[Traditional Enneagram] self development for 5's

[Coriolis]

Self-help for 5's

In reading one of the other threads here, I ran across the following link with information about 5's:

The Distinctions of Type 5

This paragraph especially stood out:

Unhealthy Fives also stay distant from their own emotions by living in a world of information and ideas. The more they cut themselves off, however, the more they struggle with feelings of emptiness, loneliness and compulsive need. It's like trying to talk yourself out of being hungry. At this stage, a Five may be slow to know how she feels because she can only reach her feelings through a lengthy sequence of thinking. Unhealthy Fives worship gods of reason and try to look distantly down on their own emotions. This can also translate into a superior/arrogant attitude towards other people.

I was taken aback by how familiar this sounds. Yes, I can see how this falls under the heading of unhealthy behavior, which suggests that it should be addressed somehow, but how? My knowledge of enneagram is limited. While I am fairly confident in my type designation (5w6 sp), I am at a loss when it comes to using the enneagram system for actual self-improvement. I've read about wings, tritypes, directions of integration, etc. but always end up wondering: now what do I actually DO?

Have any other 5's been able to use enneagram to effect meaningful change in yourself? How did you do it? Comments from other types are welcome, too.

 

[VagrantFarce]

Get comfortable with spontaneity - recognise that when you choose to conceal yourself, or when you choose to withdraw participation, you're only doing yourself a disservice. And stop over thinking the problem, because too much thinking is the problem. Get in touch with your body and your chest and your intuition, rather than relying on the models that you've built in your head.

And that's not a scary as it sounds, so don't let fear drive you further down the rabbit hole. Fear is the problem for Fives, since it drives them to detach from the world - just try to recognise that there is nothing worth being afraid of.

 

[Mycroft]

If you figure this out please let the rest of us know!

I've just come to accept that fear is something I have to live with. Really, when you get down to it, fear is something we all have to live with, it's just that in 5s this fact takes the psychological center stage. You just learn to hold your breath and submerge yourself in the outer world for gradually greater lengths of time.

That's been my experience, at least.

 

[Elfboy]

[MENTION=9811]Coriolis[/MENTION]
- don't forget that the main purpose of learning is so that you can actually do something with it
- learn to quite your mind. if you thinking about things, you're just going to freak yourself out, retreat back into your cave, rinse and repeat. the best way to handle a problem is to make an effort to fix it as fast as possible.
- research and intellectual pursuits are well and good, but keep them in perspective. the purpose of learning is a) to put it to practical use or b) as a leisure activity to engage in after your day to day activities have been taken care of.
- keep the principle of the point of diminishing returns and the 80/20 principle in mind. you don't need to be familiar with 100% of the knowledge on a subject in order to begin, and if you try to do this, you will never get around to starting. building a foundation is great to a point, but eventually you have to move on and start building the rest of the house

in summary, knowledge is the servant of action and not the other way around

PS: good luck from a fellow head center type also trying to integrate

 

[Mycroft]

in summary, knowledge is the servant of action and not the other way around

Some people may think so, others would argue the opposite. This is a matter of preference and not very practical advice.

 

[VagrantFarce]

Try to recognise how you're subconsciously framing your own existence - this silly assumption that you don't have the time and energy needed to face the world, and that it's too scary to put your first foot forward without thinking it over or otherwise "looking inward". Don't take anything for granted about yourself - absolutely everything is up for debate. The sooner you get back in touch with all that energy in your gut & the love in your heart, the sooner you'll find the strength and passion you need to embrace life.

This isn't something you have to learn, either - it's something you need to reconnect with. I bet it will feel intensely familiar, and you'll wonder what all the fuss was about.

It's a lot easier and a lot less scary than you think, just breathe deep and go for it.

 

[Z Buck McFate]

Have any other 5's been able to use enneagram to effect meaningful change in yourself? How did you do it? Comments from other types are welcome, too.

I hear you, a lot of times I’ll read a 5 description and think it’s dead on, but that does little in helping me figure out how to change it. I mean, when the overwhelming urge to withdraw and think a little harder about things has been pointed out to you- so withdrawing to think more about it is probably a bad idea- where do you go from there?

One thing I have found very helpful is to just notice and be more aware of when I’m doing it. And what helps me do that, more than anything else, is reading the ‘affirmation’ type things every day. I personally find “don’t withdraw to think about stuff- just act on it” advice to be unhelpful because essentially it’s like saying: “stop being e5, problem solved.” All it does is make me withdraw and think “okay, how can I stop withdrawing so that I can act on things immediately” (and of course, if that’s something I could figure out by withdrawing to think about it….). But reading the affirmation things helps me to stop withdrawing by helping to pinpoint the reason I’m doing it in the first place. It’s kept in bite size manageable chunks- but in reading a couple every day, they build up and I really do feel more mindful of how being e5 influences my default mode of thinking all day long. I really do have a better grasp on how much I *feel* like I need to withdraw to think about things. In the moment “I *could* act now, and I realize I’m reluctant because of my own fears, but I’m *choosing* to think about it/plan it out further instead” occurs to me instead of just blindly feeling the NEED to withdraw and take some time. I didn’t even realize how often I do it.

Enneagram institute emails daily ‘enneathoughts’ (for free, link here) when you sign up for them, and I’ve found most of them quite insightful. Most of them say something like “notice this urge in you to ________ today.” Also- The Wisdom Of The Enneagram has some helpful practical advice (unlike most books which, as stated in the op, mostly contain descriptions...while the descriptions may be fantastic, they don't really help change anything).

 

[Coriolis]

in summary, knowledge is the servant of action and not the other way around

This is already very much how I approach life, though I won't claim it as an absolute truth. As an INTJ 5, I usually have no trouble acting on my thoughts and research. In other words, I readily engage with the world all the time to accomplish things I consider worthwhile, and have generally been successful in this regard.

What I identify with most in the excerpt I posted is the preference for information and ideas over anything emotion-related. I engage with the world, but almost exclusively on an intellectual and conceptual basis, and often with some specific practical end in mind. As the quote describes, I seem to reach feelings mainly through thinking processes.

Try to recognise how you're subconsciously framing your own existence - this silly assumption that you don't have the time and energy needed to face the world, and that it's too scary to put your first foot forward without thinking it over or otherwise "looking inward". Don't take anything for granted about yourself - absolutely everything is up for debate. The sooner you get back in touch with all that energy in your gut & the love in your heart, the sooner you'll find the strength and passion you need to embrace life.

There is something important here, though I am not grasping it completely on first read. Yes, for me it is definitely a matter of time and energy, moreso than fear. Certain activities and pursuits just don't make it far enough up my priority list for me to be willing to allocate time and energy to them. Also, I can much more readily tap into gut energy; much of my motivation to put plans into action feeds on this, as well as my focus/intensity in seeing them through. Heart energy is another matter, though.

As for fear, I understood that every etype was motivated by fear, but the nature of that fear differed for each type.

I hear you, a lot of times I’ll read a 5 description and think it’s dead on, but that does little in helping me figure out how to change it. I mean, when the overwhelming urge to withdraw and think a little harder about things has been pointed out to you- so withdrawing to think more about it is probably a bad idea- where do you go from there?

Exactly. It is precisely because I am trying to act on this knowledge and not just sit in a corner and ruminate over it that it is so frustrating.

Finally, thanks everyone for the comments. They are all useful.

 

[Mal12345]

In reading one of the other threads here, I ran across the following link with information about 5's:

The Distinctions of Type 5

This paragraph especially stood out:



I was taken aback by how familiar this sounds. Yes, I can see how this falls under the heading of unhealthy behavior, which suggests that it should be addressed somehow, but how? My knowledge of enneagram is limited. While I am fairly confident in my type designation (5w6 sp), I am at a loss when it comes to using the enneagram system for actual self-improvement. I've read about wings, tritypes, directions of integration, etc. but always end up wondering: now what do I actually DO?

Have any other 5's been able to use enneagram to effect meaningful change in yourself? How did you do it? Comments from other types are welcome, too.

First, spell out the things that are bothering you. The quoted material mentioned some generalities about unhealthy 5s being out of touch with their emotions. How is this a problem for you?

Get a tough job like mine, something that will blast you out of your comfort zone time and time again. That, and challenging relationships, will create emotional issues that you can't ignore.

In my case, I was determined to take responsibility and not pass the blame for my feelings onto others. Bringing this back around to the self requires constant effort, as the ego is not a self-blamer.

It was also very important for me to hit bottom emotionally when I was 29, as a wake-up call. This is not something that can be planned. It can also be very dangerous because hitting bottom is such a critical moment that can go either way, like being on the edge of a precipice in a very literal sense.

 

[VagrantFarce]

As for fear, I understood that every etype was motivated by fear, but the nature of that fear differed for each type.

It's 5s, 6s and 7s (the head types) that are very specifically driven by fear. This fear is driven by a restless mind that makes the world out to be a much scarier place than it really is.

[youtube=XOuuk9ms0So]fear[/youtube]

Exactly. It is precisely because I am trying to act on this knowledge and not just sit in a corner and ruminate over it that it is so frustrating.

You're doing it the wrong way round - get out into life and find out through experience what life is all about. Then you'll have something to ruminate on later.

 

[Coriolis]

First, spell out the things that are bothering you. The quoted material mentioned some generalities about unhealthy 5s being out of touch with their emotions. How is this a problem for you?

To be honest, it hasn't been a problem; or, if it has, the problems are not on my radar. We all have blind spots, though, and don't always recognize unhealthy or counterproductive behavior in ourselves. The fact that I am generally successful and fulfilled can lead me to assume that all is well. When I read descriptions like the one I posted, however, or even the shared thoughts of people much more in touch with their feeling side, I realize there is a whole dimension to interactions, to life, that I overlook, discount, and do poorly at when I must engage it. I suppose I wonder in some sense what I may be missing, and whether, if I don't take the proverbial stitch in time, something will come crashing down when I least expect it.

In my case, I was determined to take responsibility and not pass the blame for my feelings onto others. Bringing this back around to the self requires constant effort, as the ego is not a self-blamer.

At least I don't do this. I don't blame my feelings on anyone; they just are. Moreover, they are usually beside the point. I do best by focusing on the cause of feelings, especially negative ones, and addressing that in as objective a manner as possible.

It was also very important for me to hit bottom emotionally when I was 29, as a wake-up call. This is not something that can be planned. It can also be very dangerous because hitting bottom is such a critical moment that can go either way, like being on the edge of a precipice in a very literal sense.

I can see this. I have had a couple of serious emotional stressors in my life, but I doubt they would approach the severity of what you are describing. I certainly wouldn't seek that out, but can see how it might be a tremendous learning experience.

 

[Mal12345]

To be honest, it hasn't been a problem; or, if it has, the problems are not on my radar. We all have blind spots, though, and don't always recognize unhealthy or counterproductive behavior in ourselves. The fact that I am generally successful and fulfilled can lead me to assume that all is well. When I read descriptions like the one I posted, however, or even the shared thoughts of people much more in touch with their feeling side, I realize there is a whole dimension to interactions, to life, that I overlook, discount, and do poorly at when I must engage it. I suppose I wonder in some sense what I may be missing, and whether, if I don't take the proverbial stitch in time, something will come crashing down when I least expect it.


At least I don't do this. I don't blame my feelings on anyone; they just are. Moreover, they are usually beside the point. I do best by focusing on the cause of feelings, especially negative ones, and addressing that in as objective a manner as possible.


I can see this. I have had a couple of serious emotional stressors in my life, but I doubt they would approach the severity of what you are describing. I certainly wouldn't seek that out, but can see how it might be a tremendous learning experience.

I offer this example because you perhaps don't know what dysfunctional emotions are like. I had a dysfunctional relationship with my feelings. I used to whip them into a frenzy and then my reason would dare them to make me act on them. (For example, how angry can you make yourself before you have to punch a wall to relieve the tension?) Then one day I lost rational control and almost did act on them, and if I had I probably wouldn't be here today to talk about it.

"I do best by focusing on the cause of feelings." The cause or source of feelings is debatable. And I hate it when people (mainly conservative types) emotionally beat up on me and then state that I caused my feelings and that they are my responsibility. My philosophy is that an emotion requires both a subject and an object, and that both are valid causes, but that it is my responsibility to deal with and act on the object of it and then the emotion takes care of itself. Acting on emotions is really just the common sense method anyway, but it is instinctive to most people. My solution these days is to hold the feelings at bay, without denying or exaggerating them, until a creative solution is discovered, whereas the instinctive types are merely obedient to habitual reactions learned during childhood. This means that their habitual responses may be more or less healthy or unhealthy. I can always tell when I have discovered a good solution when a surge of elation runs through me upon having the idea. So in a sense an emotion for me has become a determiner of truth, or a truth. And acting on the idea is a healthy e-8 response, meaning, an integrating move from 5 to 8.

 

[Coriolis]

"I do best by focusing on the cause of feelings." The cause or source of feelings is debatable. And I hate it when people (mainly conservative types) emotionally beat up on me and then state that I caused my feelings and that they are my responsibility. My philosophy is that an emotion requires both a subject and an object, and that both are valid causes, but that it is my responsibility to deal with and act on the object of it and then the emotion takes care of itself. Acting on emotions is really just the common sense method anyway, but it is instinctive to most people. My solution these days is to hold the feelings at bay, without denying or exaggerating them, until a creative solution is discovered, whereas the instinctive types are merely obedient to habitual reactions learned during childhood. This means that their habitual responses may be more or less healthy or unhealthy. I can always tell when I have discovered a good solution when a surge of elation runs through me upon having the idea. So in a sense an emotion for me has become a determiner of truth, or a truth. And acting on the idea is a healthy e-8 response, meaning, an integrating move from 5 to 8.

So then, responding to a situation based on instinct (as opposed to analysis) is a way for 5's to progress, by incorporating some 8 behavior? This is the kind of advice I was looking for.

When I say "the cause of feelings", I mean the event or circumstance that has led to the (typically negative) feeling. No, I don't consider myself the cause of my feelings, but then I don't blame others either. I might realize I am feeling upset because of something someone said, but I then consider what about it made me upset. If it was just a baseless, empty insult, I can now see it as such, and the bad feeling is gone. If it was a legitimate criticism, I can see that, too, and decide how I might want to address it. Again, bad feeling gone now that I understand the problem and have a course of action.

The positive feeling you mention upon finding a creative solution is what I associate with Ni insights, especially ones that solve big problems simply and elegantly. It's not that I don't feel, I just don't tend to deal with the feelings themselves, merely using them as a barometer that points to more objective conditions.

 

[Elfboy]

[MENTION=9811]Coriolis[/MENTION]
type 8 is characterized by a drive to enact one's will on the world, and this is just the medicine a 5 wanting to integrate needs, to use all that vision, perspective and acquired knowledge proactively to make an impact on the world and see one's will carried out to fruition.

 

[Coriolis]

[MENTION=9811]Coriolis[/MENTION]
type 8 is characterized by a drive to enact one's will on the world, and this is just the medicine a 5 wanting to integrate needs, to use all that vision, perspective and acquired knowledge proactively to make an impact on the world and see one's will carried out to fruition.

I understand this, and for the most part succeed in doing it. What I'm wondering is whether there is a point where remaining emotionally detached about it all is unhealthy, and what enneagram in particular can tell me about that (besides the assessment that unhealthy 5's behave that way).

 

[Elfboy]

I understand this, and for the most part succeed in doing it. What I'm wondering is whether there is a point where remaining emotionally detached about it all is unhealthy, and what enneagram in particular can tell me about that (besides the assessment that unhealthy 5's behave that way).

if that's the case, you sound like you're already pretty healthy, but I suppose reconnecting with passion, enthusiasm and desire are signs that one is an extremely enlightened 5. growth for 5s comes largely with reconnecting with their Id center. a healthy 5 will be passionate and enthusiastic about their work, but it certainly doesn't mean you'll turn into an ESFJ 2 or anything like that

 

[Mal12345]

So then, responding to a situation based on instinct (as opposed to analysis) is a way for 5's to progress, by incorporating some 8 behavior? This is the kind of advice I was looking for.

When I say "the cause of feelings", I mean the event or circumstance that has led to the (typically negative) feeling. No, I don't consider myself the cause of my feelings, but then I don't blame others either. I might realize I am feeling upset because of something someone said, but I then consider what about it made me upset. If it was just a baseless, empty insult, I can now see it as such, and the bad feeling is gone. If it was a legitimate criticism, I can see that, too, and decide how I might want to address it. Again, bad feeling gone now that I understand the problem and have a course of action.

The positive feeling you mention upon finding a creative solution is what I associate with Ni insights, especially ones that solve big problems simply and elegantly. It's not that I don't feel, I just don't tend to deal with the feelings themselves, merely using them as a barometer that points to more objective conditions.

Instinct is how most people react to their emotions. This results in random, automatized behavior as it is based in childhood emotional programming. They always react the same way to the same emotions, and never think to question their emotional reactions, unless perhaps there is some severely negative consequence that they cannot escape from.

I don't behave instinctively, I willfully control and question every powerful emotion I have, and then work to find ways to redirect it into some creative outlet. For example, finding a creative solution to dealing with someone I don't like.

(I know of some enneagramists who recommend acting instinctively, but if I did that my life would really, really suck.)

 

[Rasofy]

I got much more aware of the things that I derive my self esteem from - feeling capable and competent - , and I was able to understand why I was feeling a certain way at given moments. That awareness alone made me able to, for the most part, remove my ego from the equation, which helped me going up a couple of steps towards integration (not necessarily towards En 8 - I believe integration is supposed to be something more embracing. That's part of why I tend to trust Tri Type theory more).

I used to be pretty insecure, but nowadays I don't mind risking making a fool of myself (my posts on this forum probably make it obvious). 5s should learn not to take themselves too seriously. They have to be able to discern whether their actions have a tangible pragmatic purpose or if it just a ego-driven response.

Also, learning how to deal with uncertainty is really important. It's useful to anticipate what could go wrong, but 5s need to be ok with the fact that sometimes they are gonna be catched by surprise. Not many situations are fixed in life.

 

[Mal12345]

I offer this example because you perhaps don't know what dysfunctional emotions are like. I had a dysfunctional relationship with my feelings. I used to whip them into a frenzy and then my reason would dare them to make me act on them. (For example, how angry can you make yourself before you have to punch a wall to relieve the tension?) Then one day I lost rational control and almost did act on them, and if I had I probably wouldn't be here today to talk about it.

That by the way describes an Sx instinctual trait: intensity.

 

[VagrantFarce]

That by the way describes an Sx instinctual trait: intensity.

OK, let's not break down the problem too much, people.

There's not a lot to consider here, [MENTION=9811]Coriolis[/MENTION] - because sitting around endlessly thinking and considering is what you should be working to get away from. Get out, get in, get off. Listen to loud music and throw shit at the wall. Be stupid and get drunk on life. Stop being afraid, and embrace unpredictability - you just need to get out of your head.