly and rationally. I often feel like a Vulcan at a Klingon convention.

My parents would keep bad news from me as a kid because they didn't think I could handle it. The funny thing is that I usually handled it better than anyone else in my family, yet somehow people saw me as a weak, sensitive child. It must be because I was the youngest child.

Mine never kept bad news from me. I was a rock in my family and my siblings are the one set of people that KNOW what I'm made of. They come to me in a crisis because I am calm. The very thing that outsiders see as a weakness, they see as my greatest strength. It's valued in my family, just not in the work world.

[MENTION=4050]ceecee[/MENTION]W

ell, I have found that these assumptions are not without a kernel of truth.

Perhaps so, but it is bothersome at times.

This doesn't mean 9's won't stand up for themselves - they will if they are pushed far enough or when they feel they've had enough. It just appears to be a very long time to observers.

But why should that matter? Why can't we just take our time and do things our own way? Perhaps it is as you say,

If people didn't care about you, they wouldn't intervene.

I don't keep things from my 9 and he isn't a pushover but I have a natural urge to want to protect him and here's why - I think he can handle most things but I KNOW I can.

But is that unfair to him? I mean is it assuming that he isn't as stable as you are, that he is somehow weaker and inferior or maybe that's not how others see it. It's only how the 9 sees it. Maybe it's the 8 wing in me that causes me to get all fired up when I feel like people are patronizing me or handling me like a child. I'm simply soft-spoken and easy-going. I'm not breakable, at least no more than the next person.

I don't think this is ever done with malicious intent.

No, I don't think it is either and in a way..

So, while this may offend the 9's, cracking the whip a little earlier in situations (since you'll eventually do it, as you say) might keep people from assuming you're helpless and weak.

I understand that, but sometimes, I don't want to "crack the whip" because I have a more effective strategy in mind with longer-lasting results and when someone else steps in and starts to crack the whip, they mess things up and then I have to abort my plan or fix all the things they broke while they were swinging that thing around. haha...Seriously, thank you for letting me see this through the eyes of a non-9. That's what I wondered.

 

[Doctor Cringelord]

I often feel like a Vulcan at a Klingon convention.

I tried to find an appropriate image. Instead, I found the following. Inappropriate, but I couldn't resist sharing:

Which is actually true about vulcans, if you consider the whole pon farr thing where they revert to their animal instincts.

 

[ceecee]

[MENTION=24643]


I understand that, but sometimes, I don't want to "crack the whip" because I have a more effective strategy in mind with longer-lasting results and when someone else steps in and starts to crack the whip, they mess things up and then I have to abort my plan or fix all the things they broke while they were swinging that thing around. haha...Seriously, thank you for letting me see this through the eyes of a non-9. That's what I wondered.

I get this. I'm an 8w9 and my husband is a 9w8. For real. What a mess that could be, right? Anyway, having a better strategy and a plan is totally ok with me. I love planning and contingency planning. It's my jam. However, occasionally relating that you have a plan and what it is, can be SO helpful in stopping these issues. We just want to share. Then we can step back and let you do your thing.

 

[Ene]

I get this. I'm an 8w9 and my husband is a 9w8. For real. What a mess that could be, right? Anyway, having a better strategy and a plan is totally ok with me. I love planning and contingency planning. It's my jam. However, occasionally relating that you have a plan and what it is, can be SO helpful in stopping these issues. We just want to share. Then we can step back and let you do your thing.

Thanks! I will work harder at remembering to share what's going on inside my head, especially with those close to me.

[MENTION=19700]Starcrash[/MENTION] I LOVE it!!!! It's perfect.

 

[mcgooglian]

When I was younger, my friends used to always stand up for me assuming that I wouldn't. Even my best friend that initially I come across as the nice, quiet guy at first until I start talking. People tend to be surprised that I have a filthy mouth and that I say what I want. For example, my ESFJ manager was talking about the new girl and jokingly said, "Brittany probably thinks I'm a bitch because I've been so stressed lately." I was walking by as she said that, so I just said (straight-faced), "At least she'd be telling the truth."

 

[indra]

I've found my 9-ness to opposite effect - people presume I have hidden strength or that I'm insane.

 

[great_bay]

It appears you're a 9w8. You can turn into the challenger in situations. You're not all that passive as you appear to be.

 

[Ene]

It appears you're a 9w8. You can turn into the challenger in situations. You're not all that passive as you appear to be.

Yes, I'm a 9w8 and I'm very small as well and have a soft voice, so I appear to be much more passive than I really am. I think you're absolutely correct about the wing 8. On the inside, I think I'm a lioness, just quietly stalking and planning and waiting for the right time to do things. It's not that I'm afraid. It's just that I want every move to count. I don't like wasted effort or needless drama. I don't "feel" mousey so when I discover that someone perceives me as such, it bothers me. I hate being seen that way. I did have a guy [and ESTJ] tell me I was "gritty" today. I like that much, much better than "sweet."

 

[PeaceBaby]

More than once I've had people treat me as if they thought I was incapable of defending myself because I'm "so sweet" and "soft spoken," and have such a "gentle nature" as if that makes me the equivalent of a 6 week old kitten that needs to be protected. That irks me. In fact, it's the one thing that infuriates me more than anything else a person can say to me. Yes, I am polite. Yes, I am nice. Yes, I am kind and gentle. I believe in power under control. BUT I am also a survivor and probably one of the toughest people I know. Being polite, kind and sweet does not equal being a push over. I once had to tell a principal that I lived by the philosophy of speak softly and carry a big stick. I told her that I meant whatever I said and said what I meant and that I believe actions speak louder than words, so I see no need to go around all worked up and yelling all of the time. People don't always know how to handle "quiet" authority, especially extroverted subordinates or co-workers who are under the management of an introvert.

Just this week, my secretary told me that if I didn't feel comfortable asking someone to pay up on their tuition that she would do it for me since I was so "sweet" and she was worried that I might just let people "walk all over me." I looked her straight in the eye and said in a tone that was as icy as a freezer, "If I couldn't handle telling people what needed to be done, I couldn't be a teacher and furthermore, Mother Teresa was "sweet," too but she didn't have a problem shaking her finger in a president's face when the situation called for it." I told her that just because I don't go around ranting, raving and hollering at people did not mean I wasn't capable of doing what needed to be done and furthermore, I WOULD handle it in my own way. She ended up apologizing to me and saying, "I didn't mean to offend you. You just seem so "sweet." Ick. Sweet doesn't equal idiot. I don't know why people always call me sweet. They mean it as a compliment, but it's NOT a compliment; it's patronizing.

So, is it a 9 thing? or is it just an introverted boss kind of thing?

More than any other type, I see INFJs as people who create stories about themselves then craft their existence into ways of living that story out loud. Like everything, this has pros and cons. So, it strikes me first that paragraph 1 references your self-story. There's this need you have to be seen as capable and in control. So, in paragraph 2, it annoys you when someone doesn't see you as you wish to see yourself. Why does it annoy you? Because it's a story you tell yourself, and your emotions know this. The story is not the real you.

How about this instead? If you saw your secretary's action as trying to be complimentary, respectful and helpful instead of taking affront that someone doesn't see you as you see yourself, what reaction would you have then? Your "icy as a freezer" retort probably had a hurtful effect rather than an educational one and tells far more about you than her, and bespeaks a certain insecurity touched on directly.

To me, this is partly a 9 thing, but an INFJ thing, and an insecurity issue. It's a lot of things.

When people tell me I'm sweet, I just say thanks. There's nothing wrong with being seen as sweet, you know.

 

[mcgooglian]

On the inside, I think I'm a lioness, just quietly stalking and planning and waiting for the right time to do things."

This actually reminds me of what my main Muay Thai training partner said about me (and my sparring style): "You start off seeming quiet and tentative, but once someone is in a bad position, then you charge forward."

 

[Ene]

This actually reminds me of what my main Muay Thai training partner said about me (and my sparring style): "You start off seeming quiet and tentative, but once someone is in a bad position, then you charge forward."

I think it is a universal martial arts strategy. I think that it's cool that you do Muay Thai.

 

[Ene]

[MENTION=5999]PeaceBaby[/MENTION]


Thank you for sharing your insights and well-thought out reply.

If you saw your secretary's action as trying to be complimentary, respectful and helpful instead of talking affront that someone doesn't see you as you see yourself, what reaction would you have then? Your "icy as a freezer" retort probably had a hurtful effect rather than an educational one and tells far more about you than her, and bespeaks a certain insecurity touched on directly.

I would have done exactly what I ended up doing; spending time with her and getting to know her, so that we would have a better understanding of each other. After I made the original post on here, I thought about it and I knew that she meant well; so, I followed [MENTION=4050]ceecee[/MENTION]'s advice. I went to her and unfolded for her, my very detailed plan. She said that she realized she was out of line and that she didn't really know me that well. She didn't know that I was a planner, a strategist, because I don't come across that way at first glance. I come across as very much a people person. She saw another side that she didn't know was there. I told her that I valued her great ideas and that we should set aside a time and talk about them, so that's what we did. We spent the day together Saturday.

So, I think, in the long run, it did have a bit of an educational effect. She hasn't worked for me very long, maybe a month, two afternoons a week. She had made her judgment on my appearance and the softness of my voice, not on any track record or background knowledge, when I pointed this out, she totally agreed and respected that viewpoint tremendously. It turns out that she is most likely a Te dominant, and also a J [very much a J, stero-typically so], so when I started talking about objective measures, she was all ears. We ended up talking for hours, making plans, perfecting schedules and we devised a new invoice system. We talked a little about Typology. She is most likely an ENTJ, possibly an INTJ, but she is very confident and extroverted in her thinking. She admitted to me that sometimes I will have to reign her in because she gets carried away. She told me that in her prior job she was hired by companies to go in and do drug testing on people and was a behavioral analyst, which she said basically meant that she went in and tested for drugs and sniff out company thieves, etc. They referred to her as the "bitch." So, she told me that I would definitely have to tell her when she was stepping over the line and she appreciated me doing it the other day.

We had some laughs because we both had plans but she didn't know mine and I didn't fully understand hers. I picked out parts of hers that I thought were great and we threw out parts of mine that weren't and ended up merging the best of both into something we both thought was workable.

But you are right about the stories. I am the author of my own life story and my version of the story is the only one I can live. I can't let other people write my story or dictate their "truth" about me; and while I value peace and harmony tremendously, I can never let another person's idea of me supersede the reality of me, or at least what I perceive to be the reality of me. I suppose that maybe it is an INFJ thing and maybe it is a weakness, but as you say, it can also be a strength. So, I will probably, at times, when I feel it is warranted, continue to set others straight about who I am or who I believe myself to be, especially those who will be working closely with me on something that really matters to me, like my school.

When people tell me I'm sweet, I just say thanks. There's nothing wrong with being seen as sweet, you know

Nothing wrong with being a story-teller either

Still, I do think it's a problem for 9s, or just people in general. Maybe we all go around making assumptions about others all of the time, based on insufficient evidences.

 

[grey_beard]

Yes, I'm a 9w8 and I'm very small as well and have a soft voice, so I appear to be much more passive than I really am. I think you're absolutely correct about the wing 8. On the inside, I think I'm a lioness, just quietly stalking and planning and waiting for the right time to do things. It's not that I'm afraid. It's just that I want every move to count. I don't like wasted effort or needless drama. I don't "feel" mousey so when I discover that someone perceives me as such, it bothers me. I hate being seen that way. I did have a guy [and ESTJ] tell me I was "gritty" today. I like that much, much better than "sweet."

That 9w8 (gentleness concealing strength) seems to me, to be exhibited *perfectly* by your .tagline.

Oh, as to why people do it? Maybe it's that surfboard your avatar is always carrying around...surfers are pretty chill.

 

[á´…eparted]

I'm not so sure. I know plenty of 9's that come across as "sweet", placid, and unassuming, but I and others can tell if there is an underlying strength or firmness that is not to be pushed with. Granted, I'd say 1/2 of the 9's aren't like this, and honestly are pushovers for most things.

Though my views on this are not well put together, I don't relate to 9's even a little. The only reason I can "get" them enough to get along is because my mother is 9w8.

 

[Ene]

That 9w8 (gentleness concealing strength) seems to me, to be exhibited *perfectly* by your .tagline.

Oh, as to why people do it? Maybe it's that surfboard your avatar is always carrying around...surfers are pretty chill.

Haha...it HAS to be the surfboard!

[MENTION=20829]Hard[/MENTION]

I'm not so sure. I know plenty of 9's that come across as "sweet", placid, and unassuming, but I and others can tell if there is an underlying strength or firmness that is not to be pushed with. Granted, I'd say 1/2 of the 9's aren't like this, and honestly are pushovers for most things.

Perhaps, many people lack your ability to discern the difference.

Though my views on this are not well put together, I don't relate to 9's even a little.

I don't know. We're not really all that alien, even if some of us do look like it.