[INFJ] When an INFJ doorslams you / cuts you out of their life / breaks off contact

[yeghor]

dances the macarena? i can't quite say i know him that well.

why: what is it that you think he should/shouldn't do?

I think you already know what

 

[cafe]

I'm struggling to find the love in here. It's he did this and she did that and I want this and I needy need that. What happened to, "ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country?"

That is exactly the attitude that gets me into these messes in the first place. Because no matter how I might like things to be otherwise, I am only one person and I can only do so much.

 

[Tiltyred]

I don't care what he does, as long as he doesn't do it around me.

I doorslammed my ex-husband, too, now that I think of it. His girlfriend called to tell me he was in the hospital and asking for me, and I said I wasn't coming, and she accused me of being heartless, but then she started asking me questions like "Did he interfere in your other relationships, for example, with your family, when you were together?" and I said yes, etc., and the next thing I know, I come home from work one day and my home phone message mailbox is full, and it's phone call after phone call of rants about how he never thought that I would be vindictive. From my point of view, I was not being vindictive, I was honestly answering his girlfriend's questions, but whatever. I moved, and changed my phone number, and bought a different car, and I don't know if he lives or dies, now, years later. The time for him to talk to me was back when I was asking him if he was having an affair, you see. When we were going to a marriage counselor, that would have been a good time for talking.

In my experience, the door slam does not happen for no reason. There's a whole lot that leads up to it.

 

[Z Buck McFate]

No, it's not about having the last word, but it is about being forced to submit to an external factor. Like what I said above, INFJs can limit the scope and terms of the discussion in a way that prevents me from ever really having a say. I'm so busy doing Ti style explanations or counter-arguments (which are very difficult and mentally exhausting for me personally) that I can never really speak freely and bring up the things I want to. I'm trapped into discussing what the INFJ wants to discuss and how he/she wants to discuss it. The thing is sometimes, deep down in the recesses of my mind, I can almost feel the INFJ reaching in and sweeping aside my beliefs, my opinions, my way of seeing the world, bit by bit, and filling it with their own. I can feel myself losing sight of the things that matter, but I feel helpless to stop it. I don't necessarily blame INFJs for this; for the most part it is just them communicating the way that they do naturally and they can't be expected to know how that feels on the receiving end for me personally. However, there are times when INFJs employ this technique ruthlessly and I'm pretty sure they know exactly what they're doing. They might not comprehend the full impact of it and merely see it as hard-bargaining, but it is crossing a line.

This is fascinating to me. I can’t relate to it at all in regard to beliefs, opinions, etc- because I feel like *if* my beliefs or opinions are valuable, then they can’t disappear. It’s sorta like “if 2 + 2 really does equal 4, then it will still equal 4 tomorrow, so I don’t have to put effort into remembering it.’ *But* I can relate insofar as my experience of Ne. I really can’t handle being pummeled with Ne. I can’t share ideas or theories until they’re congealed, I can’t work them out aloud against Ne- because it’s like creating sand art near 3 open doors and 4 open windows on a windy day. Ne doms especially, but even some aux- the topic changes before I get half a chance to express the single tangent I’m trying to get out of my head. Imagine using a chalkboard to work some problem out- and there's someone standing nearby who can't stand to have anything on the chalkboard for more than 3 minutes, so they erase absolutely everything you've written exactly three minutes after you've written it with no ability to discern what's still relevant and what isn't....*Ne*; after a while, it gets to the point where I can't even think around the person and I NEED to block them out just to be able to think.** And I feel like nothing gets heard- all my words just keep providing springboards for new topics, but my meaning is systematically glossed over.

The somewhat strange thing is that with certain Ne folks- who seem to be able to intuit what I’m getting at- it’s actually incredibly helpful because they can understand what I’m getting at and they can help me assemble it (semantically) faster. That’s rare, though.

I wish I could get a better handle on how Fe does this (the thing described in the above quote- other Fi'ers have stated something similar). It’s loathsome to me, the thought that I might be making someone else feel like it’s not available to disagree.

[And SK- I actually am reading that article you posted on Jena Malone and collecting my thoughts about it. (It’s long!) That was a good idea, to post a link to an objective account to see if opinions vary. The way that everyone brings their own baggage to this thread, filling in the blanks with their own experience, really does cause a lot of miscommunication.]

ENTPs like to insist that no one can leave until everything has been talked out, because that's how ENTPs win: They just bullshit until the other party gives in from exhaustion.

Here's a rule for you: If you don't want someone to bail on you, then don't treat them like crap.

FLD is my hero for, like, at least the next 24 hours probably.



**eta: And this is exactly why, I think, the opposing point of view in this thread comes off as practically sadistic to me- there seems to be this attitude like, "The amount of distress you feel because of how little discipline I have over my impulsive need to plow over you and your thoughts and your feelings does not matter, the ONLY thing that matters is how much distress *I* feel when I can't have what I want. I AM ENTITLED TO YOUR ATTENTION/AFFECTION, END OF DISCUSSION. Also: if you disagree, it's because your dominant function comes up with delusional stories to discredit what I'm saying. Even Jung says so."

 

[Tiltyred]

Mine, too.

 

[yeghor]

Thing is, I don't think we're discussing whether no means no. It seems to me that that is a level up from what we're trying to figure out. What happens to get to the point of no means no? Could there be other ways of handling the situation so that we don't even have to get to no means no?

In other thoughts:
Looking at how I go about my life, but in particular, my relationships, I do see how I tend to try to control the outcome of things as much as possible, without always realizing it. I have a particular outcome in mind--mostly keeping things running smoothly--and I try to optimize for that. But in doing that, I'm unconsciously/subconsciously/consciously making other people into puppets in my play. I'm not giving them any real say because I'm always working towards the outcome I want--not wanting to deal with the messiness of real life, or real people. Not taking into consideration that others might enjoy dealing with the messiness.

And before anyone starts with the "yeah, but's", I'm not saying that I shouldn't ever do things my way. Sometimes my way works pretty well.* It's just that when I'm not aware that I'm doing this, I'm not open to even CONSIDERING that there might be another way and that that way has just as much merit and validity as mine does. Also, I need to own the fact that I can be controlling in this way, so that if other people try to tell me that I'm doing something they consider controlling, I can at least see how that can be. Then, if I go ahead with doing it my way, it's my choice and not their fault.

ETA: *And I find, that my way in CONJUNCTION with other ways, actually ends up working much better than my way alone.

What actions did people around you consider to be controlling? How did you then modify your behaviour so that it would not come across as controlling? Can you give an example please?

I also suggested this earlier, any further thoughts are welcome:

The problem I see here in terms of INFJs and doorslam is that some INFJs may be trigger-happy when discarding certain people that Ni-Ti deductions tell them to not be OK for them...

Also slow analysis rate of Ni-Ti and Fe fearing making a mistake and creating disharmony (people not liking me, feeling shame, people turning hostile against me) and lack of instantenous Se ability to influence immediate environment paralyzes me against acting in the moment when I feel my boundaries are violated...which causes the other party not being aware of the problem penting up in my head and me not being able to release/discharge it before a critical point that results in me turning off Fe for that person...which afterwards basically means I no longer care about the other party...

So checking deductions with the said person (if he/she is open to being questioned) or some outside trusted party for advice, trying to be more and immediately vocal about perceived offenses/grievances (being more assertive assuming that the other party is receptive) may help preventing the doorslam or may allow INFJs to make a more graceful exit...

 

[Eilonwy]

[...]
I don't know if this example will help, but I offer it just in case -- I just had to doorslam a guy at work. [...]

Does your example fit the working definition, though?

the act of cutting off ties in reactions to perspectives of yourself which conflict with your ego.

I think we're all having slightly different conversations, and that's why I said I don't think it's about no means no.


ETA: I swear I'll get to all your questions, [MENTION=20531]yeghor[/MENTION]. I might have time later tonight. I'm not ignoring you. The convo is just moving faster than I have time to reply.

ETA2: Darn it, all of you! You're supposed to be the puppets in MY play. Slow it down so I can keep up!

 

[Tiltyred]

Ah, the idea that INFJs cut ties with anyone who holds up a mirror and shows them a picture they don't appreciate.
My idea is that the particulars don't matter. The reason doesn't matter. If someone doorslams you, respect it and move on.
As to the idea that one should sit still and listen to ideas about yourself that you don't agree with and that make you look bad to yourself, I don't know who would find that pleasant, and I don't know who would readily comply with it, and I'm not sure what the point of it would be to begin with. What that comes down to in plain English is listening to someone tell you how much they don't like you and wanting you to agree with them. It's not very likely, is it?

 

[digesthisickness]

ENTPs like to insist that no one can leave until everything has been talked out, because that's how ENTPs win: They just bullshit until the other party gives in from exhaustion.

Here's a rule for you: If you don't want someone to bail on you, then don't treat them like crap.

Ugh. Now, I feel like someone needs to point out that NOT ALL ENTPs use their functions the same way and therefore not all do this. I'm huge on respecting other's autonomy because autonomy is a big value to me, and being where I'm not wanted is something I try to avoid. To do otherwise is disgusting to me.

To continue arguing with someone who isn't interested in doing so for whatever personal reason is extremely non-productive and distasteful and comes off as desperate and immature in my view.

Now, I'll leave you guys to it. Defending that which shouldn't have to be defended in the first place.

 

[Society]

Thing is, I don't think we're discussing whether no means no. It seems to me that that is a level up from what we're trying to figure out. What happens to get to the point of no means no? Could there be other ways of handling the situation so that we don't even have to get to no means no?

neither, at least as far as what i am discussing.

i am not really interested in the argument on whether it is or isn't justified because then i end up counter-arguing the supporting ideologies by following their implications and the people on the other side just end up feeling ethically & ideologically prosecuted & then associate the emotional tone of shaming along side it. yes, i was surprised to find out that it got you (specifically) to take a step back and stop to think and re examine things, and i am happy about that and making a friend in the process, but i am not really oriented towards getting everyone here to do that.

in the same time,at this point i am not really interested in "how to avoid the doorslam" because even if it is ethically justifiable from the point of view of the doorslammer to cut off their relationships, i think it's self-destructively insane to knowingly & lucidly go forth building & trusting in relationships with one. i am aware i could be wrong and i have placed the arguments in the open to let anyone address them, but that's not anywhere close to a high priority for me: i'm not invested in looking for the instruction book for that situation because as long as the arguments against it still stand i am not open to knowingly put myself in that situation in the first place. there might be dumber things to do, but not by much.

 

[yeghor]

*Disgruntled ENTP rant*

 

[Eilonwy]

neither, at least as far as what i am discussing.

i am not really interested in the argument on whether it is or isn't justified because then i end up counter-arguing the supporting ideologies by following their implications and the people on the other side just end up feeling ethically & ideologically prosecuted & then associate the emotional tone of shaming along side it. yes, i was surprised to find out that it got you (specifically) to take a step back and stop to think and re examine things, and i am happy about that and making a friend in the process, but i am not really oriented towards getting everyone here to do that.

in the same time,at this point i am not really interested in "how to avoid the doorslam" because even if it is ethically justifiable from the point of view of the doorslammer to cut off their relationships, i think it's self-destructively insane to knowingly & lucidly go forth building & trusting in relationships with them. i am aware i could be wrong and i have placed the arguments in the open to let anyone address them, but that's not anywhere close to a high priority for me: i'm not invested in looking for the instruction book for that situation because as long as the arguments against it still stand i am not open to knowingly put myself in that situation in the first place. there might be dumber things to do, but not by much.

Gah! I'm guilty of having a slightly different conversation, then, too. Carry on.

ETA: Although I'm not trying to get everyone here to be your friend, either. More using the whole situation as an example to get to some level of awareness. I said it better in a previous post, but I'm too lazy to go find it and quote it right now. It may show up here later.

ETA2: [MENTION=15291]Mane[/MENTION], I do realize that I went slightly to the right of what you were actually saying in even answering this--sorry. I see it, but it seems I still don't stop doing it. But messiness is okay, right?

 

[digesthisickness]

 

[Tiltyred]

I think anyone is capable of door slamming. I think ENTPs have a hard time understanding when they've gone too far. That's my experience with them, anyway. So to reinterate my earlier suggestion, maybe it's more productive, if you want to avoid being doorslammed, to try to prevent it on your own side first.

But accepting loss is part of life, unfortunately. Sometimes, despite everyone's best efforts, things just don't work out.

Mane, I hope you find the secret of discovering someone is a doorslammer before the fact, and I'll remember in time not to fall in love with someone's ideals when they haven't actually realized any of them.

 

[Society]

not sure if the edit is an attempt at a graceful exit, but if so i won't add to the benter: good luck

 

[Society]

Ugh. Now, I feel like someone needs to point out that NOT ALL ENTPs use their functions the same way and therefore not all do this. I'm huge on respecting other's autonomy because autonomy is a big value to me, and being where I'm not wanted is something I try to avoid.

i've considered that route - can i ask what comes in that package? basically whenever anyone makes any kind of commitments or asks you to trust them just add a "unless they doorslam me" disclaimer in the back of the mental note? any claim anyone make about what they believe they would/wouldn't do always needs an "except when doing so would conflict with your ego" disclaimer? i am sort of adopted an everything is for now mentality on/off... well, for now. but to keep it permanently? would you be able to really trust anyone but yourself? or... is that the point?

 

[RDF]

i've considered that route - can i ask what comes in that package? basically whenever anyone makes any kind of commitments or asks you to trust them just add a "unless they doorslam me" "unless I treat them like crap" disclaimer in the back of the mental note? […]

Once the quote is fixed, then yeah, that's kind of how things work in the real world.

 

[RDF]

Ugh. Now, I feel like someone needs to point out that NOT ALL ENTPs use their functions the same way and therefore not all do this. I'm huge on respecting other's autonomy because autonomy is a big value to me, and being where I'm not wanted is something I try to avoid. To do otherwise is disgusting to me.

To continue arguing with someone who isn't interested in doing so for whatever personal reason is extremely non-productive and distasteful and comes off as desperate and immature in my view.

Now, I'll leave you guys to it. Defending that which shouldn't have to be defended in the first place.

Just busting Mane's chops.

Mane keeps trying to create an obligation on the other person's side ("You're not allowed to doorslam me") while ignoring any complicity or obligation relating to how he got into that situation in the first place. Kind of like the criminal complaining about the sentence he received in the courtroom while downplaying how he ended up in the courtroom in the first place.

You, on the other hand, understand how things work in the real world.

 

[RDF]

FLD is my hero for, like, at least the next 24 hours probably.

Mine, too.

Cool! Thanks!

 

[Society]

oh cool @FDL - you found out why my ex doorslammed me! tell me exactly: what did i do? how exactly did i treat her like crap? give me the dirt man!