[Traditional Enneagram] self development for 5's

[garbage]

The biggest 'bang for the buck' for any Enneatype is simply being aware of the core issue, and everything else follows from that. Not easily, of course, but it'll follow with practice.

Here's yet another wall of text on the subject of Five growth:

Their independent and challenging nature can allow Fives to question not only what they observe but to question authority as well. That challenging of authority provides an opportunity to Fives—a chance to become free of the programming and conditioning that authorities impose on members of all cultures and that reinforce belief in concepts and ideas and dogma and all else contained in that unlimited pool of nonsense that has been dreamed up by men who would control. Fives' ability to observe with detachment can initiate their movement along a "path" to Realization that results in their living out the remainder of the manifestation in an AS IF fashion. Via Realization, Fives (as is the case with all personality types that finally Realize) can be freed of the incessant whirling and twisting and movement of the “mind.” They can get in touch with their instincts, can be freed of the effects of their programming and conditioning, and can begin living in a reasonable, sane, AS IF fashion. Realization allows Fives to transcend their focus on a fictional, scary “future” and to live more in the present … in the moment. As with all types, Realization can allow Fives to be less “self”-conscious and less “self”-absorbed. Then, rather than having a fear of being overwhelmed by reality, Realized Fives will understand Reality (and will enjoy the AS IF living that accompanies being in touch with Reality). They will no longer be driven to create and sustain an appearance of extreme competence or be driven to display all of their vast “knowledge.” Learned ignorance will be set aside and natural living will happen. No matter what your personality type, would that not be preferable (relatively speaking) to the chaotic existence that results when persons believe in dualities?

Henderson, Floyd (2010-10-08). LIBERATION (Attaining Freedom from Personality via Realization)

Hopefully that helps someone. Henderson has an interesting way of looking at the Enneagram, for sure.

So, yeah. For Fives, growth means to get out there and apply, to expend resources rather than hoard them, and to understand reality less by intellectualizing it and more by internalizing and experiencing it. This is another repackaging of what's already been said in this thread. Unfortunately, it's not an easy lesson to teach with words or to deconstruct with thought; by its nature, it must be experienced in order to be learned.

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However, since my quote mentions instinct, I should clarify that Mal is right on target with respect to raw instinct:

Instinct is how most people react to their emotions. This results in random, automatized behavior as it is based in childhood emotional programming. They always react the same way to the same emotions, and never think to question their emotional reactions, unless perhaps there is some severely negative consequence that they cannot escape from.

So, perhaps less "act childishly on emotions" and more "recognize, understand, embrace, and properly channel emotions." (Emotions are signals for something; I wish more people understood this instead of simply allowing themselves to react to them in the moment and never learn from them.)

 

[Rail Tracer]

So, perhaps less "act childishly on emotions" and more "recognize, understand, embrace, and properly channel emotions." (Emotions are signals for something; I wish more people understood this instead of simply allowing themselves to react to them in the moment and never learn from them.)

This.

For a 5, it means to not dismiss those emotions just as emotions, but to know they play a role in your intelligence. In that same vain, a 5 needs to notice and use those emotions in a constructive manner just as a 9 needs to notice anger in the underlying surface just to be able to channel that anger constructively. To fully engage a person, you need to be able to engage them physically (in this case.... online,) mentally, and emotionally. Lacking one, and you are doing a disservice to you and the other person. As we are withdrawn types, the focus is to engage.

"Love is not the opposite of hate, it's apathy." Any emotion, is therefore, the opposite of apathy... as apathy contains little or no emotion.

Note: This applies just as much to myself.

 

[Coriolis]

Is engaging someone with emotion always preferable, even if the emotions are negative (anger, contempt, hostility)? I have long appreciated the warning value of emotions and use them as an indicator that something requires attention, but engaging with them has always seemed to do more harm than good.

[MENTION=5578]bologna[/MENTION]
That was a decent explanation. I'm not sure I understand what that author means by realization, though. Is it the same as integration, or more like what you describe as internalizing reality? (Not sure what this means, either . . . )

 

[Mal12345]

Is engaging someone with emotion always preferable, even if the emotions are negative (anger, contempt, hostility)? I have long appreciated the warning value of emotions and use them as an indicator that something requires attention, but engaging with them has always seemed to do more harm than good.

[MENTION=5578]bologna[/MENTION]
That was a decent explanation. I'm not sure I understand what that author means by realization, though. Is it the same as integration, or more like what you describe as internalizing reality? (Not sure what this means, either . . . )

The AS IF idea presented by Henderson is unknown to me - in theory and probably in practice too.

 

[Rail Tracer]

Is engaging someone with emotion always preferable, even if the emotions are negative (anger, contempt, hostility)? I have long appreciated the warning value of emotions and use them as an indicator that something requires attention, but engaging with them has always seemed to do more harm than good.

With any situation, what is the outcome? If you are going to tell a boss to go screw himself, what is going to happen?
If you are going to tell someone you care about that you are mad at them? What is going to happen?

Which is why I say to use emotion constructively.

 

[Mal12345]

AS IF what? I don't get it.

 

[VagrantFarce]

Don't presume to "know" anything - stop inventing categories and limits because you're too afraid to let go of your own thoughts and let things happen without your approval and understanding.

It's those pesky thoughts that you need to let go of, and it really is that simple. Right now your mind is a tyranny that runs your life, and you need to switch it off.

 

[Mal12345]

Don't presume to "know" anything - stop inventing categories and limits because you're too afraid to let go of your own thoughts and let things happen without your approval and understanding.

It's those pesky thoughts that you need to let go of, and it really is that simple. Right now your mind is a tyranny that runs your life, and you need to switch it off.

Is that what AS IF means?

Twenty years ago I learned from the enneagram to start saying "I don't know" to questions, instead of acting like I know all about stuff. It certainly makes life less stressful to just shrug and walk away. I've done that with heated political issues, such as abortion. I don't know what abortions should be allowed, if any. Then I go on to say that nobody really knows. People presume to know on the basis of God's will, but they don't know God's will.

 

[VagrantFarce]

Is that what AS IF means?

I'm just posting generally, not meant to be aimed directly at you.

 

[Mal12345]

I'm just posting generally, not meant to be aimed directly at you.

Then nobody knows what AS IF living is supposed to entail?

 

[ReflecTcelfeR]

Live as if what you believe will not occur.

 

[Mal12345]

Live as if what you believe will not occur.

For example? My INTJ 5w6 Sp/So Mormon friend who believes the slippery-slope idea of the country's moral decline. He believes in the future certain drugs, and prostitution, will be legal, the age of consent will be below 18, etc.

 

[ReflecTcelfeR]

For example? My INTJ 5w6 Sp/So Mormon friend who believes the slippery-slope idea of the country's moral decline. He believes in the future certain drugs, and prostitution, will be legal, the age of consent will be below 18, etc.

Precisely.

I mean there is a possibility he is right, but attitudes like that are extremely self-defeatist. Unless he does plan to try to prevent the situation.

 

[garbage]

[MENTION=5578]bologna[/MENTION]
That was a decent explanation. I'm not sure I understand what that author means by realization, though. Is it the same as integration, or more like what you describe as internalizing reality? (Not sure what this means, either . . . )

AS IF what? I don't get it.

From what I can gather, "AS IF living" is synonymous to "Realization" in his eyes. Something along the lines of realization of the 'true self'--not allowing one of the nine basic fears to define or drive you. It's pretty nebulous and unclear, though it seems to be about overcoming the core defense mechanism of the type. Some authors believe that this is equivalent to integration (e.g. 5 to 8), but it's likely much more general than that--connected to concepts such as individuation.

The thing about 'internalizing reality' is that it's difficult as hell to explain by its nature--which is understandably frustrating. Perhaps it can be explained as a mindset that differs from trying to intellectualize and categorize the world--gaining understanding through experience and absorption rather than through ratiocination.

I would venture that the 5 would Realize (or individualize, integrate, etc.) by 'internalizing reality.'

 

[Mal12345]

From what I can gather, "AS IF living" is synonymous to "Realization" in his eyes. Something along the lines of realization of the 'true self'--not allowing one of the nine basic fears to define or drive you. It's pretty nebulous and unclear, though it seems to be about overcoming the core defense mechanism of the type. Some authors believe that this is equivalent to integration (e.g. 5 to 8), but it's likely much more general than that--connected to concepts such as individuation.

The thing about 'internalizing reality' is that it's difficult as hell to explain by its nature--which is understandably frustrating. Perhaps it can be explained as a mindset that differs from trying to intellectualize and categorize the world--gaining understanding through experience and absorption rather than through ratiocination.

I would venture that the 5 would Realize (or individualize, integrate, etc.) by 'internalizing reality.'

So act as if the self is realized in the here and now? Because the world is not limiting us, we our limiting ourselves through a worldview that is limited? A person whose mindset is limited will never be free.

 

[Coriolis]

Live as if what you believe will not occur.

But what if what you believe is something positive, like there will be peace in the Middle East in our lifetime, or a cure for cancer? In these cases, would this perspective mean preparing oneself for the worst case scenario? 5's already tend to do well at this - perhaps too well.

So act as if the self is realized in the here and now? Because the world is not limiting us, we our limiting ourselves through a worldview that is limited? A person whose mindset is limited will never be free.

I'm not sure there is a person alive whose world view is completely unlimited. I'm not sure such a world view is possible, or even desirable. Unlimited possibilities, perhaps, but unlimited reality? It seems a bit like choices. It is nice to have more options (perhaps infinite?), but as soon as we choose one - which job to take, which house to buy - we accept the corresponding constraint of setting aside all the untaken choices.

 

[ReflecTcelfeR]

But what if what you believe is something positive, like there will be peace in the Middle East in our lifetime, or a cure for cancer? In these cases, would this perspective mean preparing oneself for the worst case scenario? 5's already tend to do well at this - perhaps too well.

Then you shouldn't follow what I said.

 

[Mal12345]

I'm not sure there is a person alive whose world view is completely unlimited. I'm not sure such a world view is possible, or even desirable. Unlimited possibilities, perhaps, but unlimited reality? It seems a bit like choices. It is nice to have more options (perhaps infinite?), but as soon as we choose one - which job to take, which house to buy - we accept the corresponding constraint of setting aside all the untaken choices.

That's because a reality of unlimited possibilities is not an objectifiable condition. It is a powerful subjective condition which requires an attitude of faith. This is just the opposite of a typical 5 worldview which focuses on objectivity and science.

Given the choice of which job to take or which house to buy is not a delimiter of faith. Faith transcends all such objective limits. Making choices, thus delimiting your options, only delimits to those who refuse to acknowledge faith.

 

[Mycroft]

I don't intend to sound like I'm attacking anyone, but this variety of "self help" is precisely what gives us fives trouble: we put systems of thought between ourselves and reality. We think that if we can find just the right philosophy or outlook, it will be a flawless road map and we'll finally have the means to deal with life.

In my experience, this just leads to a loop where I'm excited about some new system of thought, overextend myself, and end up crashing and spending as much time alone as possible for days or weeks at a time. The only method of dealing with life I've found is to just ration out my extraversion, as it were, and to deal with the external world calmly until I feel I'm getting tired and call it a day.

The only way to get better at something is by doing it. We fives are the ones who think we can read a book on how to swim.

 

[Mal12345]

I don't intend to sound like I'm attacking anyone, but this variety of "self help" is precisely what gives us fives trouble: we put systems of thought between ourselves and reality. We think that if we can find just the right philosophy or outlook, it will be a flawless road map and we'll finally have the means to deal with life.

In my experience, this just leads to a loop where I'm excited about some new system of thought, overextend myself, and end up crashing and spending as much time alone as possible for days or weeks at a time. The only method of dealing with life I've found is to just ration out my extraversion, as it were, and to deal with the external world calmly until I can feel I'm getting tired and to call it a day.

The only way to get better at something is by doing it. We fives are the ones who think we can read a book on how to swim.

It's more a matter of wishing that reading a book on swimming would have the same effect as practicing to swim. Because there is a certain symptom caused by living in one's head too much that makes reality seem off-putting. This was over 20 years ago in my case, but there was a time when I was unwilling to walk off the sidewalk and step on a blade of grass. I was so aloof that I didn't want to affect reality.

So by analogy, reality is like a pond of very still water. Throwing a tiny rock into it, or even dipping a big toe, sends ripples throughout the pond that influence many other things. The person who invented the theory that a butterfly flapping its wings in a South American rainforest can lead to a tornado in the US was a type 5. Fives on a certain level are hyper-aware of this.