[MBTI General] STJs + FPs

[Grand Admiral Crunch]

Lol my ESFJ ex thought talking animals were satanic. Sorry. I find it hilarious.

When I brought up the problem of talking animals to her, I was just shooting in the dark for a connection to her that didn't involve me pretending ot be interested in accounting/other boring stuff. I never until that instance thought talking animals were a problem. She seemed slightly amused and ran with the topic further than I would've, never hammering down specifics about the evilness of it, but acting like she'd always had a problem with these animals talking. It didn't feel like she was bullshitting me back. Maybe she was, but I felt validated, even though talking animals had never bothered me. Later I decided that it was what I thought about talking animals, and came up with the evidence to support the idea. Not that I plan to do anything about the talking animal problem, and it isn't talking animals I have a problem with per se, but that a cow is talking to a pig. Maybe their talkign to each other at all is a problem, like your ESFJ thinks....I have problems connecting with my ESFJ, so this could be useful information for me. I'll see if she picks up that conversation. I can't imagine it happening.

Anyways, I guess ESTJ's can provide validation for an INFP and I like to think they aren't bullshitting me.

 

[EJCC]

^ If the ESTJ seemed amused, then I'm not sure if they were serious. Could've been? but I dunno for certain.

 

[Thalassa]

When I brought up the problem of talking animals to her, I was just shooting in the dark for a connection to her that didn't involve me pretending ot be interested in accounting/other boring stuff. I never until that instance thought talking animals were a problem. She seemed slightly amused and ran with the topic further than I would've, never hammering down specifics about the evilness of it, but acting like she'd always had a problem with these animals talking. It didn't feel like she was bullshitting me back. Maybe she was, but I felt validated, even though talking animals had never bothered me. Later I decided that it was what I thought about talking animals, and came up with the evidence to support the idea. Not that I plan to do anything about the talking animal problem, and it isn't talking animals I have a problem with per se, but that a cow is talking to a pig. Maybe their talkign to each other at all is a problem, like your ESFJ thinks....I have problems connecting with my ESFJ, so this could be useful information for me. I'll see if she picks up that conversation. I can't imagine it happening.

Anyways, I guess ESTJ's can provide validation for an INFP and I like to think they aren't bullshitting me.

I understand. An ISTJ made me feel validated in my irrational obsession with the 80s. Being emotionally validated in something like that is pretty much a libidinous projected fantasy for IxFPs which they are likely to find in TJs.

Oh also for ESFJ believes in satanic animals...the belief itself isn't type related. Though maybe it's an Si association some Si types make? Or even an Ne webbed conclusion?

The belief itself is individual, just like loving new wave.

My ESFJ ex used to baby my love of new wave and the 80s because of his Fe, but he actually preferred punk and no wave, and 70s exploitation. What he felt kindred with was childhood nostalgia. We used to eat candy and watch Vh1 or horror movies together.

 

[Grand Admiral Crunch]

^ If the ESTJ seemed amused, then I'm not sure if they were serious. Could've been? but I dunno for certain.

Maybe that's the enjoyment an ESTJ could get from an NFP, laughing at their ridiculousness (which is cool with me)...As far as the ISFP in the ESTJ's life, well, they play sports together. I see no connection beyond that. STJ's and NFP's share a functional stack of Fi, Ne, Te, and Si. So it seems that we might be able to connect better than an ESTJ would with an SFP. Really, the ESTJ can get into Ne type stuff with me, conspiracy theories, philosophy and all that. From my perspective, we're able to enjoy the company of each other...I love my ISFP friend, very funny and fun to be around, but somewhere, there's a missed connection. She's such a "bottom line" kind of person. Her attempts at consideration of my feelings just ticks me off. Nice that she's trying, but rather she'd stop....I'm digressing...I figure I have problems with her, the ESTJ might too.

 

[Grand Admiral Crunch]

I understand. An ISTJ made me feel validated in my irrational obsession with the 80s. Being emotionally validated in something like that is pretty much a libidinous projected fantasy for IxFPs which they are likely to find in TJs.

Oh also for ESFJ believes in satanic animals...the belief itself isn't type related. Though maybe it's an Si association some Si types make? Or even an Ne webbed conclusion?

The belief itself is individual, just like loving new wave.

My ESFJ ex used to baby my love of new wave and the 80s because of his Fe, but he actually preferred punk and no wave, and 70s exploitation. What he felt kindred with was childhood nostalgia. We used to eat candy and watch Vh1 or horror movies together.

Satanic animals? LOL! I know as someone who has a problem with cartoon characters talking that I shouldn't laugh, but it's funny!

I miss the MTV, VH1 stuff I used to watch.

 

[Thalassa]

Satanic animals? LOL! I know as someone who has a problem with cartoon characters talking that I shouldn't laugh, but it's funny!

I miss the MTV, VH1 stuff I used to watch.

He and I both watched a lot of horror movies, I was raised religious and he wasn't, so he had some interesting ideas about what constitutes evil, including talking animals and.people without sexual morals.

I didn't openly laugh at him, he was my live in partner at the time, but I was utterly taken aback by it inwardly, in a "wow that's kinda goofy given the number of talking animal puppets in children's shows."

He tolerated my "things" and I his, we shared horror movies and a love of music, but ultimately after I left him over his emotional problems he refused to seek help for, instead of working on himself, he decided the problem was "you don't marry men like me, you will marry a lawyer or some guy in a suit who listens to New Order" and he in fact married a scream queen type more similar to him in his love of exploitation.

The problem wasn't us needing to be even more alike, but oh well, good luck, Godspeed, and I hope he doesn't beat his wife.

ESFJ and I also used to watch that other channel in the '00s, another music channel, with newer music, but we liked the documentaries and rock movies on Vh1 as well as the I love the 80s series ..or maybe he just indulged me with that, so I would listen to punk with him.

 

[SD45T-2]

I'm a fan of TJs - when they're yelling at someone else, that is. Preferably someone who deserved it

Time to give the scenery a good chew.

 

[HongDou]

Interesting... I am neither an STJ or an FP. But, on behalf of my INFP roommate I can say the attraction goes both ways. She loves TJs, particularly STJs. She's really drawn to objectivity and confidence. It makes her feel secure.

This is basically the same for me [MENTION=4945]EJCC[/MENTION]. The higher level of confidence and (desire for) objectivity many TJs possess is very stabilizing and makes me more secure about our future. Then again I've only dated FJs, but that's where the attraction comes from I think.

My current theory is that we find their Fi expression to be cathartic, somehow. Since we're so unwilling to express that most of the time.

My guess is it'd be the reverse for FPs - since TJs are so unwilling it makes a lot of us want to dig deeper and see what goodies they have hidden inside.

 

[Habba]

Just realized that I could, in fact, summon people here. So:
[MENTION=4644]Habba[/MENTION] (still around?)

I've always been here.

In this particular pairing I believe the driving force is the completion. These types are strong and confident in areas where the other is underdeveloped and unconfident. I can't speak for all ISTJs, but I believe we are often raised (or rise) without much contact to our softer sides. We fit into school (which is all about rules, schedules and being led by authority) so we rarely feel the need to change or develop. Our social skills are very much bound to situtations. We do what is approviate or expected at the given situtation. It's only at the elder age when those structures of authority no longer bind us (we are free to choose where to work, where to live and how to live) and we begin to see more complex social cues.

For example, as a kid I didn't like drama movies at all. They were boring. Now, at an older age I find them the best and most interesting. For example, in The Walking Dead zombies do not interest me (they never have), but the dynamics between people and the moral choices makes it thrilling.

Now, this might seem like an ideal partnership, but I beg to differ. I feel like this is a match based on fears and needs, rather than appreciation and admiration. What's that? I feel as if STJ and FP are driven towards each others because they want to learn and absord what the other person is like. "I wish I could be more social... I better hang out with more social people". While it's true that this help, these needs will be fulfilled eventually. If that happens, the relationship just lost it's main engine and needs to rely on what's left.


In short, STJ is logical and structured. Because of that, they rarely tend to grow in social and emotional sense (they rely on established structures and are left clueless when structures are taken away). FP is the opposite. These two are drawn together because they see their weakness and want to improve themselves in the company of the other. Once these needs are fulfilled, the relationship might be heading to a crisis as there's still no common language (the other prefer structure, the other doesn't).

 

[PeaceBaby]

I asked my husband and his first answer was "Because they're hot. And sexy."

Then he was serious and said he doesn't think the question is the right question. That in his opinion the reason why anyone is drawn to anyone is first the sensory experience. And he expanded that to say, once you get to know someone, the things that made him be attracted to me were "good listener and supportive, loving and open to possibilities." That there are not a lot of people like me. (I think that's a compliment lol)

 

[Zarathustra]

Was going to post this about TJs + FPs generally, but didn't want the conversation to turn into an INTJ/ENFP bitchfest, so I'm asking my fellow low-drama STJs about it instead.

Bitchfest?

Is that what it looks like to the ignorant?

*would've stayed out, but decides to crash the party due to OP's hypocritical rudeness*

My question is: If/when you are drawn to FPs, do you have any theories as to why?

My current theory is that we find their Fi expression to be cathartic, somehow. Since we're so unwilling to express that most of the time.

Yeah, pretty much.

I thought this was obvious...

We spend so much of our time suppressing Fi, in order to Te, that spending time with these beings who do the exact opposite is refreshing, freeing, and creates a "safe space" for us to stop suppressing, and start engaging with, our Fi. Because of this, I love being around FPs. I might roll my eyes every once in a while, when something they believe in, that doesn't hold up too well to rational scrutiny, comes out of their mouth, but, even then, I'm usually just being playful (unless it's a serious matter).

I'd heard that FPs like the stability and calm we bring to friendships and relationships -- and I've also heard that our restrained nature is something they find intriguing. A treasure chest they can unlock over time. You hear more about that with NTJs, but I'm sure it would still be the case with STJs. The difference would be that we appear to be holding less in.

No, you all really do just have simpler inner lives than we do.

It's not inherently a bad thing; it makes you all more stable.

And stability is one of the things they appreciate TJs for.

 

[Forever_Jung]

I like ISTJ's, and they like me We complement each other. It's not like I consciously seek them out or anything, but when I think about my friends, probably 1/3 are STJ's. We usually connect through Fi/Te.

 

[EJCC]

There is only one answer to this:




Oh and 'well duh!'

I haven't had the pleasure to spend a lot of time with any STJs. The ones that have popped out as people to me have a kind of visceral quality, are straightforward, and tend to be a little punky. Maybe you'd describe 'em as counterphobic 6 STJs? I dig it, and I wouldn't mind finding out more someday.

I've heard that from other folks, about more rebellious STJs. The punkish ones with tattoos. (I aspire to be one someday. Still planning my tattoo locations!)

(S)TJs should stick to managing obstacles that are objects and situations - not people. That's where they are a sight to behold

I'd like to think that (S)TJs can get much better at that if they work on those tendencies? But generally speaking, I think you're right.

Maybe that's the enjoyment an ESTJ could get from an NFP, laughing at their ridiculousness (which is cool with me)...As far as the ISFP in the ESTJ's life, well, they play sports together. I see no connection beyond that. STJ's and NFP's share a functional stack of Fi, Ne, Te, and Si. So it seems that we might be able to connect better than an ESTJ would with an SFP. Really, the ESTJ can get into Ne type stuff with me, conspiracy theories, philosophy and all that. From my perspective, we're able to enjoy the company of each other...I love my ISFP friend, very funny and fun to be around, but somewhere, there's a missed connection. She's such a "bottom line" kind of person. Her attempts at consideration of my feelings just ticks me off. Nice that she's trying, but rather she'd stop....I'm digressing...I figure I have problems with her, the ESTJ might too.

From my experience with SFPs, they appreciate my Ne humor as a novelty. As much as I prefer JCF over F/T sorts of distinctions most of the time, I do think that I can bond with SPs on a sensor level.

This is basically the same for me [MENTION=4945]EJCC[/MENTION]. The higher level of confidence and (desire for) objectivity many TJs possess is very stabilizing and makes me more secure about our future. Then again I've only dated FJs, but that's where the attraction comes from I think.

My guess is it'd be the reverse for FPs - since TJs are so unwilling it makes a lot of us want to dig deeper and see what goodies they have hidden inside.

Aw. Yep this definitely rings true from my experience.

Interesting that it seems like the appeal is: TJs wanting to be drawn out, and FPs wanting to draw them out. Plus, obviously, each party finding a different sort of emotional stability and safety in the other.

I've always been here.

Sorry! Hadn't seen you around in a while.

Re: the rest of your post -- that's interesting. Hadn't thought about it that way. The immediate rebuttal that comes to mind is that there's never really a "completion" stage when couples balance each other out. From the beginning until the end of a relationship, there's constant growth -- or if not, then constant change at least -- both in who the individuals are and how they relate to one another. So I can't really see there ever being a moment, in a healthy relationship based on love and trust and friendship, when one party concludes that they have officially taken everything they can get from the other, and thus have no need for them. However -- I can definitely see how that could be the case in unhealthy relationships.

I asked my husband and his first answer was "Because they're hot. And sexy."

Then he was serious and said he doesn't think the question is the right question. That in his opinion the reason why anyone is drawn to anyone is first the sensory experience. And he expanded that to say, once you get to know someone, the things that made him be attracted to me were "good listener and supportive, loving and open to possibilities." That there are not a lot of people like me. (I think that's a compliment lol)

Interesting response! Reminds me that I should have clarified in the OP that I was thinking of friendships as well as relationships.

I guess he was right in that distinction. Maybe it's not so much what draws us STJs to FPs, but what makes us want to become closer friends/etc with them. What did he mean by "open to possibilities", by the way? I understand the appeal of uniquely great people, obviously -- I mean, TJs are pretty picky. (Received a similar compliment from the ENTJ I'm dating yesterday, re: rarity. )

 

[Odi et Amo]

Maybe that's the enjoyment an ESTJ could get from an NFP, laughing at their ridiculousness (which is cool with me)...As far as the ISFP in the ESTJ's life, well, they play sports together. I see no connection beyond that. STJ's and NFP's share a functional stack of Fi, Ne, Te, and Si. So it seems that we might be able to connect better than an ESTJ would with an SFP. Really, the ESTJ can get into Ne type stuff with me, conspiracy theories, philosophy and all that. From my perspective, we're able to enjoy the company of each other...I love my ISFP friend, very funny and fun to be around, but somewhere, there's a missed connection. She's such a "bottom line" kind of person. Her attempts at consideration of my feelings just ticks me off. Nice that she's trying, but rather she'd stop....I'm digressing...I figure I have problems with her, the ESTJ might too.

My ENFP pops and ESTJ younger brother share exactly this kind of bond. My pops makes my brother laugh with his scattershot humor & pushes his intellect with his musings, which are frequently all over the place and longwinded. My brother slays my pops in response with his straightforward cynicism and deadpan little asides. Whenever we're all together on a big holiday or something, they always gravitate towards each other. Humor seems to be the glue between STJs and NFPs.

 

[EJCC]

Yeah, pretty much.

I thought this was obvious...

We spend so much of our time suppressing Fi, in order to Te, that spending time with these beings who do the exact opposite is refreshing, freeing, and creates a "safe space" for us to stop suppressing, and start engaging with, our Fi. Because of this, I love being around FPs. I might roll my eyes every once in a while, when something they believe in, that doesn't hold up too well to rational scrutiny, comes out of their mouth, but, even then, I'm usually just being playful (unless it's a serious matter).

Absolutely. I know this is why I'm so drawn to Feelers, in general. Though I was also thinking of the act of listening to their own expressions of Fi, when I was talking about catharsis. I was trying to figure out, a while ago, why I so often find myself laughing at Fi rants-- and I realized that my laughter was a release of tension.

No, you all really do just have simpler inner lives than we do.

It's not inherently a bad thing; it makes you all more stable.

And stability is one of the things they appreciate TJs for.

IME this is a pretty common misconception -- not just of STJs, but of extroverted sensors in general. The vast majority of my close friends -- and 100% of my past dates and boyfriends -- have stuck around in the initial stages because I was constantly proving their assumptions wrong, and thus intriguing them. (My ENFP best friend and current ENTJ date come to mind.) Yes, there's that extra element of stability and predictability -- but that doesn't mean there's any less to unlock.

Then again, I'm of the opinion that everyone is complex and full of interesting contradiction when you look deep enough-- even if, let's say, their preferred topics of conversation are boring.

My ENFP pops and ESTJ younger brother share exactly this kind of bond. My pops makes my brother laugh with his scattershot humor & pushes his intellect with his musings, which are frequently all over the place and longwinded. My brother slays my pops in response with his straightforward cynicism and deadpan little asides. Whenever we're all together on a big holiday or something, they always gravitate towards each other. Humor seems to be the glue between STJs and NFPs.

 

[Amargith]

Working on with awareness, and actively willing to learn and adjust their skills? Hell, even mastering those skills by embracing people for the complexity and different approach they need compared to situations and objects? Yess....definitely.

Not being aware of the limitations of their innate strengths and assuming they are just as epic when working with people yet treating them like objects and ignoring collateral damage along the way? No.......

 

[Zarathustra]

Absolutely. I know this is why I'm so drawn to Feelers, in general. Though I was also thinking of the act of listening to their own expressions of Fi, when I was talking about catharsis. I was trying to figure out, a while ago, why I so often find myself laughing at Fi rants-- and I realized that my laughter was a release of tension.

Tension caused by... suppression?

IME this is a pretty common misconception -- not just of STJs, but of extroverted sensors in general. The vast majority of my close friends -- and 100% of my past dates and boyfriends -- have stuck around in the initial stages because I was constantly proving their assumptions wrong, and thus intriguing them. (My ENFP best friend and current ENTJ date come to mind.) Yes, there's that extra element of stability and predictability -- but that doesn't mean there's any less to unlock.

You know, I will admit, and also admit that it hadn't really struck me til I read your post, that there definitely can still be a lot to unlock when it comes to STJs, despite the fact that it is more rigid, more unchanging. I do still think it leads to less being there to unlock, because it simply isn't as dynamic, as potentially-changing as what's under the hood of an NTJ -- it's essentially our formlessness (this term actually misses the mark -- as we do have some form, at any moment in time, but that form is very capable of changing, and changing potentially readily, and entirely, if the individual finds good reason to -- but is still demonstrative, when comparing NTJs to STJs) that makes us complex, that makes what's under the hood so difficult to figure out.

What's under the hood for STJs can definitely be manifold, though...
...but it is essentially (not entirely, but largely -- and definitely by comparison) static.

And it also tends to be based off past experience, less than abstract theorizing. As such, it has a tangible quality to it, a historicity. That gives it a groundedness, a way to understand precisely how it got there, and have an essentially definitive answer. NTJs, by comparison, come up with their Ni framework from a much less tangible process. It comes simply from their minds. From what they're able to conceptualize, abstract/think up, envision. There's a historicity to it, in a sense, as well, in that, there are times and places and events that might accompany their conceptualizing and thinking up and envisioning, and these and the thought-paths could potentially be explained, but the whole process will still have taken place much more up in their minds, and be less tethered to external, immediate reality, than will Si's analogous framework, and will likewise, as mentioned above, be much more subject to change, overhaul, revision.

Anyway, thanks for challenging on that. Caused me to go to a little thought space I hadn't quite explored enough.

 

[chubber]

Tension caused by... suppression?



You know, I will admit, and also admit that it hadn't really struck me til I read your post, that there definitely can still be a lot to unlock when it comes to STJs, despite the fact that it is more rigid, more unchanging. I do still think it leads to less being there to unlock, because it simply isn't as dynamic, as potentially-changing as what's under the hood of an NTJ -- it's essentially our formlessness (this term actually misses the mark -- as we do have some form, at any moment in time, but that form is very capable of changing, and changing potentially readily, and entirely, if the individual finds good reason to -- but is still demonstrative, when comparing NTJs to STJs) that makes us complex, that makes what's under the hood so difficult to figure out.

What's under the hood for STJs can definitely be manifold... but it is essentially (not entirely, but largely -- and definitely by comparison) static.

And it also tends to be based off past experience, less than abstract theorizing. As such, it has a tangible quality to it, a historicity. That gives it a groundedness, a way to understand precisely how it got there, and have an essentially definitive answer. NTJs, by comparison, come up with their Ni framework from a much less tangible process. It comes simply from their minds. From what they're able to conceptualize, abstract/think up, envision. There's a historicity to it, in a sense, as well, in that, there are times and places and events that might accompany their conceptualizing and thinking up and envisioning, and these could potentially be explained, but the whole process will still have taken place much more up in their minds, and be less tethered to external, immediate reality, than will Si's analogous framework, and will likewise, as mentioned above, be much more liable to change, overhaul, revision.

Anyway, thanks for challenging on that. Caused me to go to a little thought space I hadn't quite explored enough.

Agree with that. That makes NTJs unpredictable because to the observer we suddenly change course of direction. But in our mind it was simply an adjustment to the overall bigger picture.

 

[EJCC]

Working on with awareness, and actively willing to learn and adjust their skills? Hell, even mastering those skills by embracing people for the complexity and different approach they need compared to situations and objects? Yess....definitely.

Not being aware of the limitations of their innate strengths and assuming they are just as epic when working with people yet treating them like objects and ignoring collateral damage along the way? No.......

*sigh* Okay fine. Yes. Even when we're great managers, we still see people as tools we use to get the job done. The growth comes when we acknowledge that people, like tools, sometimes malfunction, which is the nature of the thing and thus a trait that has to be planned around.

Tension caused by... suppression?

Yeah, of course. I just meant, our Fi release around Fi-users isn't always something we decide to do. It's not all "okay, this is a safe space, so I'll open up" -- it doesn't need to be a safe space for us to be able to live vicariously through someone else's Fi expression.

You know, I will admit, and also admit that it hadn't really struck me til I read your post, that there definitely can still be a lot to unlock when it comes to STJs, despite the fact that it is more rigid, more unchanging. I do still think it leads to less being there to unlock, because it simply isn't as dynamic, as potentially-changing as what's under the hood of an NTJ -- it's essentially our formlessness (this term actually misses the mark -- as we do have some form, at any moment in time, but that form is very capable of changing, and changing potentially readily, and entirely, if the individual finds good reason to -- but is still demonstrative, when comparing NTJs to STJs) that makes us complex, that makes what's under the hood so difficult to figure out.

What's under the hood for STJs can definitely be manifold, though...
...but it is essentially (not entirely, but largely -- and definitely by comparison) static.

And it also tends to be based off past experience, less than abstract theorizing. As such, it has a tangible quality to it, a historicity. That gives it a groundedness, a way to understand precisely how it got there, and have an essentially definitive answer. NTJs, by comparison, come up with their Ni framework from a much less tangible process. It comes simply from their minds. From what they're able to conceptualize, abstract/think up, envision. There's a historicity to it, in a sense, as well, in that, there are times and places and events that might accompany their conceptualizing and thinking up and envisioning, and these and the thought-paths could potentially be explained, but the whole process will still have taken place much more up in their minds, and be less tethered to external, immediate reality, than will Si's analogous framework, and will likewise, as mentioned above, be much more subject to change, overhaul, revision.

Anyway, thanks for challenging on that. Caused me to go to a little thought space I hadn't quite explored enough.

Ok yeah, I definitely agree with that. It rings true with my experience with NTJs as well.

Also, no prob.

 

[Redbone]

Good question. I think one of the biggest things is being able to 'get' to them. Like NTJs, STJs can be very closed with others. Even with EXTJs, you can think you're close to them, really know them well and guess what? Not so. I like being able to get in, become special to them because the ones I have known have always treated me with a great deal of indulgence. I enjoyed that feeling of knowing I got special treatment that very few others received and had the privilege of being close to them...they were all so awesome...like this secret person they keep back until everything is just right for them to reveal him/her. Getting them to relax, have fun and laugh...take risks! that appealed to me very much.

Now that I think back on it, I have always had a TJ as a best friend. My best friend from 6th grade to 2nd year in college was an ISTJ. A few years later, I became best friends with an ISTJ that was 50 years older than me. My best friend now is INTJ (haha...sorry! ). I also have an ESTJ that I love very much and probably knows me better than anyone. They are both so very straightforward and honest...and usually right even if I don't always want to hear it. I love that quality about them both.

I read a little more and I have to say that I find STJs less detached. I suppose that's due to Si vs. Ni. NTJs move in mysterious ways!