[Traditional Enneagram] holy shiz i really am a 9 :/

[Lady_X]

you're not reading.my words right then riva

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

I actually relate to this. Maybe you have an 8 wing? I don't consider myself a doormat. But it's like I have a really hard time not considering others or understanding the consequences. It's just kinda natural for me. I have no problems with consoling people and it makes me happy to know that others benefit from my presence.

A healthy 9 will often go more toward 3, and unlock some sudden energy I think. I have kinda done this, and it's like when I'm not healthy I feel really sluggish. But it's like when I am healthy I am full of energy and very serene. I rarely get elated. The whole "people become part of you" thing sounds really 9 sx. I do that too. It's like I pick up on things that I like and make them apart of myself. You have never seemed very 7 nor soc last to me. Now we know why!

Also I think that type 9 sp last may be less obvious, since 9 seems kinda sp in and of itself. Might have to do some reading to understand that, but I think it would manifest about being chill about your belongings and maybe not stressing money or resources that much.

good, this.

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

yes...i stress less about money or any sort of major life component than anyone else i know. and reading that 9's sort of have this magical type thinking like it will all just work out...that just resonates...i do just do what i can and not stress much about the things that i can't fix yet.

not sure about instincts yet but are you saying you think i'm sx/so?

Yes, that is somewhat true, and in my experience, I get annoyed or stressed out when people want to discuss financial matters. It doesn't matter, my wife could be speaking positively about our financial status. Like, we might have all of our bills met for the month and have some money left over, but it will still stress me out to think or talk about it.

 

[five sounds]

Yes, that is somewhat true, and in my experience, I get annoyed or stressed out when people want to discuss financial matters. It doesn't matter, my wife could be speaking positively about our financial status. Like, we might have all of our bills met for the month and have some money left over, but it will still stress me out to think or talk about it.

i relate strongly to that.

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

Pay attention to the annoyance, does it result in resentment and resistance? If so ponder if you feel dismissed as those are things that for a 9 come from anger. I've never met a 9 who did not at some point claim to not feel angry, I've also not met a 9 who does not experience anger.

I would suspect Sx/So as well, fwiw. Whatever the case I would think Sp last.

I think that 9s, despite a serene outward appearance, might have more potential than any other type for deep, fiery anger which others may not always see, but it will burn through if not kept in check or dealt with. Under that calm surface can be a great deal of conflict. 9s want to have peace within themselves and amongst other people, but at the same time they can burn with anger or resentment that might surface in a way which will surprise others, even the people who think they know the 9 well. The first time my wife saw my angry side, I smashed a mirror with my bare fist. This might be more true in the case of 9s with an 8 wing? I don't know so much about 9w1.

edit: when expressed, my anger isn't always physical. It can often be expressed in words that can be very damaging and hurtful. When I lose control and unleash a verbal onslaught, it's like I can see and hear myself doing it but can't stop it. When it's done, I often feel regret at having fucked up my zen and hurt someone's feelings. Also, being ISTP, I have a very Ti way of criticizing others when I am frustrated or angry. It doesn't happen often, but when it does, it can be very brutal and honest.

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

that type 7 description i read was just all about being a materialistic sensation experience junky person when in moderate to low health levels.

My sister is ENFP and probably a 7 (8 wing, maybe). Obviously my interaction with you has been limited, but so far you are nothing like her. The description of materialistic junky or whatever rather well sums her up in her unhealthiest state, sadly. Not to bash 7s or anything.

 

[five sounds]

My sister is ENFP and probably a 7 (8 wing, maybe). Obviously my interaction with you has been limited, but so far you are nothing like her. The description of materialistic junky or whatever rather well sums her up in her unhealthiest state, sadly. Not to bash 7s or anything.

are you sure that's not an instinctual variant thing? even at my worst, and maybe especially at my worst, i really don't think i'm materialistic at all. at my worst, i'm completely overwhelmed with a million ideas swirling at once, maybe prone to paranoia, and otherwise completely paralyzed (unless it's some big change now). i'm very idea > thing focused, at every stage of health.

i do like little odd nick-nacks (either artful, cultural, or otherwise quirky), but they really aren't important to me, and in a moment of panic i'd surely sell them or abandon them over clinging to them. and i spend next to no money or time on obtaining them. when i splurge it's on nice meals or traveling/activities.

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

are you sure that's not an instinctual variant thing? even at my worst, and maybe especially at my worst, i really don't think i'm materialistic at all. at my worst, i'm completely overwhelmed with a million ideas swirling at once, maybe prone to paranoia, and otherwise completely paralyzed (unless it's some big change now). i'm very idea > thing focused, at every stage of health.

i do like little odd nick-nacks (either artful, cultural, or otherwise quirky), but they really aren't important to me, and in a moment of panic i'd surely sell them or abandon them over clinging to them. and i spend next to no money or time on obtaining them. when i splurge it's on nice meals or traveling/activities.

good point. she is also a collector of "weird shit"

she lives at thrift stores lol.

she spends A LOT on eating out at nice restaurants, probably more than she should.

 

[Kasper]

however...i don't feeeel angry...much haha

If you're lucky you're not, much, well lucky may not be the right word. On one hand it is a powerful force that can push a 9 to being self-propelled, knowing what we don't want helps show what we do and force us to set boundaries, on the other hand if anger is there, once you learn what the signs are it can feel overpowering because you're aware of the anger.

^^I relate to all of the above here as well. I could easily attribute most of it to sx-merging as opposed to 9-merging but I'm keeping an open mind.

Fair point that. 9 Sx's can be quite subdued for Sx's, they can be like merging on crack, like they melt into other people.

I think that 9s, despite a serene outward appearance, might have more potential than any other type for deep, fiery anger which others may not always see, but it will burn through if not kept in check or dealt with. Under that calm surface can be a great deal of conflict. 9s want to have peace within themselves and amongst other people, but at the same time they can burn with anger or resentment that might surface in a way which will surprise others, even the people who think they know the 9 well. The first time my wife saw my angry side, I smashed a mirror with my bare fist. This might be more true in the case of 9s with an 8 wing? I don't know so much about 9w1.

edit: when expressed, my anger isn't always physical. It can often be expressed in words that can be very damaging and hurtful. When I lose control and unleash a verbal onslaught, it's like I can see and hear myself doing it but can't stop it. When it's done, I often feel regret at having fucked up my zen and hurt someone's feelings. Also, being ISTP, I have a very Ti way of criticizing others when I am frustrated or angry. It doesn't happen often, but when it does, it can be very brutal and honest.

I consider that the w8 influence, the drama is if the 9 is resisting dealing with problems the avoidance and pushing down can cause things to come to a head when things are too far gone and there is no chance of an even reaction. For core 8 anger isn't the last resort, less has happened when you see their anger, and force is an element in play, for 9w8s when anger is seen a hell of a lot must have happened for it to spill out in a visual way, and it is not controlled. It would be short lived through typically, as the quick after thought is "don't have a right to anger", "their position is valid in it's own way as I understand their pov", "this may bother other people which will lead to rejection/disconnection" and the doubt over it being an appropriate reaction can quickly become more suppression if not careful.

9w8 is well visualised as a caricature when thinking of Bruce Banner/Hulk. Unassuming, withdraw and chill, but able to rage hot.

That said, no one would have seen my rage since I was a teen, not because it isn't there, just because I fear letting it out, the consequences of it, and I have enough control to notice it and temper it. Plus recognising signs of rising anger early means I can be proactive about things.

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

If you're lucky you're not, much, well lucky may not be the right word. On one hand it is a powerful force that can push a 9 to being self-propelled, knowing what we don't want helps show what we do and force us to set boundaries, on the other hand if anger is there, once you learn what the signs are it can feel overpowering because you're aware of the anger.




Fair point that. 9 Sx's can be quite subdued for Sx's, they can be like merging on crack, like they melt into other people.




I consider that the w8 influence, the drama is if the 9 is resisting dealing with problems the avoidance and pushing down can cause things to come to a head when things are too far gone and there is no chance of an even reaction. For core 8 anger isn't the last resort, less has happened when you see their anger, and force is an element in play, for 9w8s when anger is seen a hell of a lot must have happened for it to spill out in a visual way, and it is not controlled. It would be short lived through typically, as the quick after thought is "don't have a right to anger", "their position is valid as well even", "this may bother other people which will lead to rejection/disconnection" and the doubt over it being an appropriate reaction can quickly become more suppression if not careful.

9w8 is well visualised as a caricature when thinking of Bruce Banner/Hulk. Unassuming, withdraw and chill, but able to rage hot.

That said, no one would have seen my rage since I was a teen, not because it isn't there, just because I fear letting it out, the consequences of it, and I have enough control to notice it and temper it. Plus recognising signs of rising anger early means I can be proactive about things.

Well said.

That's where the 9w8 inner conflict comes from--a desire to remain calm and placid on the surface and not alienate others. The problem is that 9w8s can and will hold resentments regarding people they disagree with or people who rub them the wrong way, but they are reluctant to "make waves" by voicing their resentment or distaste for the person's actions

 

[uumlau]

If you're lucky you're not, much, well lucky may not be the right word. On one hand it is a powerful force that can push a 9 to being self-propelled, knowing what we don't want helps show what we do and force us to set boundaries, on the other hand if anger is there, once you learn what the signs are it can feel overpowering because you're aware of the anger.

In my case, it really feels like it's "not there" most of the time. I don't feel like I'm holding anything back, like I need to clench some mental muscle or bite my tongue. That's exactly why it can catch me by surprise. I recall being more susceptible to giving into rage when I was a kid. (I was a kid after all!) I suspect that the lesson I learned is that the anger doesn't get you anywhere, that in fact it gets you ignored or punished. Therefore the only way to "win" is to "not be angry" and approach things dispassionately.

I consider that the w8 influence, the drama is if the 9 is resisting dealing with problems the avoidance and pushing down can cause things to come to a head when things are too far gone and there is no chance of an even reaction. For core 8 anger isn't the last resort, less has happened when you see their anger, and force is an element in play, for 9w8s when anger is seen a hell of a lot must have happened for it to spill out in a visual way, and it is not controlled. It would be short lived through typically, as the quick after thought is "don't have a right to anger", "their position is valid in it's own way as I understand their pov", "this may bother other people which will lead to rejection/disconnection" and the doubt over it being an appropriate reaction can quickly become more suppression if not careful.

In my case, it feels more like my Ni is just predicting all the possible outcomes of each interaction. I play all the possibilities out in my head. The "angry" reaction is thus eliminated as being "stupid." For me, it isn't, "I don't have a right to anger," it's "I don't have a right to express anger." Making points in an angry way is a surefire way to make sure that no one takes you seriously.

9w8 is well visualised as a caricature when thinking of Bruce Banner/Hulk. Unassuming, withdraw and chill, but able to rage hot.

That said, no one would have seen my rage since I was a teen, not because it isn't there, just because I fear letting it out, the consequences of it, and I have enough control to notice it and temper it. Plus recognising signs of rising anger early means I can be proactive about things.

So do you feel like you're holding a lid tightly over your anger? Or is it so deep down under the crust of your psyche that it is entirely quiescent until it erupts like a volcano?

Well said.

That's where the 9w8 inner conflict comes from--a desire to remain calm and placid on the surface and not alienate others. The problem is that 9w8s can and will hold resentments regarding people they disagree with or people who rub them the wrong way, but they are reluctant to "make waves" by voicing their resentment or distaste for the person's actions

Question for both Kasper and Fuzzy: how does 9w8 compare vs 9w1, in your opinions? I'm sure of my 9 core type, but I also test strongly on the 8 and the 1 types. I've heard it explained as 9w1 is the "cerebral type" and the 9w8 is the "physical" type, but neither of those truly resonate with me as explanations. Why? Because people would type me as a cerebral 5w6 just because the 5w6 personality is closest to the typical INTJ personality. I'm looking for a more "elemental" comparison.

 

[Starry]

oh also...type 3 shit...just...professionally with work stuffs i'm like hell yeah i'm going to rock this shit! i don't know man...i get very motivated...haha

If what you describe is 3 integration then I relate to it as well. I get extraordinarily motivated at times with projects and purposes. My problem is I'm "all beginnings and no endings." <-And it's not boredom necessarily like they usually try to pin on the ENFP (or the 7 I guess.) I can create anything out of nothing...and yet my abilities seem to be gravely lacking when it comes to project maintenance and conclusion. It's like I'm blind to it all it seems. But when I can rock a project from beginning to end I feel a profound sense of happiness and fulfillment.

yes...i stress less about money or any sort of major life component than anyone else i know. and reading that 9's sort of have this magical type thinking like it will all just work out...that just resonates...i do just do what i can and not stress much about the things that i can't fix yet.

^^Just want to point out that this is an issue for 7 as well if not moreso. Some people may refer to it as "delusional optimism"... but I prefer to term "optimism."

you're not reading.my words right then riva

Seriously [MENTION=22067]riva[/MENTION] this thread is so haha.

Yes, that is somewhat true, and in my experience, I get annoyed or stressed out when people want to discuss financial matters. It doesn't matter, my wife could be speaking positively about our financial status. Like, we might have all of our bills met for the month and have some money left over, but it will still stress me out to think or talk about it.

^^I relate very much. I suspect many people across the entire enneagram spectrum feel the same way though... and so I was wondering what the specific "pain/fear/discomfort" is for the 9 as it pertains to discussing finances do you know?

are you sure that's not an instinctual variant thing? even at my worst, and maybe especially at my worst, i really don't think i'm materialistic at all. at my worst, i'm completely overwhelmed with a million ideas swirling at once, maybe prone to paranoia, and otherwise completely paralyzed (unless it's some big change now). i'm very idea > thing focused, at every stage of health.

i do like little odd nick-nacks (either artful, cultural, or otherwise quirky), but they really aren't important to me, and in a moment of panic i'd surely sell them or abandon them over clinging to them. and i spend next to no money or time on obtaining them. when i splurge it's on nice meals or traveling/activities.

6 is so bastard.

good point. she is also a collector of "weird shit"

Umm...it's called "Art."

Fair point that. 9 Sx's can be quite subdued for Sx's, they can be like merging on crack, like they melt into other people.

My first bf now bff is ISFP 9w8 sx and this is so true.

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

^^I relate very much. I suspect many people across the entire enneagram spectrum feel the same way though... and so I was wondering what the specific "pain/fear/discomfort" is for the 9 as it pertains to discussing finances do you know?

Good question.

I guess because money is often a cause of friction and disharmony in relationships, particularly marriages. Thus it is easier if I don't dwell on it too much. Maybe another 9 has a better answer. I don't know though, because we usually see eye to eye on how to save/spend/allocate our money but it still kinda stresses me out to think about.

Although my ISTP Se also wants me to earn as much as possible so I can afford to do fun things...

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

Umm...it's called "Art."

Yeah, I get that. I mean that what's art to certain people is just weird shit to other people. I'm weird because I think musical instruments and weird antique tools and weapons like bayonets make nice wall art.

 

[Starry]

Yeah, I get that. I mean that what's art to certain people is just weird shit to other people. I'm weird because I think musical instruments and weird antique tools and weapons like bayonets make nice wall art.

Oh my gosh I was totally kidding and you provide such a thoughtful response haha - so nice. I adore antique instruments, tools and weapons as well!

I'm thinking about what you wrote regarding financial conversations and it's so interesting to me. For me it's strictly the discomfort of being made to discuss something that I have no interest in...actually something I resent in a way (the almighty dollar.) The thought of there possibly being a conflict with a partner doesn't even come into my mind (I think my brain automatically positions them on "my side" or something. Us against "the man" and it doesn't even matter that you bought one too many Starbucks coffees last month because I'm focusing on my masterplan to take down the 1% haha) Thank you for taking the time to answer...it's helpful.

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

Oh my gosh I was totally kidding and you provide such a thoughtful response haha - so nice. I adore antique instruments, tools and weapons as well!

I'm thinking about what you wrote regarding financial conversations and it's so interesting to me. For me it's strictly the discomfort of being made to discuss something that I have no interest in...actually something I resent in a way (the almighty dollar.) The thought of there possibly being a conflict with a partner doesn't even come into my mind (I think my brain automatically positions them on "my side" or something. Us against "the man" and it doesn't even matter that you bought one too many Starbucks coffees last month because I'm focusing on my masterplan to take down the 1% haha) Thank you for taking the time to answer...it's helpful.

I figured you were joking but there's truth in it.

- - - Updated - - -

Oh my gosh I was totally kidding and you provide such a thoughtful response haha - so nice. I adore antique instruments, tools and weapons as well!

I'm thinking about what you wrote regarding financial conversations and it's so interesting to me. For me it's strictly the discomfort of being made to discuss something that I have no interest in...actually something I resent in a way (the almighty dollar.) The thought of there possibly being a conflict with a partner doesn't even come into my mind (I think my brain automatically positions them on "my side" or something. Us against "the man" and it doesn't even matter that you bought one too many Starbucks coffees last month because I'm focusing on my masterplan to take down the 1% haha) Thank you for taking the time to answer...it's helpful.

I figured you were joking but there's truth in it.

 

[Kasper]

For me, it isn't, "I don't have a right to anger," it's "I don't have a right to express anger."

That's a better way to put it.

So do you feel like you're holding a lid tightly over your anger? Or is it so deep down under the crust of your psyche that it is entirely quiescent until it erupts like a volcano?

Neither, more like the former though. I like my anger, it allows me to be assertive and put myself first. Things I'm not great at as a 9. So it's not holding a lid on it, because I embrace it, but I do stop it from being seen.

It's a constant force in my gut that serves as meter of if I'm okay. I am always chill and relaxed in my appearance however I also always have my muscles tensed and it takes conscious effort to notice and un-tense. It's like there's a base level of anger, let's say anger is on a 0-10 range, for me the base is 1, that is always there for me just sitting in my belly doing nothing, when I allow myself to be dismissed or treated poorly and don't react in the moment because I'm not sure if my pov is valid that's when it can go up to 10 where internally I am raging. The issue is in expressing that, I cannot allow that anger to spill out where others can see it so my choices are supress it and numb, which I hate doing as it's so unhealthy and will only come back, or I can sit down and allow myself to feel the rage (it can feel invigorating) and work out what the actual root cause was, it's often indirect, something that happened 2 hours/days ago was the cause but I didn't notice. I'm getting a lot better at noticing the signs quickly now so it can link signs of tension or irritation (or the desire to ignore something and numb) to the immediate cause, this leads to the actual solution: Dealing with being mistreated at the time it happens by having boundaries, saying no or that what someone else has said/done is not alright and expressing an unapologetic opinion.

Question for both Kasper and Fuzzy: how does 9w8 compare vs 9w1, in your opinions? I'm sure of my 9 core type, but I also test strongly on the 8 and the 1 types. I've heard it explained as 9w1 is the "cerebral type" and the 9w8 is the "physical" type, but neither of those truly resonate with me as explanations. Why? Because people would type me as a cerebral 5w6 just because the 5w6 personality is closest to the typical INTJ personality. I'm looking for a more "elemental" comparison.

The INTJ will mean you're more likely to appear more "cerebral" than me regardless of wing, however I don't like those terms either. I see why they can fit though.

Cerebral v Physical can be seen in how one calms. 9w1 is the type who when there is a problem can feel like a calming force they are just there being calm putting people at ease, while 9w8 is an active calming force, for me personally when something goes wrong in my space and someone is upset I'm involved, I'm talking to them trying to draw out of them the root of the problem and letting them know that it's okay to be upset, it's active calming.

The big thing for me is the focus; w8 is rage, w1 is critical (regardless of this is seen by anyone) looking deeper it means w8 is external, w1 is internal. An example of that, a 9w1 and a 9w8 are both late for work 5 days in a row and people are getting pissssed at them. They've clearly both made a decision internally that arriving on time is not something that matters to them, however they both apologise as others are upset, the w1 says it was my fault, I forgot to set my alarm, I didn't take into account traffic, *I* messed up. The w8 says my alarm didn't go off, the traffic was hectic, *something* else played a role, in other words "sorry, but...". The w1 is already critical, they already see themselves as the one to blame, the w8 is already looking outward at all the external factors.

 

[Z Buck McFate]

Kasper has an important point there about the annoyance. It goes way deeper and more resentful than you might think, and will erupt from you without warning at the absolute worst time. I was with a type 4 for several years, and I really hadn't realized how much resentment I'd built up: I was happy, and I wanted to stay happy, so I ignored the resentment. I suspect that resentment was in part responsible for our break-up. In part what I needed to do was draw stronger boundaries and not let the other person get away with particular behaviors, and if that resulted in arguments and if that resulted in a break-up sooner, that would actually be for the good. Why? Because if a type 9 is standing up for boundaries at all, then they are very likely extremely reasonable boundaries with a lot of thought behind them, because the 9 had to develop the courage to confront about them in the first place. And if those boundaries are too much for the other person, then it really isn't going to work out, and you're just finding out sooner, is all.

I challenge this (bolded). Perhaps as an aside, because I’m not saying I see this in lady x (who does seem very e9 to me, fwiw), but I have experienced e9s who err in the direction of not respecting appropriate boundaries/feel too entitled to dictate shared reality.

Using my (9w8) sister as an example- usually it's because she doesn't like that someone is pointing something out (something which she is avoiding) and she resorts to all sorts of gas-lighting tactics to make it go away. I think she's gas-lighting herself as much as anyone else- into believing the problem isn't there, or that the problem is something more pleasant to deal with than it actually is- but in doing so, she consequently seems to feel the need to impose this misdirection on others. It kinda feels like she's trying to use the "this is what the problem actually is” Jedi mind trick to control the shared reality going on around her. When it doesn't work on a peaceful level (when she can't make the problem go away with some respectful slight of hand) she resorts to heavier and heavier gas-lighting tactics, whatever it takes to never lose composure and never feel angry. Or something.

And I have an ISFP 9w8 friend who does the same thing, on a much lesser scale (whether the lesser scale is because he’s only a friend and not my family- to whom we generally show our sleepiest behaviors- I don’t know).

I really have no idea how common this is, but my only point is that I’ve experienced e9 erring on boundaries in the other direction too. So I don't think the bolded universally applies to all 9s. (Though where it does apply, boy howdy, it really does apply.)

 

[Mal12345]

I challenge this (bolded). Perhaps as an aside, because I’m not saying I see this in lady x (who does seem very e9 to me, fwiw), but I have experienced e9s who err in the direction of not respecting appropriate boundaries/feel too entitled to dictate shared reality.

Using my (9w8) sister as an example- usually it's because she doesn't like that someone is pointing something out (something which she is avoiding) and she resorts to all sorts of gas-lighting tactics to make it go away. I think she's gas-lighting herself as much as anyone else- into believing the problem isn't there, or that the problem is something more pleasant to deal with than it actually is- but in doing so, she consequently seems to feel the need to impose this misdirection on others. It kinda feels like she's trying to use the "this is what the problem actually is” Jedi mind trick to control the shared reality going on around her. When it doesn't work on a peaceful level (when she can't make the problem go away with some respectful slight of hand) she resorts to heavier and heavier gas-lighting tactics, whatever it takes to never lose composure and never feel angry. Or something.

And I have an ISFP 9w8 friend who does the same thing, on a much lesser scale (whether the lesser scale is because he’s only a friend and not my family- to whom we generally show our sleepiest behaviors- I don’t know).

I really have no idea how common this is, but my only point is that I’ve experienced e9 erring on boundaries in the other direction too. So I don't think the bolded universally applies to all 9s. (Though where it does apply, boy howdy, it really does apply.)

My wife is a 9w8. Do you have a specific example of gaslighting?

 

[Kasper]

I challenge this (bolded). Perhaps as an aside, because I’m not saying I see this in lady x (who does seem very e9 to me, fwiw), but I have experienced e9s who err in the direction of not respecting appropriate boundaries/feel too entitled to dictate shared reality.

Using my (9w8) sister as an example- usually it's because she doesn't like that someone is pointing something out (something which she is avoiding) and she resorts to all sorts of gas-lighting tactics to make it go away. I think she's gas-lighting herself as much as anyone else- into believing the problem isn't there, or that the problem is something more pleasant to deal with than it actually is- but in doing so, she consequently seems to feel the need to impose this misdirection on others. It kinda feels like she's trying to use the "this is what the problem actually is” Jedi mind trick to control the shared reality going on around her. When it doesn't work on a peaceful level (when she can't make the problem go away with some respectful slight of hand) she resorts to heavier and heavier gas-lighting tactics, whatever it takes to never lose composure and never feel angry. Or something.

And I have an ISFP 9w8 friend who does the same thing, on a much lesser scale (whether the lesser scale is because he’s only a friend and not my family- to whom we generally show our sleepiest behaviors- I don’t know).

I really have no idea how common this is, but my only point is that I’ve experienced e9 erring on boundaries in the other direction too. So I don't think the bolded universally applies to all 9s. (Though where it does apply, boy howdy, it really does apply.)

Am curious as to what you mean by 'gas-lighting tactics'?

9s are typically terrible with boundaries, we let them get pushed past the point other types would. The issue is not believing a right to asserting those boundaries in the first place. "Standing up for boundaries" is not a natural thing for a 9. This does not imply that we react with ease as a collective when they are walked over, stubbornness is something that 9s are brilliant at. When you hit on something we do not want we can become immovable and defiant, more than any other type.

I believe that uumlau comes from a point of view of a certain level of maturity in his posts, the immature version would involve stubbornness imo which is passive, not active resistance to having boundaries walked over. Am curious about your experience if that doesn't match.