[MBTI General] INFJs from the perspective of other types

[Eilonwy]

...
Here's an IRL example. I know a super-cool INFJ female - I worked with her a few years ago now, and we got each other's NF "click" right away. I could tell she liked me, thought I was uber-cool, technically a wizardress and had people skillz to boot. As part of my job, I worked as an additional resource on a couple of her projects, solidifying my status with her, then as time evolved, I came to work directly on an initiative in her department. That was the point where we were attending a lot more of the same meetings. She ran some, and I ran some too as tech resource/POV, and after meetings, we would do a rehash of what we heard. Now, simultaneous to this point in time, I knew she was going through a divorce. Since we were work buds, but not personal buds, I didn't pry into her personal life. I would inquire as to what was polite to ask in the circumstance, naturally, but we had no convos that went into depth on the topic. Now that you know that fact too, dear audience, back to the narrative - so we would rehash these meetings after the fact. I could tell that in some of them, her stress and natural patience was strained. She was tired and sometimes would shut down a meeting IMO a tad prematurely. SO, after a rehash after those situations, I might say privately, "Did that go as well as you hoped?" She would look up at me, puzzled. Oops, I could tell I was off-base - so I would reframe - "You seem a bit tired - I wondered if the meeting dragged you down or went the direction you planned?" That would be met with more puzzlement, and a flash of irritation. I could see in her eyes that our click was starting to be less "clicky" ... I knew she expected me to just "get it" but with her personal issues too, I am not going to presume to just KNOW. It turns out that sometimes at moments like that she WAS carrying personal weight from the stress of her marital breakdown, and I totally get why that would sometimes affect her demeanor in other venues.

BUT - and here's the big but: But my question was an opening, an opportunity - it wasn't meant to imply I knew exactly WHY she was stressed or unhappy or make any kind of judgement on it. It was an offering, from me, an opening to say what was really the issue. And if I would "guess" right and say, "You are stressed, something going with your ex?" SHE WOULD BE MORTIFIED! ("OMG you can tell??!!??") And if I would comment only on the emotional state, it was just a brush-off for reply, "Yes, I'm just a little tired". Well, that really helps.

I mean, I want to enhance the bond, but what is the right question to ask to get to why? Should one never ever try to guess? I know that if I guess wrong too many times, it diminishes our friendship. WHAT IS THE RIGHT QUESTION? (In fact, as alluded to in other's posts, the why doesn't matter that much to me either, I just sense the why is important to INFJ's so I try my best in this regard.) Any INFJ's - please do share the answer!

For me, it would depend on who was asking the question. If it was someone who I have had a good history with and who I trust, I wouldn't get upset. I might not understand exactly what you were trying to get at (Is she asking me about work, or is this an opening to talk about personal things? Yes, I can be that dense sometimes, especially if I am going through personal stresses. My brain is busy churning through my personal crap and thus I'm more inwardly focused and slower on the uptake.), thus you might still get a puzzled look from me, but I would most likely respond somehow and discussion would ensue. If it was someone who's motives I haven't trusted in the past, then I probably would keep the conversation about work while trying to figure out if the question was innocent or baited. Unfortunately, I almost always feel judged by others, but through the years I have come to the conclusion that sometimes that's just me, my inner uncertainty, and has nothing to do with the other person. So, if I have a good history with that person, I assume that if they are judging me, they will tell me so.

As for what is the right question...even I don't know that. Sorry.

Like being nice is THE imperative?

It can be at times.

Also, I don't know what vibes I give off IRL, but I have noticed that my very close friends seem to "walk on eggshells" when they have something critical to say to me. Perhaps it's more that they know I'm sensitive and are trying to spare my feelings. (My family seems to have no problem telling me all of my faults. ) Admittedly, if you are on my "I don't trust your motives" list, I don't take your criticism well. Usually, I will hear it, mull it over and decide if it is valid, even if I don't like it, but you will see that I'm not happy. But if I feel you are genuinely trying to help me and not just rake me over the coals, then I sincerely want to hear what you have to say. I'm working on taking it in quietly and not immediately trying to defend myself.



Editing to add: Just to clarify, someone would have to have a long history of game-playing/unacceptable behavior to get on my "I don't trust your motives" list.

 

[Tiltyred]

Peacebaby, I don't understand why you needed to comment at all, honestly. Like Aphrodite, I find myself really feeling the INFJ in the exchange. I know that look she gave you. *yikes* Because your questions come across to me, putting myself in her position, as disingenuous (pretending that one knows less about something than one really does, for the benefit of anyone who hasn't heard that word). You had all the facts and you came to the right conclusion without her having to say anything. You knew she had stressful personal circumstances + you saw her cut the meeting late + you could see that she was tired. She would not have cut the meeting short if she had the energy to talk.

At the risk of coming across a total pedant -- have you read any Chomsky on transformational grammar? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transformational_grammar
Statements exist in the deep structure of questions. INFJ kind of lives in the deep structure. I am curious what you would say was in the deep structure of your questions.

Also I think we're pretty good at initiating conversation when we want conversation. That could just be me, and I'd be interested from other INFJs if they feel they are fine with asking for a talk when they want one, or just talking when they need to.

I'm saying you don't need to do anything. A silent gesture of support, like, "I'm going to get some coffee, can I get you some?" or just doing it, for example -- I can't think of any others, but maybe you can.

P.S. I really hate to lose my composure at work. I can imagine in that situation feeling on the verge of tears.
I do think you should "just know." Because ... she told you.

 

[OrangeAppled]

This is my perception of INFJ bad behavior, and this is the sort of thing that has led to some of my criticisms of the type (this by no means being an isolated incident in this individual or my experiences with the type IRL). Interestingly, an INFP thread about "INFJs in their life" on another message board is entirely in line with my perspective. Whatever the truth is, this is how INFJs gone bad appear to INFPs.

-----

This story is regarding my INFJ aunt (who has been professionally tested as INFJ, confirmed her type, and even gone to an MBTI seminar).

Some years ago, my grandma (her mom) got VERY ill & was admitted to the hospital. My aunt lives far away, so my ISFJ mom emails her to tell her what has happened. My aunt's response was to say, "You stupid cow. Stop being so dramatic & guilt-tripping me. What do you expect me to do all the way over here?". I am not exaggerating her phrasing or word choices (I see this as their "inferior ESTP bully language" that comes out when angry).

However, my mom is waaaaaay too nice, & so she responded by telling my INFJ aunt that she was just informing her of the situation because my mom assumed my aunt would want to know that their mom was ill, & that she (my ISFJ mom) didn't expect anything from my aunt.

Why did my aunt respond this way? I will tell you why, or how I see it.

She felt guilt, yes, but she could not & would not accept responsibility for it. She had to pin her negative feelings on someone/something else. Living far away, she has done little for her aging mother, rarely even talking to her, leaving all the responsibility to my mom. There is a history of tension there with her mom as well. So my aunt, upon hearing her mom is ill, feels guilt that her mom could die & that she has not been there for her. The way to ease the guilt is blame my mom for exaggerating the situation. If she reframes it as not being dire, but instead sees my mom as exaggerating the illness, then she doesn't have to feel guilt for not being there because her mom is not really going to die. Now, she can easily pin the source of guilt on my mom's supposed exaggeration.

-----

I see many INFJs responding to emotional pain with what appears to be a perspective shift which eases that pain by removing personal responsibility. They create a new context that has nothing to do with reality, but soothes their feelings. This new, distorted perspective explains away any blame they might have to accept otherwise. Now, they don't have to change themselves or their actions; instead, they insist others change for them, & they either cut them off or manipulate them to if they won't adhere to the INFJ's wishes. This makes them impossible to reason with; you either have to let them trample your needs so their wishes are met or you lose your relationship with them.

For the typically easy-going INFP, the latter becomes unacceptable when it crosses a value boundary; we will not be bullied that far. Essentially we feel we've been given an ultimatum to choose the person or our own values, which is frustrating when we don't see the world in such simple dichotomies. The INFJ will not hear alternate options; it's like they get stuck on the one way something HAS to be. It's extremely self-sabotaging in the long-run, as it hurts them more than others as they box themselves into a corner like that.

I wonder at what point these people finally take an honest look at themselves & realize they have been a major source of their own problems, that they're not victims whose only flaw is being too perfect & too caring. Do they have to hit rock bottom to open their eyes up?

In the case of my aunt, it took her husband leaving for her to realize a big part of her marital problems were due to emasculating her husband with her tyrant behavior. She had to acknowledge her role in their problems. They reconciled, and her behavior towards him now is notably better (she doesn't bully him or degrade him as much anymore, the way she did with my mom in the example above).

 

[PeaceBaby]

Peacebaby, I don't understand why you needed to comment at all, honestly.

I commented because that's what we did, every time, after each meeting.

I noted her actions THAT DAY and I asked because I wanted to help her with what was on her heart, I didn't give a crap about the meeting then.

Like Aphrodite, I find myself really feeling the INFJ in the exchange. I know that look she gave you. *yikes* Because your questions come across to me, putting myself in her position, as disingenuous (pretending that one knows less about something than one really does, for the benefit of anyone who hasn't heard that word). You had all the facts and you came to the right conclusion without her having to say anything. You knew she had stressful personal circumstances + you saw her cut the meeting late + you could see that she was tired. She would not have cut the meeting short if she had the energy to talk.

You are adding details into the story I have not shared. I was previously told by her that there was marital breakdown, but that information was shared months prior to this particular example. I didn't have all the facts on that given day, see, that's the point. There was no way for me to know THAT DAY what was going on in her life. I asked an opening question with my loving, caring face (go look at the andy warhol on the profile page, that's "happy me" even if it's an arty thing) and I was met with resistance. I'm not daft of course, I knew in that moment somehow I tread on dangerous ground, but THAT DAY there was no way for me to know the WHY. Except by magic. And I am pretty magical, but not quite that magical.

At the risk of coming across a total pedant -- have you read any Chomsky on transformational grammar? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transformational_grammar
Statements exist in the deep structure of questions. INFJ kind of lives in the deep structure. I am curious what you would say was in the deep structure of your questions.

In this instance, I'm not that deep tilty. There's no hidden meaning. I might like to "tread light" because I am scared of offending anyone, and ask in a round-about way, but what I ask is what I ask. There is little to nothing else to it. There never has been. I'm just not wired for it. I feel your pain and I ask you about it. Period.

I mean, think of ESTJ's - there is a TOTALITY of zero hidden meaning in what they say. Zero.

(Ooh, actually I had a little joke at Z's expense yesterday, but that was in good fun and I sent him a thousand hugs after.)

Perhaps it bears noting that Chomsky is an Ni dom.

Also I think we're pretty good at initiating conversation when we want conversation. That could just be me, and I'd be interested from other INFJs if they feel they are fine with asking for a talk when they want one, or just talking when they need to.

INFJ's want to be known, but in the knowing, there's this push / pull. It's not all give and it's not all take. In this example, I thought we were close enough friends at that time to go a place where she could share more openly. I was incorrect, and I FREELY open myself to censure here knowing FULL WELL nearly every INFJ would pounce on me offering this "to-INFJ-ears" buffoonish example of a chat that went "wrong."

Just realize that in my example & the resultant response, you are helping me prove the points of the thread back on themselves - INFJ's can often expect that people are mind-readers, that they assume other details without knowing all the facts and make projections about my character (I was obtuse, I was not trusted, I was insensitive), that there's this expectation that everyone SHOULD just KNOW when to say or not say anything and that INFJ's sometimes begin an examination on an issue from the details allowing these to be the determinant of relevant emotion instead of emotions informing details.

Goodness, you'll hardly meet a person who more desires to empathize and understand than myself, and I will be summarily chastized here.

It kind of hurts my feelings because it makes assumptions about my character, but I opened myself up to it, so I'll ride it through.

Here, I'll share a little more too of THAT DAY. Since I am not a total clown, after getting a couple of funny looks I beat a hasty albeit caring retreat. I sent her a short e-mail of support. "Hope all is OK ..."

I'm saying you don't need to do anything. A silent gesture of support, like, "I'm going to get some coffee, can I get you some?" or just doing it, for example -- I can't think of any others, but maybe you can.

P.S. I really hate to lose my composure at work. I can imagine in that situation feeling on the verge of tears.
I do think you should "just know." Because ... she told you.

You're saying I should just know. But that's just not fair. To me.

 

[Tiltyred]

I so don't get you that I don't know what to say, so this must be important and I will re-read and think on it some more. Your point of view is so foreign to me that I can't grok it, I have to go back and look line by line and try to piece together how you could not know and how it is unfair. This is good stuff, thanks for the feedback.

Sorry to perpetually go back and edit, but I'm doing it again -- the feeling I get (probably completely wrong, I'm just putting it out there) is that you feel someone else's pain=now you are in pain=now you want to resolve it. Is that true?

P.P.S. It's not about you being deep -- everyone is that deep. It's the nature of language. Every question is a statement -- there is an assumption behind every question. According to Chomsky. This is the subject of linguistics and it's useful sometimes with misunderstandings to analyze in that way.

 

[Tiltyred]

But "How are things with you?" isn't direct, not at all.

I can't offer over Te honesty or I'll be shot, "Well, that meeting sucked, why did you cut it short" or Fe honesty, "No offense, but it felt like those people were annoyed wondering why you left the group before listening to them" -- haha, where does that leave me?

Maybe there's no right question at all. Just walk away slowly ...

Isn't the above your stating what the statements were behind your questions??

 

[uumlau]

There's no hidden meaning.

...

You're saying I should just know. But that's just not fair. To me.

This summarizes what INFJs don't get about NFPs. Or perhaps it might be more fair to say, "don't believe about NFPs?"

Isn't the above your stating what the statements were behind your questions??

This summarizes what NFPs don't get about INFJs.

PB, imagine someone reading every possible inane insult behind everything you say, especially if you are approaching personal matters.

Tilty, imagine someone meaning the very best, but completely unable to avoid putting one's foot in one's mouth.

PB, my best advice as INFP/INFJ interlocutor (translating with common Ni with INFJ and Fi with INFP), is to be "emotionally blunt" rather than "factually blunt". Fi/Te tends toward the latter. But every Te-ish statement becomes infused with emotional meaning. So instead of asking why the meeting didn't go well, just ask, "Hey, are you all right? I'm concerned about you. Is there anything I can do to help?" (Tilty, feel free to correct/adjust my suggestion.) Notice the lack of "factual" input, just emotional concern.

Tilty, my advice to you is that if you have an inkling that you're dealing with an NFP, don't read anything into what they're saying. Give them the benefit of the doubt as you would a good friend (not that you have to otherwise treat them as a good friend). Just accept that some people don't pick up on emotional cues as quickly and efficiently as you do ... just as I have to accept that most other people don't understand quantum physics as adroitly as I do. Once Ni doms realize that other people are just looking at the world very differently than we do, it becomes much easier to give them space and not assume that they're just stupid (the INTJ assumption) or evil (the INFJ assumption).

When I'm very upset, NFPs and NFJs react very differently to me. The NFP will just hug me, and listen to me if I need listening to. They'll let me be me. The NFJ ... well, let me use an example of an INFJ best friend of mine. My Mom had just died (back in 2000). He said, "This is the only time I've ever seen you fazed by anything." Note the tone and implications, he's not directly offering any sort of sympathy or comfort, but he is offering kind of a back-handed compliment. He could have said something along the lines of, "Dude, you're f-cked up." (Which I kind of was.) Instead, he's both kind of admiring an aspect of my personality (never being fazed), but also implying that he understands the depths of my pain by noting how exceptional it is that I'm not my usual self. Note that he feels compelled to analyze my feelings, however circumspectly, which an NFP would not (or rather, would not talk about to me unless I directly asked).

NFPs tend to need/give that raw emotional input/output. Fi tends to express things as an emotional state of being. NFJs tend to convey an emotional meaning that is intended to be helpful/supportive/nudging/concerned, but is rarely directly so. Fe tends to express things as an emotional meaning/purpose.

 

[Fidelia]

Lol! I would have felt PB's statements as offensively as the others did, putting myself in the aforementioned INFJ's position. However from what I know, PB would not be intending to make anyone feel that way. It's just a difference in what each type finds supportive/offensive. I would find it deeply embarrassing to have someone respond as PB did, and yet it is hard for me then to know how to appropriately comfort an INFP, because to me it just feels wrong (while my way feels uncomfortable to them).

I think umlauu summarized the differences quite nicely. INFJs honestly don't think they are reading offensive meaning into something. To them, it is literally a statement. That's why PB saw two INFJs immediately say something along the lines of "I honestly don't see how you could see it any other way". I would read the "But I honestly DIDN'T know" response as disengenuous had it not been for multiple other Fe/Fi threads where I have seen the same kinds of exchanges. I would agree with umlauu in how to forumulate a response to us vs a Fi user.

 

[Eilonwy]

...
You're saying I should just know. But that's just not fair. To me.

It took me a long time to come to this realization.

 

[Seymour]

Hmmm... true to type I'm not seeing PB's questions as offensive. It seems like PB's questions leave plenty of room for her coworker to say "I didn't sleep well last night" or "I had a stressful work day" or give any number of technically true but non-informative responses.

PB's question could be construed to be disingenuous... but only if one was certain she knew the real cause. PB didn't with any certainly. I wouldn't have known in that situation, either. How could another person know for sure?

Given that, would it have been better not to comment, even though perhaps the other person might need a sympathetic ear? Is pretending obliviousness not a kind of disingenuousness, too?

I also admit to being terrified of crossing some sort of Fe boundary without realizing it. I'm not the most consistent person in the world (although I'm good at being focused on the current task or situation)... and sometimes that no doubt gets read as lack of caring and/or trustworthiness. I sometimes feel like I'm likely to get judged by a standard I don't even perceive, much less understand.

Now posts on this forum and reading about Fe have made me a bit more aware, but still I fear mis-stepping. I feel like I'm aware there's a language I don't fully understand, but that's a far cry from being fluent.

 

[OrangeAppled]

Why is the NFP is the one who always has to adjust their style of communication & be the one to give the benefit of the doubt? That double standard is unfair. Why won't INFJs meet people in the middle? Why must everyone bend to meet them on their terms? It's in line with those Ni descriptions saying they "seek to regulate everything according to their own ideas".

 

[AphroditeGoneAwry]

Because it was the nfp who made the first move.

 

[OrangeAppled]

^ Outside of PB's situation, in general, the NFP is still the one expected to adjust.

 

[AphroditeGoneAwry]

How so?

 

[OrangeAppled]

I gave examples in my previous posts.

 

[AphroditeGoneAwry]

I don't know about manipulation and unhealthy stuff in your previous posts. Just be direct, that's all I say in dealing with Ni doms. Honest and direct. I don't have probs with my infp friends. Anymore.

 

[Z Buck McFate]

I could tell that in some of them, her stress and natural patience was strained. She was tired and sometimes would shut down a meeting IMO a tad prematurely. SO, after a rehash after those situations, I might say privately, "Did that go as well as you hoped?" She would look up at me, puzzled. Oops, I could tell I was off-base - so I would reframe - "You seem a bit tired - I wondered if the meeting dragged you down or went the direction you planned?" That would be met with more puzzlement, and a flash of irritation. I could see in her eyes that our click was starting to be less "clicky" ... I knew she expected me to just "get it" but with her personal issues too, I am not going to presume to just KNOW. It turns out that sometimes at moments like that she WAS carrying personal weight from the stress of her marital breakdown, and I totally get why that would sometimes affect her demeanor in other venues.

BUT - and here's the big but: But my question was an opening, an opportunity - it wasn't meant to imply I knew exactly WHY she was stressed or unhappy or make any kind of judgement on it. It was an offering, from me, an opening to say what was really the issue. And if I would "guess" right and say, "You are stressed, something going with your ex?" SHE WOULD BE MORTIFIED! ("OMG you can tell??!!??") And if I would comment only on the emotional state, it was just a brush-off for reply, "Yes, I'm just a little tired". Well, that really helps.

I mean, I want to enhance the bond, but what is the right question to ask to get to why? Should one never ever try to guess? I know that if I guess wrong too many times, it diminishes our friendship. WHAT IS THE RIGHT QUESTION? (In fact, as alluded to in other's posts, the why doesn't matter that much to me either, I just sense the why is important to INFJ's so I try my best in this regard.) Any INFJ's - please do share the answer!

So - even though, to me, I didn't offer a concrete WHY, I was asking a question - the INFJ hears my question somehow as the whole package, the whole deal. I have to get every part right or I am wrong. Or I am making some big-ass judgement on her!

Does that help sort this stuff out at all?

You know, there’s a good chance she might have thought you were reading too much into her expression/behavior. We tend not to be *present*. I’ll notice my work and the job I’m doing (to the best of my ability)- but if my mind is loaded down with stressors, the last thing I notice is how I’m feeling. Part is this is probably e5, but it seems to me like the INFJs I know are also like this. Like many of us have said, we don’t put too much weight on how we are feeling in any given moment (especially- if not exclusively- the negative feelings), and having someone else give it much weight feels.....kinda weird. Having someone point out how we feel is almost distracting because then we also have to worry if THAT is going to be a problem, if the person is going to have a problem with something about us that we don’t even normally pay attention to. Again, maybe isn't as universal to INFJ as I think, it's possible my INFJ friends are like this because they're similarities beyond simply being INFJ. (I even have one who will get really, really angry if someone points out how she's feeling- she'll deny it wholeheartedly and believe every word she says on the matter. We can be that oblivious.)

Is it clear to you that I used the question as an opener, to talk about her, not about the meeting?

I’m with Eilonway, if it were me those questions would have confused me (especially if I’m stressed). My best guess (as I initially read your post) is that she was irritated because she didn’t want to have to stop and think about if the meeting literally went the way she wanted it to or to quickly figure out ‘the right answer’ (by which, I mean figuring out an innocuous answer to put the other person’s mind at ease). It’s kind of like thinking you just finished running a 5 mile stretch (iow: if she was stressed, she was probably glad to be out of the meeting because putting up a ‘front’ can be exhausting) and being told the finish line just moved forward about 20 yards. Plus what AGA and others have said, there’s *some* judgment laced in with it, like it’s a problem that she’s stressed because it’s affecting work performance. But honestly- this is probably just me- I probably wouldn’t have gotten angry so much as felt even worse that it was affecting my job performance so much that someone said something to me.

I agree with others that a flat out “How are you doing?” would probably be best. I’m even a little puzzled about how that could seem less direct to you than your questions. Maybe that has something to do with your personal dynamic with her. I know there are some people I know with whom that question would sound very generic and misplaced.

It's like you are asking me if a dress makes you look pretty. I have a lot of options in how I choose to answer, see? It would depend on SO MANY variables... When an OP says, I want your perspective, it's assumed you want truth and generally it's given by an Fi person in an unvarnished way. We interpret this as asking for the first impression, the first thoughts, the "what do you really think" way. That's not to imply we totally think what we express of every INFJ, or don't understand all the myriad of factors that might go into the answer on an individual case-by-case basis. We're offering over that impression, and since most people don't really want to know if a dress makes them look ugly or frumpy, it's hard to say honestly what the answer is.

When I offer you candor, I need you to realize I put myself OUT THERE to do so, I risk raising someone's hackles, and to me personally that's pretty stressful and risky-feeling. There are people who like me less than they would simply for this fact alone on the forum.

First: I want to point out, ‘we’ didn’t ask the question- one of us asked the question. If and when I ask someone the ol’ “do these pants make my butt look big?” question, I usually do the mental preparation of hearing anything (because I’d damn well prefer to hear the truth- and people don’t continue to offer truth if I react badly). So there’s that- it’s almost like overhearing a samesy ask someone and overhearing the answer (and knowing it applies somewhat to me). I’m going to admit, I totally did the same thing, made a big list of responses to comments. Then I read your post and was like “uh-oh.” So I didn’t post it (actually feeling relieved I saw your comment first). Having read the op- I did realize someone posed the question, it’s not like you guys just showed up and starting saying “Here’s my opinion of INFJs”…..but I hadn’t worked that part through before feeling the need to comment (lol?).

The dress analogy was good, and I totally get your point. Having someone ask an opinion- then get upset at the answer- can be sorta like setting off a stadium blow-horn inches from your face. I responded to Starry’s comment more thoroughly in my blog because I didn’t want to derail this thread.

 

[Anew Leaf]

Maybe I am missing the context here... but it seems to me that you guys want us to be mind readers or something.

If I ask you if something is wrong it's because I am picking up on a vibe that something is amiss, but I respect the wishes of the other person if they think that:

A- I am the wrong person to confide in.
B- This is the wrong time to confide.
C- This isn't something I want to make into a Big Deal.

Thinking someone is being inauthentic because they don't leap forward with "Aha! I know what's wrong here!" is insulting.

Relationships should be about meeting people halfway. If an NFP asks "hey something up?" they are going outside of their box a little and checking in with you.

I am actually 80% confused by some of the responses here too. I work with two INFJs that I am very close to, and I never encounter this kind of stuff with them. I ask them what's going on in their lives or if they are having a bad day and they tell me what is going on. I usually hear "Aw, thanks for noticing... I am feeling kind of bummed... Not sure what it is exactly that is bugging me but here is what is going on in my life *Plops ideas down*" Neither one has ever come back with a "You don't know why I am upset?!" They just seem to appreciate that I am willing to talk about stuff.

On the flipside of things, here is how the "you should just know it's X" comes off when it is done to non-INFJs:

INFJ: You seem upset. It must be because of X and Y, huh?
Me: (in head - X no, but Y yes, and also Z, what the heck... why am I being boxed in like this? Why is this person assuming why I am upset? Maybe I have my period! Maybe some jerky mcjerkface just cut me off on the highway! Maybe I don't like you today!) Uh... not exactly... More like Y and some Z.
INFJ: No... I really think it's X and Y... I can just tell.

^^^ Had an INFJ friend I eventually had to drop because every conversation was like that. She would "decide" what I was upset about and would tunnel vision on that and refused to let go. I couldn't deal.

 

[PeaceBaby]

This summarizes what INFJs don't get about NFPs. Or perhaps it might be more fair to say, "don't believe about NFPs?"

@bold: indeed.

PB, imagine someone reading every possible inane insult behind everything you say, especially if you are approaching personal matters.

*sigh*

Tilty, imagine someone meaning the very best, but completely unable to avoid putting one's foot in one's mouth.

Reduced to clown status ...

PB, my best advice as INFP/INFJ interlocutor (translating with common Ni with INFJ and Fi with INFP), is to be "emotionally blunt" rather than "factually blunt". Fi/Te tends toward the latter. But every Te-ish statement becomes infused with emotional meaning. So instead of asking why the meeting didn't go well, just ask, "Hey, are you all right? I'm concerned about you. Is there anything I can do to help?" (Tilty, feel free to correct/adjust my suggestion.) Notice the lack of "factual" input, just emotional concern.

Appreciate the interlocution.

Just accept that some people don't pick up on emotional cues as quickly and efficiently as you do ...

I beg to differ, however. I picked up on pretty much every emotional cue in the room, and there could have been a half-dozen reasons why that meeting went the way it did. I don't want to make any assumptions why, so therefore I don't. So why does that mean I am the one left holding the emo-bag labelled "dolt"?

(Oh wait, it's because ... Fe and Te always think they are ... right!)

NFJs tend to convey an emotional meaning that is intended to be helpful/supportive/nudging/concerned, but is rarely directly so. Fe tends to express things as an emotional meaning/purpose.

ENFJ's though ... they'll tackle it with you, not freeze you out. What accounts for the difference?

Isn't the above your stating what the statements were behind your questions??

They were possible variations, but by no means all of the ways the meeting could have been interpreted, nor did they represent my personal opinion. Just an assemblage of the opinions kind of mixing up in the room by the end. In this situation, I kind of look at each person and get a different vibe / feeling / opinion.

Lol! I would have felt PB's statements as offensively as the others did, putting myself in the aforementioned INFJ's position. However from what I know, PB would not be intending to make anyone feel that way. It's just a difference in what each type finds supportive/offensive. I would find it deeply embarrassing to have someone respond as PB did, and yet it is hard for me then to know how to appropriately comfort an INFP, because to me it just feels wrong (while my way feels uncomfortable to them).

@bold: it's the reason I keep being drawn back to these conversations ... I feel like I am hopefully building enough credibility to be taken at face value.

I think umlauu summarized the differences quite nicely. INFJs honestly don't think they are reading offensive meaning into something. To them, it is literally a statement. That's why PB saw two INFJs immediately say something along the lines of "I honestly don't see how you could see it any other way". I would read the "But I honestly DIDN'T know" response as disengenuous had it not been for multiple other Fe/Fi threads where I have seen the same kinds of exchanges. I would agree with umlauu in how to forumulate a response to us vs a Fi user.

I think you don't think it could be seen any other way because the Fe filter enables you to possess a perspective of correctness. Just like Te. Just like that.

It took me a long time to come to this realization.

I feel like I'm aware there's a language I don't fully understand, but that's a far cry from being fluent.

Yes, and I feel so close to cracking it, but I can't. It's sometimes as close as my finger-tips, then something will happen as above and I'm scratching my head. So, practice hardly makes perfect in this instance!

Close though, sometimes close.

Why is the NFP is the one who always has to adjust their style of communication & be the one to give the benefit of the doubt? That double standard is unfair. Why won't INFJs meet people in the middle? Why must everyone bend to meet them on their terms? It's in line with those Ni descriptions saying they "seek to regulate everything according to their own ideas".

I do ask myself the same questions ... but being married to a Te dom, I just find the comparison to Fe so very analogous. My husband will say, "Of course I think I'm right! If you didn't agree, why didn't you say so!" But it's so much easier for him to accept my POV that I can't understand why it's SO MUCH HARDER with Fe! lol, I do know why, but ... well, it is what it is.

... in general, the NFP is still the one expected to adjust.

It's true, that. Don't have an answer. I'm so bendy already, it's not an issue every day thankfully.

 

[Crescent Fresh]

So, when is the time? How is this determined by an outside observer who wants to be of assistance?

Once again, I can't speak for all INFJs. But when it comes to me, it's all about eye contact. If you noticed that I'm trying hard to avoid *any* eye contact during such stage, that's a clear sign that I am still sorting things out in my mind alone. I tend to give obvious signals by avoiding eye contact (and facial expressions, as we normally can't hide it well) in order to avoid being confronted by others when we needed the moment to ourselves.

Though if I started to initiate a "non-work" related conversation with you (things like what's your plan for the weekend/what do you think about this movie), then that's a clear sign that we've recuperated and perhaps, are ready to talk about what's bordering us. Usually we'll start with small talk and "we" will find a way to change the topic and addressing to you what's really bordering us, in private of course.

Then again, that's just me and I'm not sure if other INFJs do things similar as I do.