[INTJ] INTJ's - do you feel you unintentionally create argument?

[entropie]

We find you oddly robotic.

And we find you oddly unwise

 

[Within]

I find INTJ arguments can go like this:

INTJ [quizzical]: Don't you think it's X rather than Y?
Me: No, I think Y is more accurate. It seems more accurate to me.
INTJ [pressing]: But why?
Me: I dunno. I just feel that it's more plausible. Both options have logical premises, so I can't dismiss them on that basis. Therefore, I choose these one for these reasons...
INTJ [thinking]: Ok.
Me: What do you think?
INTJ: Well, it's difficult to say either way.

The mistake you made is where you assume that it's the INTJ who initiated the discussion. It's completely illogical to ask for advice when the expected outcome is another let down or the fact that it does not accomplish anything. I can't speak for many but since I only know myself and one other INTJ, the common denominator present here is to resolve issues, and push through them rather than creating new ones.

However I could see myself do this in order to simply brush off a obnoxious extrovert where all else have already failed.

 

[Jaguar]

INTJ: Well, it's difficult to say either way.

Why were you pursuing your line of argument so aggressively if you can't actually commit to it?

The content of that post is inconsistent with many of the INTJs in this forum.

 

[entropie]

yea thats more like entp style

 

[Jaguar]

yea thats more like entp style

You said it. I didn't.

 

[Adasta]

The content of that post is inconsistent with many of the INTJs in this forum.

Good to know.

 

[NathanZ]

Answer to original question: Yes.

I find that my blunt style is often perceived as arrogance or flippancy, and that pisses people off. Working in an industry that is dominated by more 'touchy-feely' folks means that I often have to use lots and lots of 'softening phrases' before I can get to the point.

 

[INTP]

Answer to original question: Yes.

I find that my blunt style is often perceived as arrogance or flippancy, and that pisses people off. Working in an industry that is dominated by more 'touchy-feely' folks means that I often have to use lots and lots of 'softening phrases' before I can get to the point.

i dont think its the blunt style that makes INTJs often seem arrogant, its the "i am right and you are wrong because i am me and i am superior" attitude(which you might see in many of the younger ones and in many of the older ones that are not really grown up from it) that cant be changed no matter how much you try to reason with them. and the fact that if they are like that, they dont see it themselves, but just say that others are crap and that their opinion doesent really matter since they disagree and thus are inferior.

 

[highlander]

Hi,

I've noticed that I often attract argumentative responses from people. Maybe I'm just inherently annoying and people just feel compelled to set me straight, but often I feel that simple remarks I make (usually commentary), provoke others to disagree with me. This has always happened with me, but I'm noticing it more and more now. I suspect it is because I come off as unintentionally authoritative on a subject (talking out of my ass?). I try to command my language precisely when around others.

Do any INTJ's or perhaps INTP's specifically identify with this? Is this an INTX thing, at all? Do you ever get taken aback by people's responses to what you think are perfectly reasonable statements that require no further clarification or argument?

Maybe you perceive them as argumentative responses because their response doesn't fit your worldview and then you start arguing which then causes it to turn into an argument

 

[ReflecTcelfeR]

Everything I say is met with opposition at my work. I can never tell if I am wrong, or if they just don't like my tone.

 

[RaptorWizard]

Arguments keep the gears of the mind turning in an epic perpetual motion scheme, as without it, there is no change, and hence, there is no improvement upon the current systems, so it follows that we should challenge all incompetence, even if those who diplay it are too weak to see it in themselves, and accept the differences that must be made.

It is because of this confrontational philosophy I hold true, that lots of people are always offended by what, to them, seems an interrogation I conduct upon them, without pity, and without mercy. Really though, my intent is not to make people suffer. Rather, I believe that we become stronger from conflict, and that it also gives our lives purpose and meaning, as without it, we would have nothing to achieve, no adverisity to overcome. This is why work is so important. What we do with it is of inestimable value.

 

[IZthe411]

I have- because my approach has been taken as an attack/argument on another person's opinion, when it's not the case. Especially where I'm passionate.

Most times I'm interested in understanding the logic behind the statement, so I will ask questions to draw that out.

It does get my attention when people make blanket statements and have no basis to support it. My line of questions aren't to start an argument, but hopefully inspire the person to take a few moments to think about what they are saying.

 

[COLORATURA]

Usually, people take what I say as insightful or intelligent. There are a few who do not, but usually because they don't understand what I am saying. I get frustrated when they can't understand, though, which doesn't help.

I have learned, though, to let people know that I am playing "Devil's Advocate," and in no way mean them harm.

 

[NathanZ]

Everything I say is met with opposition at my work. I can never tell if I am wrong, or if they just don't like my tone.

Exactly. It's often less about How Things Are at my work, and more about How Things Look.

 

[NathanZ]

i dont think its the blunt style that makes INTJs often seem arrogant, its the "i am right and you are wrong because i am me and i am superior" attitude(which you might see in many of the younger ones and in many of the older ones that are not really grown up from it) that cant be changed no matter how much you try to reason with them. and the fact that if they are like that, they dont see it themselves, but just say that others are crap and that their opinion doesent really matter since they disagree and thus are inferior.

I can totally dig that, and in my youth I was pretty darn full of myself (I hide it better now ) and got into a lot of unnecessary pissing contests about the most pointless junk. The desire to be right, to assert rightness, is particulary strong in INTJ. However, although I feel that I'm more open to discussion and argument now, my style of speaking is still pretty blunt and direct, and lots of people take it the wrong way at first.

 

[Emerill]

All of the time I receive comments that I tend to challenge others, even when I think I am just having a normal conversation. Other times, people love my points, but find me rather intimidating. It's something that bothers me, it frustrates me.

 

[Coriolis]

i dont think its the blunt style that makes INTJs often seem arrogant, its the "i am right and you are wrong because i am me and i am superior" attitude(which you might see in many of the younger ones and in many of the older ones that are not really grown up from it) that cant be changed no matter how much you try to reason with them. and the fact that if they are like that, they dont see it themselves, but just say that others are crap and that their opinion doesent really matter since they disagree and thus are inferior.

The world is full of people who think they are right all the time and better than others. The typical bluntness of INTJs makes this particularly easy to see. In other types, it is obscured by a more sophisticated social veneer, and only becomes evident when they are directly challenged/threatened.

Most times I'm interested in understanding the logic behind the statement, so I will ask questions to draw that out.

It does get my attention when people make blanket statements and have no basis to support it. My line of questions aren't to start an argument, but hopefully inspire the person to take a few moments to think about what they are saying.

Same here. Broad, unsubstantiated claims draw my attention like blood in the water attracts a shark. The result is about the same, too.

 

[INTP]

The world is full of people who think they are right all the time and better than others. The typical bluntness of INTJs makes this particularly easy to see. In other types, it is obscured by a more sophisticated social veneer, and only becomes evident when they are directly challenged/threatened.

yea, but tert(and inferior with ETJs) Fi makes it hard to valuate ones own worth properly in conscious manner. this can easily lead to conscious paying attention on only to things that support the ego point of view and make it easier for an TJ to act out in very egoistic manner. but usually with those cases there is something in the unconscious that is telling that the person is crap and worthless and cause self-doubt, which is then filtered out to a large degree and ego defending itself to only paying attention to things that support the opposite of 'worthless crap'.

for example something like crap social skills or the ability to express feelings or thoughts properly might cause complexes of inferiority, which are nullified by focusing on being smart(for example) and pushed back to unconscious. INTJs often are very smart people and its ok to feel proud about that, but if there is lots of shit pushing from the unconscious and saying that you are crap, it needs to be either countered with focusing on being smart, which too often leads to feelings of superiority and assumptions that the INTJ is always right and always smarter. because admitting of being wrong(or in extreme cases even questioning the possibility that the other person might be right), would trigger that complex about being crap and it would hurt like hell, so the ego needs to grow or humble, but that would cause extreme anxiety and low self-worth, in extreme cases maybe even depression(tho which can help the person grow extremely much if its dealt properly).

like you said, bluntness only makes this show. but its the expression about the matter that pisses off people, no one cares if you think you are the best, but dont show it in any way.

 

[bedeviled1]

Would this kind of bluntness be typical in all INTJ's?

 

[Coriolis]

yea, but tert(and inferior with ETJs) Fi makes it hard to valuate ones own worth properly in conscious manner. this can easily lead to conscious paying attention on only to things that support the ego point of view and make it easier for an TJ to act out in very egoistic manner. but usually with those cases there is something in the unconscious that is telling that the person is crap and worthless and cause self-doubt, which is then filtered out to a large degree and ego defending itself to only paying attention to things that support the opposite of 'worthless crap'.

for example something like crap social skills or the ability to express feelings or thoughts properly might cause complexes of inferiority, which are nullified by focusing on being smart(for example) and pushed back to unconscious. INTJs often are very smart people and its ok to feel proud about that, but if there is lots of shit pushing from the unconscious and saying that you are crap, it needs to be either countered with focusing on being smart, which too often leads to feelings of superiority and assumptions that the INTJ is always right and always smarter. because admitting of being wrong(or in extreme cases even questioning the possibility that the other person might be right), would trigger that complex about being crap and it would hurt like hell, so the ego needs to grow or humble, but that would cause extreme anxiety and low self-worth, in extreme cases maybe even depression(tho which can help the person grow extremely much if its dealt properly).

like you said, bluntness only makes this show. but its the expression about the matter that pisses off people, no one cares if you think you are the best, but dont show it in any way.

Your description sounds more like an INTJ in a serious Ni-Fi loop. Te normally should short-circuit counterproductive self-doubt by providing a more objective and realistic view of one's ability. This cuts both ways, showing us what we need to work on, and confirming what we are already good at. Even when we are justified in asserting our position, however, our style can leave a negative impression on others. Contrast this with other types who may be just as certain of their correctness, but sugar-coat it with pleasantries, caveats, and even flattery, and as a consequence are more well-received (even when they really are wrong).

Would this kind of bluntness be typical in all INTJ's?

As typical as any part of the standard type description. Everyone is an individual, and when we divide all of humanity into 16 boxes, there is bound to be much variation within each one.

In general, INTJs are very direct and waste little effort on pleasantries or social convention, unless and until we learn how this can help us be more effective. We often see no point in saying anything at all, but when we do it tends to be unvarnished, concise, and frank. (The stereotypical example is that we will actually tell someone if that dress makes them look fat.)